Jun 20, 2023 Resource Management

[00:00:04]

SO WE'LL CALL THIS MEETING AT THE AUSTIN RESOURCE MANAGEMENT COMMISSION TO ORDER

[CALL MEETING TO ORDER]

OKAY, NOW IT'S GONE.

UH, FIRST OFF, WE'LL START WITH

[INTRODUCTION OF NEW COMMISSