Jul 21, 2021 Audit and Finance Committee

ITEM ONE, WHICH IS THE, UH, MINUTES, WHICH WE HAVE A REQUEST FROM STAFF POSTPONE.

RIGHT? LOOKS LIKE WE HAVE FORUM.

SO IT IS NOW 10:25 AM, UH, COUNCIL MEMBER, ALL THIRD CHAIR OF THE AUDIT AND FINANCE COMMITTEE.

AND WE WILL RECONVENE THE AUDIT FINANCE COMMITTEE SESSION.

UM, COLLEAGUES WANT TO TAKE UP

[1. Approve the minutes of the Audit and Finance Committee meeting of June 21, 2021.]

UM, IF I'VE NO OBJECTION, WE WILL POSTPONE, UM, THAT MINUTES FROM THE LAST MEETING, UM, TO OUR NEXT MEETING.

HM.

SEEING NO OBJECTIONS, UM, WE WILL MOVE THAT FORWARD AT THE MOMENT ON THE DINOSAUR OR MYSELF COUNCIL MEMBER, TOBER AND COUNCIL MEMBER POOL.

UM, THE NEXT ITEM THAT WE WANT

[2. Discussion and possible action regarding COAERS Trustee Candidate Evaluation and Recommendations (Financial Services Department).]

TO TAKE UP IS WHAT WE JUST FINISHED DISCUSSING AN EXECUTIVE SESSION, WHICH,

[00:05:01]

UM, IS ITEM TWO, UM, FOR APPOINTMENTS FOR THE COERCE TRUSTEE CANDIDATE APPOINTMENT.

AND I WANT TO THANK ALL OF OUR CANDIDATES AND THEIR WILLINGNESS TO SERVE OUR COMMUNITY.

UH, WHEN YOU HAVE, IF YOU'RE NOT THE PERSON THAT WE'RE PUTTING FORWARD, I WANT TO ENCOURAGE YOU TO CONSIDER APPLYING TO SERVE ON OUR APRS BOARD.

WE WILL HAVE AN UPCOMING OPENING FOR THAT.

AND WE ALSO HAVE OTHER, UM, CITY BOARDS THAT COMMISSION OPPORTUNITIES.

UH, WE WERE REALLY PLEASED TO HAVE SO MANY QUALIFIED CANDIDATES, COUNCIL MEMBER POOL THAT YOU WANT TO THINK OF.

I WOULD, I WOULD MAKE THE MOTION TO APPOINT, TO REPLACE THREE ON THE CITY BUS EMPLOYEES, RETIREMENT SYSTEM BOARD FOR A SECOND.

WE ARE AFTER SECONDS.

UM, ALL THOSE IN FAVOR OF COUNCIL MEMBER KELLY, ARE YOU WITH US TO VOTE OR VOTING OR YOU DO WANT TO SPEAK UP.

SO THOSE IN FAVOR.

THE NEXT ITEM IS ITEM FIVE, WHICH IS EVENTS TO THE OFTEN CONVENTION ENTERPRISES FOR NOMINATIONS.

SO I HAVE A COUNCIL MEMBER TOBO COUNCIL POOL, MAYOR ADLER COUNCIL MEMBER KELLY, ARE YOU VOTING? OKAY, SO WE WILL BE MOVING FORWARD WITH, UM, KELLY CROOK FOR PLACE THREE.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH TO OUR FINANCIAL STATUS, UM, FOR THOSE RECOMMENDATIONS.

UM,

[5. Austin Convention Enterprises board nominations discussion and possible action.]

UM, WHAT DID YOU WANT TO SPEAK TO THIS BEFORE OR TO PROMOTION? SURE.

UM, APPRECIATE THE CITY MANAGER WORKING WITH CITY STAFF AND OUR LEGAL OFFICE AND OUR FINANCIAL OFFICE TO BRING FORTH TWO REALLY GREAT CANDIDATES TO BE NOMINATED, TO FILL THE VACANCIES ARE ON THE ACE BOARD, LEE CRAWFORD FROM LAW.

YOU ALL GO LEAVE REALLY WELL FOR A SUPER LONG TIME.

THERE'S A BIO OF HIM IN YOUR CUP AND KIM OLIVAREZ, WHO HAS BEEN, UM, HEADING UP OUR OFFICE OF PERFORMANCE MANAGEMENT.

AND I THINK IS NOW PART WHAT, WHAT OFFICES THAT NOW PART OF DIANA, CAN YOU HELP ME WITH THAT? OR ED, I CAN HELP YOU.

COUNCIL MEMBER OF THE OPPOSITE PERFORMANCE MANAGEMENT IS PART OF THE FINANCIAL SERVICES DEPARTMENT.

UM, I ALSO DO WANT TO SAY THOUGH THAT, UH, KIM, ALL OF OURS WAS RECENTLY PROMOTED FROM THAT POSITION THAT YOU'VE BEEN IN FOR A LONG WHILE TO DEPUTY CFO OF THE CITY.

THAT WAS, AND THAT WAS THE CASE THAT I REALLY WANTED TO FOCUS ON, UH, CONGRATULATIONS TO KIM FOR THAT ADVANCEMENT.

AND I THINK BOTH SHE AND LEE WILL BE, UH, BRILLIANT, UM, UH, ADDITIONS TO, UH, THE REALLY IMPORTANT WORK THAT'S HAPPENING WITH OUR A SPORT.

SO I WOULD MAKE THAT MOTION TO MAKE THOSE RECOMMENDATIONS TO THE FULL COUNCIL FOR THOSE NOMINATIONS.

AND I SEE KIM IS HERE AND AT LEE IS PROBABLY THERE'S LEE.

I SEE HIS NAME.

AND I SEE A SECOND FROM MAYOR ADLER.

ARE THERE ANY OTHER COMMENTS OR LOTS OF NUGGETS THAT WANTS TO SAY ANYTHING? GREAT.

SO SEEING DONE, UM, LET'S TAKE A VOTE, ALL THOSE IN FAVOR OF APPOINTING THOSE TWO AND THAT'S YEAH.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR SERVING, UH, MR. CRAWFORD AND THE SPELL OF OURS.

TO MOVE ON TO ITEM THREE.

ALL RIGHT.

SO NOW WE'RE GOING

[3. Discussion and possible action regarding Austin Police Department’s Early Intervention System for Officers Audit (City Auditor’s Office).]

I WANT TO WELCOME OUR COLLEAGUE SANDRA FOR MADISON TO THE VIRTUAL DIOCESE TO JOIN US FOR THIS PORTION OF OUR MEETING, AT LEAST, UM, AND, UM, WOULD INVITE THE AUDITOR'S OFFICE TO MAKE THEIR PRESENTATION.

I WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT WE ALSO NEED TO GET SOME UPD FOLKS IN THAT WE HAVE THEM.

UM, TODAY'S APD AUDIT TIES DIRECTLY TO ARE RE-IMAGINING PUBLIC SAFETY EFFORTS.

UM, THE CITY AUDITOR WAS TAPPED TO CONDUCT THIS AUDIT AS PART OF THE REIMAGINING PUBLIC SAFETY PROCESS.

AND IT'S COMPREHENSIVE ANALYSIS OF APD AND PUBLIC SAFETY MORE BROADLY, UM, DEVELOPING A MODERN, ACCURATE DATA-DRIVEN EARLY INTERVENTION SYSTEM.

ISN'T KEY TOP ON IT IN THE CONVERSATION AROUND USE OF FORCE, PROVING TRAINING AND RESOURCES FOR OFFICERS CREATING A MORE TRUSTING OPEN CULTURE AT ABD AND IMPROVING OUTCOMES THAT BENEFIT OFFICERS AND COMMUNITY MEMBERS.

UM, THIS AUDIT BUILDS ALSO FROM PAST WORK OUTSIDE OF RPS.

UM, AND ALSO FROM THE MAYOR PROTONS RESOLUTION 66 FROM DECEMBER OF 2019 AND ITEM 96 ON THE JUNE 11TH, 2020 MEETING.

UM, AND I WILL JUST FLAG IN BOTH OF THOSE RESOLUTIONS.

I HAD AMENDMENTS RELATED TO, UM, IDENTIFYING AT-RISK OFFICERS.

SO THIS IS SOMETHING THAT IS IMPORTANT TO ME.

UM, AND I WANT TO THANK ALSO APD MANAGEMENT FOR JOINING US FOR THIS

[00:10:01]

DISCUSSION AS WELL.

SO I'D LIKE TO INVITE PENNY AUDITOR'S OFFICE TO SPEAK, AND THEN WE WILL HEAR, UH, THE MANAGEMENT RESPONSE FROM, UH, SO, UH, COREY STOKE CITY AUDITOR, AND TO DIFFERENT.

WE WANT TO PRESENT THIS MODEL TO THE APDS EARLY INTERVENTION SYSTEM, UM, FOR POLICE OFFICERS AND, UM, THE, UH, MANAGER OF THE SONNET WAS PATRICK JOHNSON, THE LEAD ON THE SIDE, IT WAS KATE MURDOCH.

AND KATE'S GOING TO PRESENT TO YOU TODAY.

SO HOPEFULLY KATE, YOUR AUDIO VIDEO IS WORKING.

CAN YOU HEAR ME HERE? YES.

ALL RIGHT, GO AHEAD.

GOOD MORNING, COUNCIL MEMBERS, AS COREY SAID, MY NAME IS KATE MURDOCH AND I WILL BE PRESENTING THE FINDINGS FOR OUR AUDIT OF THE AUSTIN POLICE DEPARTMENTS, EARLY INTERVENTION SYSTEM FOR OFFICERS.

BEFORE PRESENTING OUR FINDINGS, I'LL GIVE A BRIEF OVERVIEW OF WHAT AN EARLY INTERVENTION SYSTEM IS AND HOW AUSTIN SYSTEM WORKS.

AUSTIN'S EARLY INTERVENTION SYSTEM IS CALLED THE GUIDANCE ADVISORY PROGRAM OR GAP FOR SHORT.

THE PURPOSE OF THE PROGRAM IS TO PROACTIVELY IDENTIFY OFFICERS WHO MAY NEED ADDITIONAL SUPPORT TO DO THEIR JOB SAFELY AND EFFECTIVELY.

EARLY INTERVENTION SYSTEMS ARE SEPARATE FROM THE DISCIPLINARY PROCESS AND ARE MEANT TO ADDRESS OFFICER PERFORMANCE AND WELLNESS ISSUES.

THESE SYSTEMS WORK BY TRACKING VARIOUS PERFORMANCE INDICATORS, APDS PROGRAM TRACKS, THREE INDICATORS, RESPONSE TO RESISTANCE INCIDENTS, MORE COMMONLY KNOWN AS USE OF FORCE INTERNAL AFFAIRS COMPLAINTS AND USE OF SICK LEAVE.

WHEN AN OFFICER CROSSES A PRESET THRESHOLD FOR ONE OF THESE INDICATORS, THEY ACTIVATE IN THE SYSTEM AND MANAGEMENT IS ALERTED THAT THE OFFICER MAY NEED INTERVENTION OR SUPPORT.

THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE CITES THREE KEY BENEFITS OF A WELL IMPLEMENTED EARLY INTERVENTION SYSTEM, IMPROVING SUPERVISOR'S ABILITY TO MONITOR EMPLOYEE PERFORMANCE, AIDING EMPLOYEES AND CORRECTING THEIR OWN BEHAVIOR.

WHEN IT DEPARTS FROM DEPARTMENT EXPECTATIONS, STRENGTHENING PUBLIC CONFIDENCE IN LAW ENFORCEMENT, THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE RECOMMENDS SEVEN BEST PRACTICES FOR ESTABLISHING AN EFFECTIVE EARLY INTERVENTION SYSTEM.

THESE PRACTICES INCLUDE ESTABLISHING GOOD PROCESSES, COLLECTING GOOD DATA, PROVIDING APPROPRIATE SUPPORT SERVICES TO ADDRESS BEHAVIORAL ISSUES IDENTIFIED BY THE PROGRAM CONTINUOUSLY MONITORING AND IMPROVING THE PROGRAM TO ENSURE IT'S EFFECTIVE GENERATING BUY-IN AMONG ALL EMPLOYEES IN THE DEPARTMENT PROVIDING ADEQUATE TRAINING ON HOW TO USE THE PROGRAM AND FOSTERING TRANSPARENCY WITH STAKEHOLDERS.

WE USE THIS FRAMEWORK TO EVALUATE APDS PROGRAM.

WE MADE TWO FINDINGS AND ONE ADDITIONAL OBSERVATION IN THIS AUDIT.

OUR FIRST FINDING ADDRESSES OPERATIONS.

WE FOUND THAT THE AUSTIN POLICE DEPARTMENTS EARLY INTERVENTION SYSTEM IS NOT FULFILLING ITS MISSION.

NEXT SLIDE, PLEASE FOUND THAT WHILE THE PROGRAM HAS ESTABLISHED PROCESSES, THE SYSTEM IS NOT EFFECTIVE OR WORKING AS INTENDED.

IN ADDITION, WE FOUND THAT THE PROGRAM DOES NOT EFFECTIVELY IDENTIFY OFFICERS WHO MAY NEED ASSISTANCE DUE TO SIGNIFICANT DATA COLLECTION AND REPORTING ISSUES.

EACH QUARTER STAFF RUN A QUERY TO COLLECT INDICATOR INFORMATION FROM SEVERAL DATABASES TO DETERMINE WHICH OFFICERS HAVE CREATED IN THE SYSTEM.

THIS QUERY, WHILE STAFF HAVE TRIED TO FIX THIS PROBLEM BY MANUALLY CHECKING ACTIVATIONS, WE STILL FOUND SIGNIFICANT REPORTING ERRORS IN FISCAL YEAR 2020.

THE SYSTEM DID NOT IDENTIFY MORE THAN 33% OF THE OFFICERS.

IT SHOULD HAVE.

THE MAJORITY OF THESE UNREPORTED ACTIVATIONS WERE FOR RESPONSE TO RESISTANCE OR USE OF FORCE INCIDENTS.

IN ADDITION, SOME OFFICERS WHO SHOULD HAVE BEEN IDENTIFIED FOR CROSSING THRESHOLDS MULTIPLE TIMES WERE ONLY IDENTIFIED ONCE BY NOT APPROPRIATELY IDENTIFYING OFFICERS WHO CROSSED THRESHOLDS OR CROSS THRESHOLDS, MULTIPLE TIMES, SUPERVISORS ARE UNABLE TO DETERMINE IF THERE ARE ISSUES OR PATTERNS OF BEHAVIOR THAT NEED TO BE ADDRESSED.

THEY ALSO FOUND THAT THE PROGRAM DOES NOT EFFECTIVELY CONNECT OFFICERS TO SUPPORT SERVICES.

WHEN AN OFFICER IS IDENTIFIED BY THE PROGRAM, THEIR SUPERVISOR REVIEWS THE INFORMATION TO DETERMINE IF THERE ARE BEHAVIORAL ISSUES TO ADDRESS THIS REVIEW AND ANY RESULTING ACTIONS SUCH AS ADDITIONAL TRAINING OR REFERRAL TO SERVICES ARE DOCUMENTED IN A MEMO THAT IS REVIEWED BY THE OFFICER'S CHAIN OF COMMAND.

WE HAVE REVIEWED A SAMPLE OF 60 MEMOS IN 93% OF THE MEMOS.

WE REVIEWED NO ISSUES WERE FOUND 7% NOTED, INFORMAL COMMUNICATION WITH THE OFFICER, NONE OF THE REVIEWS HAD A FORMAL ACTION PLAN OR REFERRED OFFICERS TO SERVICES.

IT'S IMPORTANT TO NOTE THAT SUPERVISORS REVIEW RESPONSE, RESISTANCE INCIDENTS AND INTERNAL AFFAIRS COMPLAINTS THROUGH A SEPARATE DISCIPLINARY PROCESS AS RESULT APD STAFF SAID THAT SUPERVISORS OFTEN FEEL THEY'VE ALREADY REVIEWED AND DEALT WITH THESE ISSUES PRIOR TO THEM SHOWING UP IN THE GUIDANCE ADVISORY PROGRAM.

THIS MAY EXPLAIN WHY

[00:15:01]

FEW ISSUES ARE FOUND.

HOWEVER, AS WE NOTED BEFORE, THE PURPOSE OF THE PROGRAM IS NOT DISCIPLINARY, BUT AS TO IDENTIFY AREAS OF CONCERN AND PATTERNS OF BEHAVIOR THAT MAY BENEFIT FROM INTERVENTION, NEXT SLIDE, PLEASE.

WE FOUND IT.

THERE IS MINIMAL REPORTING ON GAP ACTIVATIONS AND NO TRACKING OR TREND ANALYSIS IS PERFORMED TO IDENTIFY AREAS OF CONCERN OR TO EVALUATE THE PROGRAM SUCCESS.

IN ADDITION, THE GAP DOES NOT TRACK WHAT INTERVENTIONS ARE RECOMMENDED OR USED.

AND IF THOSE INTERVENTIONS ARE EFFECTIVE AT ADDRESSING BEHAVIORAL ISSUES, OUR TREND ANALYSIS OF GAP REPORTS FROM FISCAL YEARS, 2015 THROUGH 2020, FOUND THAT MOST OFFICERS WHO ACTIVATE ONLY ACTIVATE ONCE THAT 7% OF THE OFFICERS WHO ACTIVATED ACCOUNTED FOR 17% OF THE ACTIVATIONS, FOR EXAMPLE, 11 OFFICERS HAD SIX OR MORE ACTIVATIONS.

DURING THIS TIME, WE LOOKED AT THE SUPERVISOR REVIEWS FOR SOME OF THESE OFFICERS AND FOUND THAT NONE OF THESE REVIEWS NOTED ANY ISSUES WHEN LOOKING AT A SINGLE RESPONSE TO RESISTANCE INCIDENT OR AN INTERNAL AFFAIRS COMPLAINT, A SUPERVISOR MAY FIND MAY NOT FIND ANY ISSUES AS THE OFFICER'S ACTIONS WERE WITHIN POLICY.

HOWEVER, LOOKING AT MULTIPLE INCIDENTS OVER TIME AND COMPARING THESE INCIDENTS ACROSS OFFICERS, SUPERVISORS, AND ASSIGNMENTS, MAY REVEAL PATTERNS OF BEHAVIOR THAT ARE OUTSIDE THE NORM AND SHOULD BE ADDRESSED.

OUR SECOND FINDING ADDRESSES USE OF THE PROGRAM WE FOUND THE AUSTIN POLICE DEPARTMENT HAS NOT GENERATED THE BUY-IN PROVIDED THE NECESSARY TRAINING OR CREATED THE TRANSPARENCY NEEDED TO SUPPORT USE OF THE GAP.

NEXT SLIDE, PLEASE, BASED ON INTERVIEW THESE WITH STAFF FROM VARIOUS LEVELS OF THE ORGANIZATION, WE FOUND THAT APD HAS NOT GENERATED BUY-IN FOR THE PROGRAM.

APD STAFF SAID THAT SUPERVISORS DO NOT FIND THE GAP HELPFUL AND OFFICERS VIEW THE PROGRAM IS PUNITIVE, WHICH IS NOT ITS INTENDED PURPOSE.

THEY ALSO FOUND THAT TRAINING IS MINIMAL AND SUPERVISORS OFTEN CONDUCT REVIEWS PRIOR TO RECEIVING INSTRUCTION ON HOW TO DO SO.

APPROPRIATELY STAFF SAID THAT OFFICERS ARE FEARFUL OF ACTIVATING THE SYSTEM AND HAVE LOTS OF QUESTIONS ABOUT THE PROCESS AND THE CONSEQUENCES OF ACTIVATING, WHICH ALSO INDICATES A LACK OF TRAINING.

FINALLY, IN OUR MEETINGS WITH STAFF AND OTHER STAKEHOLDERS, IT WAS CLEAR THAT THE PURPOSE OF THE GAP AND HOW IT WORKS IS NOT TRANSPARENT TO ALL USERS.

IN ADDITION, APD MANAGEMENT WAS AWARE THAT THE GAP WAS NOT REPORTING INFORMATION CORRECTLY, BUT CONTINUE TO RUN THE PROGRAM WITHOUT PROPERLY ENSURING THAT THE INFORMATION REPORTED WAS ACCURATE.

THIS ALSO CONTRIBUTES TO A LACK OF TRANSPARENCY AND TRUST IN THE SYSTEM.

SO MADE AN ADDITIONAL OBSERVATION.

THE GAP MAY NOT TRACK THE RIGHT AMOUNT OR TYPE OF INDICATORS OR HAVE THE APPROPRIATE THRESHOLD LEVELS.

AS NOTED EARLIER, THE PROGRAM CURRENTLY TRACKS THREE INDICATORS, BUT WE FOUND THAT OTHER CITIES IN TEXAS IN THE UNITED STATES APPEAR TO TRACK SIGNIFICANTLY MORE INDICATORS AS SHOWN ON THIS SLIDE, THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE AND OTHER STUDIES OF EARLY INTERVENTION SYSTEMS SUGGEST THAT MORE INDICATORS THAT ARE TRACKED THE BETTER THE SYSTEM IS ABLE TO IDENTIFY AREAS OF CONCERN, A FULL LIST OF INDICATORS FOR EACH CITY WE REVIEWED CAN BE FOUND IN OUR REPORT.

IN ADDITION, APD STAFF SAID THEY DON'T THINK THE GAP IS TRACKING THE RIGHT INDICATORS.

FOR EXAMPLE, STAFF SET A BETTER INDICATOR OF HOW AN OFFICER IS DOING IS TO TRACK THE OFFICER'S PRODUCTIVITY.

FINALLY, THE GAP MAY NOT BE USING THE APPROPRIATE THRESHOLDS, FOR EXAMPLE, THE GAP TRACKS RESPONSE TO RESISTANCE INCIDENTS, BUT OTHER CITIES THAT WE LOOKED AT TRACK USE OF FORCE COMPLAINTS.

IT APPEARS THAT A GREATER PERCENTAGE OF OFFICERS ACTIVATE EACH YEAR IN AUSTIN WHEN COMPARED TO PEER CITIES, REFINING THE SYSTEM SO THAT IT IDENTIFIES FEWER OFFICERS MAY MAKE IT EASIER FOR SUPERVISORS TO THOROUGHLY REVIEW OFFICERS THAT DO ACTIVATE AND FOCUS RESOURCES WHERE THEY'RE NEEDED MOST NEXT SLIDE, PLEASE.

IN OUR RESEARCH OF EARLY INTERVENTION SYSTEMS, WE NOTED THAT SYSTEMS VARY SIGNIFICANTLY ACROSS DEPARTMENTS AND LITTLE RESEARCH HAS BEEN CONDUCTED TO DETERMINE IF THESE SYSTEMS ARE EFFECTIVE.

HOWEVER, IN RECENT YEARS, MORE DATA-DRIVEN EARLY INTERVENTION SYSTEMS, WHICH USE MORE ADVANCED COMPUTER PROGRAMMING CLAIM TO HAVE PREDICTIVE VALUE.

WELL, ONLY A FEW CITIES HAVE PILOTED THESE SYSTEMS, WHICH TRACK UPWARDS OF 20 INDICATORS, THE SYSTEMS CLAIM TO HAVE PREDICTIVE VALUE.

AS I SAID, FOR EXAMPLE, THE CHARLOTTE MECKLENBURG POLICE DEPARTMENT BEGAN USING A MORE ADVANCED SYSTEM IN 2017 USING HISTORICAL DATA TO TEST THE SYSTEM.

THEY FOUND THAT IT IDENTIFIED 10 TO 20% MORE OFFICERS WHO WENT ON TO HAVE AN ADVERSE INCIDENT IN A MORE TRADITIONAL THRESHOLD SYSTEMS, SUCH AS THE ONE USED IN AUSTIN.

THESE DEVELOPMENTS ARE PROMISING, BUT SUCH SYSTEMS TAKE TIME AND RESOURCES TO IMPLEMENT.

WE ISSUED FOUR RECOMMENDATIONS AS SHOWN ON THE SLIDE AND MANAGEMENT.

AGREED.

THIS CONCLUDES OUR PRESENTATION.

[00:20:01]

WE WELCOME YOUR QUESTIONS.

THANK YOU, MR. MADOFF IS SOMEONE HERE FROM APD TO SPEAK TO THE LC.

NOW THEY NEED TO BE MOVED OVER.

CHECK ON THAT.

MY UNDERSTANDING WAS THAT WE HAD SEVERAL PEOPLE ATTENDING FROM APD.

COULD YOU GIVE ME A LIST OF NAMES THAT NEED TO BE MOVED OVER, PLEASE? I BELIEVE IT WAS CHANGED TO CONE AND BASED ON, SEE, SHE TOOK OUT.

CAN YOU LET US KNOW IF THERE'S ANYONE BESIDES YOU AND A SYSTEM TEAM MAY SEND THAT BE BROUGHT OVER JOHN, PLEASE.

HELLO? CAN YOU HEAR ME? WELL, UM, THAT'S A NUMBER TWO.

WHAT DID YOU HAVE A QUESTION BEFORE? IT'S JUST A SUPER QUICK ONE.

UM, YOU KNOW, I'M, I'M LOOKING THROUGH THE REPORT.

I WANT TO BE SURE BEFORE WE GET INTO THE QUESTIONS AND HEAR THE RESPONSE, UM, COULD THE AUDITOR JUST EXPLAIN EXACTLY WHAT IT'S MEANT BY ACTIVATION AND ONE OF THE, THAT YOU USED IT, IT BECAME LESS CLEAR TO ME THAN IT WAS IN THE FIRST USAGE.

SO WOULD YOU JUST EXPLAIN WHAT YOU MEAN WHEN YOU REFER TO ACTIVATIONS? SURE.

SO THE GAP PROGRAM HAS PRESET THRESHOLDS FOR THE THREE INDICATORS THAT WE MENTIONED RESPONSE TO RESISTANCE, INTERNAL AFFAIRS COMPLAINTS AND USE OF SICK LEAVE.

SO WHEN AN OFFICER CROSSES ONE OF THOSE THRESHOLD, SO FOR EXAMPLE, WITH SICK LEAVE, IT'S 160 HOURS.

SO UPON THE 160 FIRST HOUR THAT THEY'VE USED IN THE PRIOR 12 MONTHS, THEY WILL BE ACTIVATED IN THE SYSTEM.

AND THE SUPERVISORS ALERTED THAT THERE MIGHT BE AN ISSUE THEY NEED TO ADDRESS.

I APPRECIATE IT.

THANK YOU, UH, T TO CONE.

I DON'T KNOW HOW YOU HAVE ORGANIZED THE MANAGEMENT RESPONSE, SO I WILL LIKE YOU, UM, STOP.

THAT'S FINE.

IF YOU'RE NOT ONE OF THE SPEAKERS AND WE PLEASE, UM, TO CHECK ON WITH YOU OR SHE THINKS I NEED TO SKIP IT.

HELLO? CAN YOU HEAR ME NOW? YES.

I'M HAVING PROBLEMS FOR WHATEVER REASON AND THEY'RE TRYING TO RESOLVE THEM, UM, WITH USING THE COMPUTER.

SO I HAD TO CALL IN ON MY CELL PHONE.

SO, UM, IF THERE'S A DELAY, THAT'S THE REASON FOR THAT.

UM, I WAS ABLE TO, UH, HEAR MOST OF THE PRESENTATION THAT WAS MADE BY THE CITY AUDITOR'S OFFICE.

UM, AND WOULD BE GLAD TO, I DON'T KNOW IF YOU WANT ME TO MAKE AN OPENING STATEMENT OR, UM, KIND OF RESPOND TO QUESTIONS.

SO GENERALLY, UH, WE PROVIDE THE DEPARTMENT AN OPPORTUNITY TO SPEAK TO THE AUDIT, UM, AND YOUR RESPONSE TO THAT.

SO YOU HAVE AN OPENING STATEMENT THAT MIGHT BE APPROPRIATE NOW, AND THEN WE WILL, UM, MOVE TO QUESTIONS.

WE KNEW WAS THAT, UM, PEOPLE WHO SHOULD HAVE ACTIVATED OR NOT ACTIVATED.

VERY GOOD.

UM, THE, UH, WE WORKED WITH THE AUDITOR'S OFFICE, OUR RISK MANAGEMENT UNIT IS THE ONE THAT ACTUALLY HANDLES, UM, THE GUIDANCE ADVISORY PROGRAM AND, UH, FOLLOWING, UM, WHAT WE REALIZED WERE SHORTCOMINGS IN IT OVER THE LAST REALLY, UH, LONGER THAN A YEAR, WE HAVE BEEN WORKING TO SEE HOW WE COULD, UM, DO TWO THINGS.

AND THE FIRST BEING, TRYING TO RESOLVE THE ISSUES THAT WE HAD WITH A PROGRAM, IT WAS, IT WAS ESSENTIALLY A SCRIPT THAT WAS WRITTEN, UM, TO RUN THROUGH OUR RECORDS MANAGEMENT SYSTEM AND EXTRACT DATA THAT WE COULD USE TO, UH, REVIEW THE METRICS OF THE GUIDANCE ADVISORY PROGRAM.

UM, THE, THE PERSON THAT WROTE THE SCRIPT IS NO LONGER WITH THE CITY.

AND, UH, THERE WAS NOBODY BECAUSE IT WAS WRITTEN IN A PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE AND NOBODY ELSE HERE.

UH, IT'S, IT'S ESSENTIALLY DEFUNCT AT THIS POINT HAS BEEN ABLE TO RESOLVE IT.

AND SO WHAT WE CONTINUE TO DO IN THE MEANTIME WAS TO, UM, TO RUN THE SCRIPT.

UH, AND ONE OF OUR, UH, PERSONNEL IN, UH, RISK MANAGEMENT WAS, UM, GOING THROUGH MANUALLY AND ENSURING THAT ALL OF THE INDIVIDUALS THAT HAD ACTIVATED, UH, THAT, THAT WAS, UH, ACCURATE AND MANY TIMES WOULD FIND THAT IT OVER ACTIVATED, UM, OR, UM, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE WERE INACCURATELY, UM, OR INACCURATELY ACTIVATED.

AND SO THOSE PEOPLE WOULD THEN BE REMOVED, UH, WHAT, I'M NOT SURE THAT, THAT

[00:25:01]

AND SO THAT CAME, THAT WAS A PART OF THIS AUDIT.

THAT WAS, UM, SOMETHING THAT WE LEARNED AND ARE NOW LOOKING AS PART OF THE RECOMMENDATIONS THAT HAVE BEEN MADE BY THE AUDITORS OFFICE TO SEE HOW WE CAN RESOLVE IT.

UH, AT LEAST IN THE SHORT TERM, UH, THE OTHER PART OF IT IS LOOKING TO ASSIST THEM THAT IS IN THE LONG RUN, GOING TO BE MUCH MORE EFFECTIVE FOR US.

UH, THIS IS SOMETHING THAT WE HAVE ENGAGED, UM, CTM, UH, DEPARTMENT TO ASSIST US WITH AS WELL AS OUR POLICE TECHNOLOGY UNIT TO DO THE INFORMATION, UH, AND REQUIREMENTS GATHERING THAT WOULD BE NECESSARY, UH, TO, UH, PUT OUT, UH, EVENTUALLY IN RFI, AS WELL AS TO, UH, LOCATE AND SECURE FUNDING, UM, TO ASSIST WITH THIS EFFORT, UH, AS NOTED BY THE CITY AUDITOR'S REPORT, WE, UH, USE THREE DIFFERENT METRICS, UH, WHILE OTHER CITIES, AND WE REALIZED THIS USE MORE.

UM, THE PROBLEM FOR US WAS BEING ABLE TO ADJUST, UH, THIS, THIS PROGRAM THAT ESSENTIALLY IS PRETTY BROKEN AT THIS POINT WAS, WAS WE WERE NOT ABLE TO DO THAT.

AND WHAT WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO DO IN THE MEANTIME IS, IS GO AHEAD AND ADJUST AND DO SOME MANUAL WORK, UH, AND, AND MAKE SOME DETERMINATIONS ABOUT WHAT'S APPROPRIATE TO DO THAT.

I THINK THAT'S, THAT'S REALLY PART OF RECOMMENDATION.

NUMBER ONE, UH, WITH REGARD TO FINDING SOME SHORT-TERM FIXES TO, UM, TO THE EARLY INTERVENTION SYSTEM.

UM, I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT THAT, UH, WE FIND A SYSTEM ULTIMATELY THAT IS GOING TO TRACK, UM, EVEN GREATER THAN THAT, THE BIGGEST NUMBER THAT YOU SAW THERE, WHICH WAS 18, UH, OUT OF, UH, OUT OF A DEPARTMENT IN PENNSYLVANIA, UM, THERE ARE SYSTEMS OUT THERE THAT CAN TRACK OVER 30 DIFFERENT TYPES OF, UH, INDICATORS.

SO IN ADDITION TO THE ONES THAT WE HAVE, WHICH ARE, YOU KNOW, OBVIOUSLY OUR RESPONSE TO RESISTANCE, UM, THE, THE NUMBER OF COMPLAINTS THAT AN OFFICER RECEIVES THROUGH INTERNAL AFFAIRS, UH, AS WELL AS THEIR USE OF SICK LEAVE, IT ALSO TRACKS, UH, HOW MANY TIMES THAT AN OFFICER FOR INSTANCE, FILES A PARTICULAR TYPE OF CHARGE.

UH, IT LOOKS AT, UH, RACIAL PROFILING DATA.

UH, IT LOOKS AT THE TIMES, UH, THE NUMBER OF TIMES THAT THEY'D BEEN INVOLVED IN CRASHES AND HOW MANY OF THOSE WERE NEGLIGENT CRASHES.

UH, IT LOOKS AT ISSUES RELATED TO PERFORMANCE AND, UH, AS WELL AS THEIR EXTRA DUTY EMPLOYMENT.

SO THERE'S A NUMBER OF OTHER THINGS THAT WE CAN LOOK AT THAT I THINK WOULD BE GOOD FROM A WELLNESS STANDPOINT.

UM, I THINK IMPORTANTLY, UH, I THINK THE CITY AUDITOR'S OFFICE HAS CORRECTLY IDENTIFIED THAT THIS IS A, SUPPOSED TO BE A PROGRAM THAT IS NOT PUNITIVE IN NATURE, BUT RATHER, UH, GIVES US AN EARLY IDEA THAT WE HAVE AN EMPLOYEE THAT IS STRUGGLING.

UH, AND WE HAVE NOT BEEN ABLE TO EFFECTIVELY USE IT, USE IT BASED ON, UH, THE WAY THAT THE PROGRAM IS CURRENTLY SET UP, UH, AS, AS, UH, UM, THE, THE AUDITOR'S OFFICE KIND OF HIGHLIGHTED, WE, UM, MANY OF THE THINGS THAT ARE HIGHLIGHTED IN, UM, THE GAP MEMO THAT IS SENT OUT TO THE CHAIN OF COMMAND ARE INCIDENTS THAT HAVE ALREADY BEEN REVIEWED BY THAT CHAIN OF COMMAND.

AND SO THEY'RE AWARE OF THEM, UH, HAVE ADDRESSED ANY DEFICIENCIES AT THAT TIME.

AND GENERALLY THAT WAS, UM, THAT WAS THEN NOTED IN THE, UM, IN THE RETURN MEMO BACK TO RISK MANAGEMENT TO SAY THAT EVERYTHING HAD BEEN RESOLVED AND THE PROGRAM IS NOT SET UP, UH, TO LOOK AT TRENDS AND PATTERNS, WHICH, UH, WITH A WORKFORCE OF, UM, OVER 1800 SWORN, UH, YOU KNOW, FROM A MANUAL STANDPOINT IS NOT REALISTIC.

SO I THINK IN THE END, UM, WE AGREE WITH THE RECOMMENDATIONS THAT HAVE BEEN MADE BY THE AUDITORS OFFICE AND SHOULD LOOK AT SHORT-TERM AND LONG-TERM, UM, CHANGES THAT WE CAN MAKE THAT ARE GOING TO MAKE THE SYSTEM BETTER.

THANK YOU TOO, TO CONE UP WITH US.

UM, I WANT TO MAKE ONE COMMENT.

I DO HAVE A LOT OF QUESTIONS THAT I WANT TO DEFER TO CONSTABLE METOVA.

WHO'S GOING TO HAVE TO LEAVE, UM, SHORTLY, UM, TO LET HER ASK US SOME QUESTION AND FOR QUESTION FIRST, UM, YOU KNOW, IN REVIEWING THIS AUDIT, I WAS STRUCK BY THE FACT THAT, UM, OUR EARLY INTERVENTION SYSTEM LITERALLY, UM, DOES NOT ACCOMPLISH A SINGLE ONE OF THE BEST PRACTICE.

UM, THIS AUDIT REALLY MAKES CLEAR THAT THE ISSUES WITH ABDS EARLY INTERVENTION SYSTEM STANDING, THEY'RE KNOWN DEFICIENCIES THAT HAVE BEEN DEPRIORITIZED

[00:30:01]

AT BEST OR ON THE OTHER HAND, COMPLETELY DISMISSED OR DEEMED PERMISSIBLE.

UM, TO ME, THIS REALLY REFLECTS A LARGER CONCERNS THAT WE'VE BEEN TRYING TO WORK WITH WITH THE DEPARTMENT AND BROADER, OR THE REIMAGINING PROCESS IN GENERAL.

UM, SO I LOOK FORWARD AS OUR CONVERSATION GOES ON TODAY, UH, TO HEARING MORE, UH, FROM CHIEF CHECON ABOUT YOUR COMMITMENT, UM, TO FIXING THIS AND ACKNOWLEDGING, UM, THE PROBLEM.

AND I HOPE THAT WE CAN GET INTO THAT IN MORE DETAIL.

SO, UM, I HAD A LOT OF QUESTIONS, BUT I'M GOING TO DEFER TO COUNCIL MEMBER TOVA WHO HAS TO GET TO DO THAT OTHER BOARD MEETING, AND WE'LL BE SWITCHING TO THE PHONE AND IT'LL BE HARD FOR HER TO ASK THOSE.

SO COUNCIL MEMBER TOBO, YOU DO HAVE QUESTIONS OR YOU ONE, I, YOU, I APPRECIATE IT.

AND THANKS.

UM, YOU KNOW, I, I AM ALSO QUITE CONCERNED ABOUT THE FINDINGS IN THIS AUDIT.

UM, BOTH FOR ALL THE REASONS, UH, COUNCIL MEMBER ALTER SUGGESTED THAT THERE ARE DEFICIENCIES IN THAT SOME OF THESE ARE KNOWN AND WERE NOT ADDRESSED FUTURE.

UH, I'D LIKE TO TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT, I WANT TO BE SURE I'M UNDERSTANDING WHAT YOU'RE SAYING WITH REGARD TO THE DATA, UM, AND THE MANUAL SCRIPT.

SO, AS I LOOK AT PAGE FIVE OF THE REPORT, IT TALKS ABOUT THE AUDIT FINDINGS WHERE THE QUERY DID NOT IDENTIFY ABOUT A THIRD OF THE OFFICERS.

UM, SOMEBODY WAS MISTAKENLY, ONE OFFICER WHO SHOULD HAVE BEEN ACTIVATED WAS MISTAKENLY REMOVED THE SICK LEAVE DATA WASN'T ACCURATE.

SO WHAT I'M UNDERSTANDING, WHAT I'M UNDERSTANDING, UM, YOUR EXPLANATION OF SOME OF THAT IS, IS THAT THE SCRIPT WAS DONE IN A LANGUAGE BY THAT THIRD PARTY CONTRACTOR.

AND THEN, UM, IT WAS NOT YOUR INTERNAL STAFF WERE NOT ABLE TO WORK WITH IT.

AND SO HAVE BEEN TRYING TO DO A LOT OF THIS MANUALLY.

IS THAT THE REASON, DOES THAT EXPLAIN WHY THE OFFICER WHO WAS ACTIVATED WAS MISTAKENLY REMOVED? YES, BECAUSE IT'S A MANUAL PROCESS.

UM, THERE'S GOING TO BE SOME HUMAN ERROR IN THERE.

AND, UH, RIGHT NOW I HAVE ONE PERSON WHO IS DEDICATED TO THIS, TO THIS EFFORT, DOING IT ON A QUARTERLY BASIS, IN ADDITION TO THE OTHER FUNCTIONS THAT SHE HAS TO PERFORM AS WELL.

SO, UM, I WOULD ANTICIPATE THAT THERE IS GOING TO BE SOME, SOME ERRORS IN THE REPORTING.

UM, BUT IT IS NOT FOR A LACK OF EFFORT, OBVIOUSLY ON HER PART TO MAKE SURE THAT, UM, THAT THE PEOPLE THAT ARE SHOWN IS ACTIVATED AND THERE ARE ACTUALLY, UM, THAT, THAT IT IS ACCURATE.

AND THEN THEY, THAT THEY SHOULD HAVE BEEN ACTIVATED.

UM, AND LIKE I SAID, I'M NOT, I DON'T BELIEVE THAT OUR STAFF KNEW THAT THERE WERE A NUMBER THAT SHOULD HAVE ACTIVATED THAT DID NOT.

UH, I THINK THAT, UM, THE, THE, MY UNDERSTANDING IS THAT THE CITY AUDITOR'S OFFICE CONDUCTED A, A MANUAL, UH, RESEARCH OVER A CERTAIN PERIOD OF TIME TO LOOK AT ALL, UM, ALL EMPLOYEES AND THEIR USE OF FORCE.

AND, UM, YOU KNOW, FOR, UH, THAT, THAT WAS, THAT WAS A ONE-TIME THING THAT WAS DONE BY THE OFFICE TO, TO HIGHLIGHT THE, THE ISSUE.

I'M GLAD THAT IT, THAT IT HIGHLIGHTED IT.

I DON'T THINK THAT, UH, FROM A PRACTICAL STANDPOINT THAT WE WOULD BE ABLE TO DO THAT, UH, EVERY SINGLE QUARTER, WE CAN'T PULL ALL OF THOSE RECORDS AND LOOK THROUGH THEM MANUALLY.

WE HAVE TO HAVE A PROGRAM THAT IS GOING TO BE ABLE TO DO THIS.

SO THAT'S WHY WE'RE GOING TO BE LOOKING AT THE METRICS.

AND WHAT'S MOST APPROPRIATE IN THE SHORT TERM.

WHEN, WHEN IS THE NEW SOFTWARE GOING TO MANAGE THIS PROCESS? WE DON'T HAVE A TIMELINE ON IT YET.

UM, WE'VE BEEN WORKING, UH, WE'RE HOPING IN THE END AND, UM, I'VE, I'VE OUTLINED THAT IN A RECOMMENDATION NUMBER FOUR, BUT WE'RE HOPING TO HAVE, UM, UH, WE'RE, WE'RE DOING THE STAKEHOLDER, UH, INPUT AND THE IMPLEMENTATION, UH, PIECE, UH, STARTING, YOU KNOW, GOING THROUGH NEXT YEAR AND TO HAVE, UM, THE S THE NEW SYSTEM PROCURED IN FY 23.

AND IS THE, IS THAT STAKEHOLDER PROCESS THAT YOU'VE OUTLINED AND RECOMMENDATION FOR GOING TO TAKE INTO ACCOUNT, UM, THE DIFFERENT ELEMENTS THAT WOULD BE PART OF THAT, THE DIFFERENT FACTORS THAT WOULD BE REGARDED REVIEWED? YES, THAT'S CORRECT.

AS WELL AS ENGAGING SOME, YOU KNOW, IMPORTANT PARTNERS LIKE THE OFFICE OF POLICE OVERSIGHT, UH, TO MAKE SURE THAT THEY, UM, HAVE A VOICE IN IT AS WELL.

YEAH.

I, I AM THE ONE THAT YOU CITED WAS THAT PHILADELPHIA I MISSED WHICH CITY IT WAS THAT HAD, UH, A RANGE OF DIFFERENT FACTORS THAT THEY LOOK AT FROM NEGLIGENT, UM, ACCIDENTS TO EXTRA DUTY ASSIGNMENTS.

AND SOME OF THOSE OTHER WAS THAT EXAMPLE FROM PHILADELPHIA.

I BELIEVE THAT THAT WAS IN THE, UM, THE AUDITORS PRESENTATION.

THAT WAS, UM, TRICIA CALLING.

I JUST MISSED, THANK YOU.

I MISSED

[00:35:01]

CAN YOU TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT WHEN, WHEN, UM, NOT TO RESPOND NOW, BUT I THINK, UH, A ROLE IMPORTANT QUESTION IS WHETHER ANY OF THIS TIMELINE CAN BE SPED UP.

I THINK IT'S, THIS IS SEEMS LIKE A CRITICAL, A CRITICAL, UM, SYSTEMS, SYSTEMS CHANGE THAT SHOULD HAPPEN BOTH REGARD TO THE SOFTWARE AND THE, AND REVISING, REVISING WHAT YOU'RE DOING AND WHAT THE IMPACT OF IT IS.

BUT COULD YOU EXPLAIN OR TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT WHY OFFICERS ARE NOT BEING CONNECTED TO THE SUPPORT SERVICES? SO THERE WAS A COMMENT ON PAGE SIX, UM, WHERE IN, IN SOME OF THE MEMOS, EVEN IN THOSE MEMOS, THAT INFORMALLY NOTE, UM, INFORMAL CONVERSATION OR COUNSELING, UM, THERE DOESN'T, IT'S, IT, IT APPEARS THAT THERE'S NOT A CONNECTION BETWEEN THOSE OFFICERS AND, AND SERVICES, OR IF, IF SOME OF THOSE INDIVIDUALS ARE SEEKING SERVICES BECAUSE OF THE WAY THE APA D WELLNESS CENTER WORKS, THERE'S NOT NECESSARILY A TRACKING MECHANISM FOR THAT BECAUSE THE SERVICES ARE CONFIDENTIAL.

COULD YOU ADDRESS THAT? THAT SEEMS THAT, UM, COMBINE, AS I'VE CONCERNED, THAT OFFICERS WHO ARE IDENTIFIED AS, AS INDIVIDUALS WHO WOULD POTENTIALLY BENEFIT FROM THOSE SERVICES ARE, ARE NOT BEING, ARE NOT BEING CONNECTED TO THEM, AND WE'RE NOT SURE ARE RECEIVING THOSE SERVICES.

RIGHT.

UM, I THINK THAT THE, UH, WHERE THE, WHERE THE KIND OF DISCONNECT IS HAPPENING RIGHT NOW IS THAT WHEN A GAP MEMO IS, OR A GAP ACTIVATION, UH, HAPPENS AND A GAP MEMO IS GENERATED, UM, THERE'S NOT A PRESUMPTION THAT THERE IS AN ISSUE.

IT IS FOR THE, FOR THE, THE SUPERVISOR IN THAT CHAIN OF COMMAND TO REVIEW THE OFFICER'S, UM, ACTIVATION CIRCUMSTANCES AND DETERMINE IF THEY THINK THAT THERE IS A, AN ISSUE.

AND SO I THINK THAT'S WHERE THE DISCONNECT IS HAPPENING.

IT IS NOT THAT WE'VE IDENTIFIED THAT THIS OFFICER NEEDS RESOURCES AND WE'RE FAILING TO CONNECT THEM WITH THE RESOURCES.

I THINK, UM, THE PROBLEM IS, IS THAT THIS PROGRAM IS NOT DESIGNED TO DETECT, UH, TRENDS AND POWDERS.

IT IS IT'S PRETTY JUST GIVES YOU THE RAW DATA, WHICH A SUPERVISOR, UM, YOU KNOW, STARTING WITH OUR GAP COORDINATOR ACTUALLY WILL REVIEW IT TO ENSURE THAT THE DATA IS ACCURATE, PASS IT ALONG TO THE CHAIN OF COMMAND.

AND THEN THE SUPERVISOR IS RESPONSIBLE FOR REVIEWING, UM, THE CIRCUMSTANCES OF EACH ONE OF THE INCIDENTS THAT IS OUTLINED IN THE ACTIVATION.

UM, AS I NOTED EARLIER, WHETHER IT'S A RESPONSE TO RESISTANCE USE OF FORCE INCIDENT, OR IT'S AN INTERNAL AFFAIRS COMPLAINT, UM, I THINK THAT THE FEELING FROM, UM, FROM THOSE THAT ARE DOING IT IS THAT THESE ISSUES HAVE BEEN REVIEWED AND HAVE BEEN DEALT WITH.

AND SO IF WE NOTED EARLY IN THAT, UM, YOU KNOW, THERE WAS AN INTERNAL AFFAIRS COMPLAINT, UH, AND THAT THERE A REMEDY NEEDED TO HAPPEN AS FAR AS THE DISCIPLINE OR TRAINING OR WHATEVER IT WAS THAT, THAT HAD HAPPENED AT THE CONCLUSION OF THE CASE.

AND SO THAT IS OUTLINED IN THE RESPONSE MEMOS.

AND THAT'S WHY SO MANY OF THOSE RESPONSE MEMOS DID NOT NOTE ANY FINDINGS WHERE I THINK OUR GAP PROGRAMS FALL SHORT IS THAT TREND ANALYSIS.

AND IT IS THE PROGRAM THAT WE CURRENTLY HAVE IS NOT SET UP FOR, AGAIN, IT'S ON THE INDIVIDUAL SUPERVISORS TO LOOK BACK OVER TIME.

AND, UM, AND THAT, THAT IS WHERE THIS PROGRAM IS FALLING SHORT WITH REGARD TO THE TIMELINE THAT YOU MENTIONED AND TRYING TO MOVE IT UP.

UM, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WILL BE A LIMITING FACTOR AND WHY I WANT IT TO, TO PUT A REALISTIC TIMELINE ON THERE IS THAT ANY NEW PROGRAM WOULD NOT JUST BE ABOUT GAP.

THERE ARE GOING TO BE A NUMBER OF OTHER THINGS THAT WE WANT IT TO ACCOMPLISH AS WELL, INCLUDING, UM, THE TRACKING OUR INTERNAL AFFAIRS COMPLAINTS.

SO THIS IS A PROGRAM THAT WOULD ALSO BE USED BY THE OFFICE OF POLICE OVERSIGHT FOR MANY OF THE FUNCTIONS THAT THEY DO.

THEY HAVE A SEAT AT THE TABLE, AND WE'RE MAKING SURE THAT AS WE DO REQUIREMENT GATHERING, WE ARE LOOKING AT EVERYTHING THAT IS GOING TO BE NECESSARY.

UM, SO, SO THAT'S KIND OF WHY THE TIMELINE IS WHAT IT IS.

AND I HOPE I ANSWERED BOTH OF YOUR QUESTIONS.

UM, BUT I'M, I'M, I'M REALLY, UM, CONCERNED ABOUT THIS, THE FINDINGS HERE, UM, AND THE FACT THAT THIS WAS KNOWN, AND IT DOESN'T SEEM LIKE WE'RE DOING MUCH ABOUT IT, AND I REALLY DO NEED TO HEAR FROM YOU WHAT YOUR COMMITMENT IS, UM, TO FIXING THIS AND, UH, AND A CLEAR ACTION PLAN AND, AND, UM, YOU KNOW, TO THE EXTENT THAT YOU WANT TO SPEAK TO THAT.

YOU DID.

THANKS.

AND LIKELY OTHER QUESTIONS WILL OCCUR TO ME, BUT I KNOW OTHER, OTHER OF MY COLLEAGUES HAVE THEM TOO.

THANK YOU CHAIR FOR ALLOWING ME TO GO FIRST.

UH, NO PROBLEM.

UM, THANK YOU TO, TO CONE.

UM, YOU TOUCHED ON SOME PIECES ON, ON SOME OF MY CONCERNS.

UM, YOU KNOW, I KNOW YOU WERE NOT CHIEF WHEN THIS PROCESS BEGAN AND, UM, YOU KNOW, I, I'VE HEARD YOU SAY MULTIPLE TIMES THAT YOU ARE DATA-DRIVEN AND YOU WANT THE DEPARTMENT TO DO THAT.

[00:40:01]

NOW, I WOULD LOVE TO HEAR THAT, UM, I WILL HAVE A MOTION FOR FURTHER INFORMATION FROM YOU.

UM, YOU KNOW, LATER WHEN WE'RE DONE WITH THE CONVERSATION, UM, YOU KNOW, I HAVE DEEP CONCERNS THAT OUT OF A SAMPLE OF GAP ACTIVATIONS ANALYZED NOT A SINGLE PLAN WAS DEVELOPED AND THAT 93% OF ACTIVATIONS WERE DISMISSED COMPLETELY.

AND I UNDERSTAND THAT THE ARGUMENT IS, WELL, IT WAS PULLED BY THIS OTHER THING, WHICH IS MORE ABOUT A DISCIPLINARY THING.

YOU KNOW, THE EARLY INTERVENTION SYSTEM IS NOT SUPPOSED TO BE PUNITIVE AND YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO BE THERE FOR US TO BE ABLE TO PROVIDE, UM, YOU KNOW, SUPPORT AND ASSISTANCE TO OUR OFFICERS, TO HELP THEM THRIVE, HELP THEM DO THEIR JOB AND TO PROTECT THE INVESTMENT THAT WE'VE MADE IN THEIR TRAINING.

SO THAT STARTED, UM, IN THE ROLE THAT THEY'VE CHOSEN, UM, TO SERVE.

AND SO, UM, I'D LIKE TO HEAR, YOU KNOW, A, ABOUT YOUR COMMITMENT AND SOME MORE SPECIFICS ON THE PLAN FOR FIXING THIS.

I HEARD YOU SAY, ESSENTIALLY THERE ARE OFF THE SHELL FIXES THAT ARE ELSEWHERE.

UM, AND SO I'D LIKE YOU TO SPEAK TO THOSE AND WHAT THE OBSTACLES ARE FOR GETTING, UM, FOR GETTING, YOU KNOW, THAT SYSTEM UP AND RUNNING.

I KNOW THERE'S SOME LEGACY SYSTEM ISSUES, UM, BUT YOU KNOW, WHAT ARE WE DOING TO MAKE US MOVE FORWARD, TO BE ABLE TO DO THAT? THAT WAS NOT CLEAR FROM THE MANAGEMENT RESPONSE.

UM, SO IF YOU WANT TO SPEAK TO THAT BROAD THING, A QUESTION OF YOUR COMMITMENT, UM, AND WHAT YOU'RE DOING, AND, AND REALLY WHAT I, WHAT I NEED TO UNDERSTAND IS IF APD HAS KNOWN THAT GAP IS INEFFECTIVE, WHAT PROCESSES HAS THE DEPARTMENT BEEN USING FOR EARLY INTERVENTION WITH AT-RISK OFFICERS? RIGHT.

OKAY, THANK YOU, COUNCIL MEMBER.

AND SO, UM, I WANT TO BE CLEAR BECAUSE ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WAS NOTED IN THE REPORT WAS THAT THERE WAS NOT, UM, BUY-IN FROM THE, UM, FROM THE DEPARTMENT, UH, AT MANY LEVELS INTO THE PROGRAM.

AND I THINK THAT THAT WAS BORN FROM A, A FEELING AMONG MANY OF THE PEOPLE THAT WERE THERE, THE USERS OF THAT PROGRAM, THAT, THAT, WHAT IT WAS TRYING TO ACCOMPLISH WAS NOT CLEAR.

AND I WANT TO TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR THAT AS A DEPARTMENT THAT WE DID NOT PROVIDE, UM, THAT ACCURATE, GOOD MESSAGING TO OUR SUPERVISORS AND MANAGERS, UM, TO MAKE IT MORE CLEAR ON THE PURPOSE OF THIS, UM, THE PROGRAM HAS BEEN IN EXISTENCE FOR A NUMBER OF YEARS.

I THINK THAT MUCH OF THE, UH, INITIAL TRAINING AND MESSAGING, UM, THAT WAS, UM, REQUIRED ON THAT HAD FALLEN OFF.

AND THAT WILL BECOME A PRIORITY FOR ME, GOING FORWARD IS TO ENSURE THAT AT ALL LEVELS, UM, THE BUY-IN IS THERE.

AND I CAN TELL YOU AT, AT THE COMMAND AND EXECUTIVE LEVEL, THE BUY-IN IS THERE, AND WE UNDERSTAND THE NEED FOR THE EARLY INTERVENTION SYSTEM.

WE'RE TRYING TO PREVENT, UM, PROBLEMS THAT OFFICERS MIGHT HAVE.

AND WE'RE ALSO TRYING TO SAVE OFFICER CAREERS, UH, AND, AND KEEP THEM OUT OF TROUBLE BEFORE THEY GET THEMSELVES INTO TROUBLE.

UM, THE, I, I ALSO, UH, YOU KNOW, I JUST WANT TO, TO CLARIFY A LITTLE BIT THAT, UM, WE HAVE BEEN TAKING STEPS IN THE MEANTIME TO, UH, YOU KNOW, KEEP THE PROGRAM GOING AS WELL AS WE COULD, BASED ON WHAT WE HAD.

UH, WE'VE HAD A NUMBER OF CONVERSATIONS, UH, WITH CTM ABOUT TRYING TO FIX THE PROGRAM.

THEY DO NOT HAVE THE RESOURCES TO FIX IT.

UM, SO WE, UM, ASSIGNED THAT INTO RISK MANAGEMENT, UH, IN ORDER TO, UM, ONCE A REPORT HAD BEEN POLLED, UH, TO, TO MANUALLY GO THROUGH IT AND MAKE SURE THAT IT WAS ACCURATE.

UM, I UNDERSTAND THERE'S GOING TO BE OCCASIONAL, UM, UH, ERRORS THAT ARE MADE, BUT I THINK THAT, UM, THAT, UM, THE, UH, THE PERSON WHO WAS DOING THIS DID AN OUTSTANDING JOB OVERALL, UH, GIVEN, YOU KNOW, THAT THE TASKS THAT THIS TASK AND OTHERS, UM, WE HAVE BEEN ACTIVELY WORKING TO TRY TO FIND A REPLACEMENT.

SO THE REQUIREMENT GATHERING HAS BEEN ONGOING FOR A NUMBER OF MONTHS, UM, OUR, UH, BUSINESS TECHNOLOGY UNIT, WHICH IS, WHICH RESIDES WITHIN OUR POLICE TECHNOLOGY UNIT, UM, HAS THIS AS A PROJECT AND HAS BEEN WORKING

[00:45:01]

ON THE REQUIREMENT, GATHERING WITH US IN OTHER DEPARTMENTS TO, UM, TO FIND OUT WHAT ARE THE MOST APPROPRIATE METRICS.

SO MANY OF THE SAME THINGS THAT, UM, CITY AUDITOR'S OFFICE DID WITH REACHING OUT TO OTHER, UH, AGENCIES TO SEE WHAT IT IS THAT THEY'RE DOING, WE HAVE DONE AS WELL.

AND WE ARE IN, LIKE I SAID, IN THE PROCESS OF DETERMINING ALL THE FACTORS THAT WOULD BE MOST APPROPRIATE.

UM, THERE ARE SOME OFF THE SHELF SOLUTIONS THAT CAN BE, UH, TAILORED TO A DEPARTMENT.

UH, I WILL SAY THAT THEY'RE QUITE EXPENSIVE, UH, GIVEN, YOU KNOW, WHAT WE'RE ASKING THEM TO DO.

AS I MENTIONED, IT'S NOT JUST ABOUT THE EARLY INTERVENTION SYSTEM, IT'S ABOUT OTHER, UH, SYSTEMS THAT LEGACY SYSTEMS THAT WE HAVE, WHICH ARE REACHING END OF LIFE.

AND WE NEED A BETTER SYSTEM THAT IS GOING TO CONNECT ALL THE THINGS THAT WE NEED TO BE ABLE TO PULL THE METRICS.

SO WHETHER THAT BE A RECORDS MANAGEMENT SYSTEM, UM, OUR SYSTEM IN WHICH ALL OF OUR INTERNAL AFFAIRS RECORDS RESIDE IS ALSO AT END OF LIFE.

UM, AND WE HAVE, AND SO WHAT WE'RE TRYING TO DO IS TO CONNECT AND BE VERY SMART ABOUT, UM, HOW WE PROCURE ALL OF THIS, SO THAT, SO THAT IN THE END WE HAVE SOMETHING THAT ALL WORKS TOGETHER.

AND, UM, AND SO THAT HAS BEEN PART OF THAT REQUIREMENT GATHERING THAT IS ALSO A PART OF THE DELAY.

UH, WE DO CLEARLY RECOGNIZE THAT WE HAVE OFFICERS THAT NEED HELP.

AND SO OUR WELLNESS EFFORTS HAVE NOT STOPPED, UM, AND HAVE BEEN VERY, VERY SUCCESSFUL IN IDENTIFYING OFFICERS THAT FOR WHATEVER REASON ARE HAVING ISSUES, UM, ARE CONNECTED WITH SERVICES.

UM, AND, UH, AND, AND WE CAN, YOU KNOW, I CAN CERTAINLY HAVE A PRESENTATION, UM, FOR YOU AND OTHER COUNCIL MEMBERS AT A LATER DATE ON WHAT THOSE EFFORTS ACTUALLY LOOK LIKE, BUT, UH, WE HAVE NOT STOPPED OUR WELLNESS EFFORTS.

IT'S JUST, WE HAVE NOT DONE A GOOD JOB OF CONNECTING THAT WITH THE EARLY INTERVENTION SYSTEM.

THANK YOU DO OUT.

I THINK IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT TO HAVE A COMMITMENT FROM THE CHIEF TO, UM, ADDRESS THE CHALLENGE, UM, WITH THE SYSTEM.

AND IT'S NOT REALLY THE SYSTEM, THAT'S THE ISSUE AS MUCH AS IT IS, YOU KNOW, HOW ARE WE DOING THE EARLIER GRETCHEN AND IDENTIFYING THAT RISK OFFICERS, UM, AND PROVIDING THEM THE SUPPORT, UM, AND FIGURING OUT THE WAYS TO DO THAT, UM, EFFECTIVELY, I APPRECIATE YOU RAISING THE LEGACY SYSTEM ISSUE.

UM, YOU KNOW, THIS IS THE AUDIT AND FINANCE COMMITTEE, AND THAT IS ONE OF THE ISSUES THAT I THINK WE KEEP HEARING OVER AND OVER AGAIN, KIND OF ACROSS THE ENTERPRISE ARE THE NEED TO, UM, YOU KNOW, UPDATE AND UPGRADE THESE LEGACY SYSTEMS. I DID WORK WITH AN INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS OFFICE TO GET LEGISLATIVE CHANGES THAT WILL ALLOW US FOR SOME OF THESE SYSTEMS TO BE ABLE TO MOVE TO THE CLOUD, UM, IN A FINANCIALLY EASIER WAY BREW, UM, DEBT FINANCING.

AND HOPEFULLY THAT CAN ALSO HELP, UM, WITH THE POLICE SYSTEMS. BUT I THINK WE, WE MAY, AS A COMMITTEE NEED TO BE LOOKING MORE BROADLY AT THE LEGACY SYSTEMS. AND I WOULD ASK, UM, IN THE FOLLOWUP THAT I'M GOING TO ASK YOU TO DO, IF YOU CAN MAKE SURE THAT YOU ARE PROVIDING SOME CLARITY ON WHAT THOSE LIMITATIONS ARE FROM THE LEGACY SYSTEMS AND WHAT THE PLAN IS, OR MAYBE OUT OF THOSE SYSTEMS. UM, I UNDERSTAND THAT THOSE ARE A LOT OF INVESTMENTS I'D LIKE TO UNDERSTAND THE MAGNITUDE OF THE SYSTEM.

UM, BECAUSE YOU KNOW, YOU KEEP ONE OFFICER FROM DOING ONE, ONE, YOU KNOW, USE OF FORCE TOO MANY THAT ENDS UP IN A DEATH OF SOMEBODY.

IT MAY BE WORTH IT, YOU KNOW, IT WOULD BE WORTH THE COST OF THAT, UM, SYSTEM FROM A FINANCIAL PERSPECTIVE, TOTALLY APART FROM ALL OF THE OTHER, YOU KNOW, OTHER, THE OTHER, UM, ELEMENTS OF THE IMPROVEMENTS THAT WE'D HAVE IT.

UM, SO, SO I THINK WE NEED TO DO THAT.

I AM, UM, I HAVE OTHER QUESTIONS, BUT I WANT TO OPEN UP TO MY COLLEAGUES, UM, COUNCIL MEMBER KELLY.

CAN ADEQUATELY MANAGE IT, UM, YOU KNOW, KIND OF WITH THE HUMAN HANDS OFF OF IT.

SO MY UNDERSTANDING IS THAT THE EARLY INTERVENTION PROGRAM IS REALLY A, A GOOD STANDARD TO HAVE IN A POLICE DEPARTMENT.

AND THE US DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE HAS A QUOTE IN THEIR EARLY INTERVENTION SYSTEMS MANAGEMENT GUIDE THAT SAYS UTILIZING A GREATER NUMBER OF INDICATORS AND POSES, GREATER ADMINISTRATIVE DEMANDS IN TERMS OF DATA ENTRY AND DATA ANALYSIS, A SMALLER PROBLEM OFFICER SYSTEM WITH FEWER PERFORMANCE INDICATORS WILL BE MUCH LESS EXPENSIVE AND EASIER TO CREATE AND MAINTAIN.

SO MY QUESTION HERE IS HOW CAN WE EXPECT PROPER ADMINISTRATIVE DEMANDS WITHOUT THE ALLOCATION OF POSITIONS TO ANALYZE INDICATORS OR EVEN CREATE MORE INDICATORS? THAT'S MY FIRST QUESTION.

UH, THANK YOU, COUNCIL MEMBER.

AND WHAT I WOULD SAY IS, IS THAT'S WHAT I WAS TRYING TO HIGHLIGHT IS THE MORE INDICATORS THAT WE ADD IN A MANUAL PROCESS, OR TRYING TO ADD THAT TO A SYSTEM THAT WE KNOW IS BROKEN IS NOT REALISTIC.

WE NEED TO, IF WE ARE GOING TO MANAGE THAT TYPE OF DATA, WE HAVE TO HAVE THE SOFTWARE AND THE PROGRAMMING BEHIND IT THAT

[00:50:01]

UM, IN THE MEANTIME, I THINK THAT WHAT WE'RE GOING TO BE LOOKING AT DOING IS SCALING DOWN, UM, BECAUSE WHAT WE HAVE SEEN AND WHAT I THINK THE AUDITOR'S OFFICE, UM, UH, FOUND IN THEIR REPORT, AS WELL AS WHAT YOU JUST HIGHLIGHTED IS THAT IN ORDER TO BE MORE EFFECTIVE, SHOULD WE LOOK AT REDUCING THE NUMBER OF METRICS TO BE MORE PRECISE? AND THAT IS SOMETHING THAT I'M HAVING DISCUSSION WITH MY STAFF RIGHT NOW TO DETERMINE HOW IT'S GOING TO BE BEST TO IMPLEMENT THAT.

SO THAT WE'RE STILL MEETING THE GOALS OF THE EARLY INTERVENTION SYSTEM, WHERE WE'RE TRYING VERY HARD TO IDENTIFY OFFICERS WHO MIGHT BE HAVING SOME ISSUES AND GET THEM THE ASSISTANCE THEY NEED, UM, AND, AND STILL, UM, BE ABLE TO DO IT EFFECTIVELY.

UM, SO THAT IS, AND THEN, YOU KNOW, OF COURSE MEET THE TIMELINE THAT WE'RE OUTLINING IN OUR, IN THE, UH, THE RECOMMENDATION RESPONSE.

SO, UH, ALL OF THAT'S BEING TAKEN INTO ACCOUNT RIGHT NOW.

AND, AND I DEFINITELY HEAR YOU, AND THAT'S WHY I THINK THAT IT'S IMPORTANT THAT WE HAVE A PROGRAM THAT CAN, THAT FROM A AUTOMATED STANDPOINT, IS GOING TO BE ABLE TO PULL THOSE KINDS OF METRICS.

EARLIER, YOU TALKED ABOUT THERE'S ONE PERSON WHO IS RESPONSIBLE FOR COLLECTING THE DATA ON A QUARTERLY BASIS.

COULD YOU MAYBE EXPLAIN OR CLARIFY WHAT OTHER RESPONSIBILITIES THAT EMPLOYEE HAS AND WHAT IT LOOKS LIKE WHEN THEY ARE PULLING THIS INFORMATION AND UTILIZING IT? UM, YOU KNOW, I HAVE A COUPLE OF MY PERSONNEL ON THE LINE RIGHT NOW, AND I'D LIKE TO ASK LIEUTENANT RIGHT.

TO IF HE IS ABLE TO, UH, KIND OF TALK ABOUT WHAT THAT INDIVIDUAL, SOME OF THE OTHER DUTIES THAT INDIVIDUAL HAS.

GOOD MORNING, EVERYONE, UM, LIEUTENANT.

RIGHT.

CAN, CAN YOU ALL HEAR ME? OKAY, THANK YOU.

UM, I'M LIEUTENANT, RIGHT? I'M THE LIEUTENANT OVER THE RISK MANAGEMENT UNIT? UM, PART OF MY UNIT DEALS WITH, UM, UM, COORDINATED TO THE GAP COORDINATOR RESIDES UNDER THE RISK MANAGEMENT UNIT, THAT'S CISSY JONES.

UH, I KNOW SHE SPENT A LOT OF TIME TALKING TO THE AUDITORS, UM, DURING THIS AUDIT PROCESS ABOUT HER ROLE AND WHAT SHE DOES AS OUR GAP COORDINATOR.

UH, IN ADDITION TO BEING OUR GAP COORDINATOR, UH, SISSY IS ALSO OUR POLICY COORDINATOR, UH, THAT ENTAILS, UH, TAKING POLICY REVISIONS, UH, GETTING THEM, UH, FORMATTED APPROPRIATELY, UH, TO ENSURE THAT THEY'RE MEETING OUR INTERNAL STANDARDS, UH, GETTING THEM PUSHED OUT TO COMMITTEES FOR REVIEW, GETTING THAT INFORMATION BACK, AND THEN TO MANY OF THE POLICY, AGAIN, GETTING IT TO EXECUTIVE STAFF FOR REVIEW FOR FINAL APPROVAL.

AND THEN ONCE IT'S FINAL APPROVED, PUSHING IT OUT DEPARTMENT WIDE AND, UH, GETTING THAT, ENSURING THAT THAT'S PUT OUT THROUGH A TRAINING TO ALL OF OUR, UH, PERSONNEL AS WELL.

UH, IN ADDITION TO BEING THE GAP COORDINATOR, SHE'S ALSO A PART OF OUR HUMAN RESOURCES, WORKER'S COMP DIVISION.

AND SO SHE HANDLES A, A LOT OF, UH, HUMAN RESOURCE TASKS ON THE WORKER'S COMP SIDE, UM, DEALING WITH PAPERWORK, RESPONDING TO EMAILS.

UH, SHE ALSO, UM, COORDINATES WITH DEPARTMENTS ACROSS THE NATION, UH, REGARDING POLICY QUESTIONS, UH, FOR OUR DEPARTMENT, UM, SENDING THEM SAMPLES OF OUR POLICY.

SHE COORDINATES WITH OUR, UM, THE, THE COMPANY THAT RUNS OUR HANDLES OUR POLICY, THE, THE PROGRAM LEXIPOL, UM, IN ADDITION TO, UM, A LOT OF OTHER TASKS THAT SHE DOES, SHE'S USUALLY UTILIZED FOR HER ADMINISTRATIVE EXPERTISE, UH, THROUGHOUT THE DEPARTMENT.

UH, SO THE DEMANDS ON HER, UH, AREN'T JUST THE GAP PROGRAM, BUT THEY REALLY DO RUN THE GAMUT OF ANYTHING YOU COULD THINK OF.

UM, AND I WILL COMMEND SISSY, AND I THINK THE AUDITORS WOULD AGREE WITH ME THAT, UH, SHE DOES AN EXCELLENT JOB AT TRYING TO MAINTAIN AND OPERATE THAT GAP PROGRAM.

AND I THINK THE AUDITORS EVEN NOTED THE GOOD FAITH EFFORT THAT SHE'S MADE IN TRYING TO RUN IT.

THE SYSTEM WOULD BASICALLY RUN THE SYSTEM OF WHAT SHE HAS AVAILABLE TO HER.

DOES THAT ANSWER YOUR QUESTION? MA'AM YES, IT DOES.

SO, TO ME, THIS IS A DATA ISSUE, NOT AN ISSUE WHERE OFFICERS ARE NOT BEING HELD ACCOUNTABLE WITH CHECKS AND BALANCES IN PLACE.

OBVIOUSLY IT CAN BE CORRECTED.

I THINK THAT FURTHERMORE, IT SHOWS THAT WE REALLY DO NEED A FULLY STAFFED POLICE DEPARTMENT AND WE NEED OFFICERS SO THAT THEY CAN TAKE TIME OFF AND DECOMPRESS SO THAT THEY ARE LESS LIKELY TO HAVE THESE ISSUES ARISE WITH WHAT THE GAP PROGRAM IS TRYING TO ACCOMPLISH.

AND I WANT TO SUFFICE TO SAY, FINALLY, CHIEF YOU'VE SHOWN TREMENDOUS COMMITMENT TO ACHIEVING THE BEST POSSIBLE OUTCOME WITH THIS MASSIVE RE-IMAGINING EFFORTS AND INCLUDING ENGAGING WITH EXTERNAL STAKEHOLDERS WHILE LOSING A LARGE NUMBER OF OFFICERS.

AND I JUST WANT TO APPLAUD THE EFFORTS THAT YOU'RE TRYING TO RECTIFY THIS ISSUE ALONG WITH SEVERAL OTHERS RIGHT NOW.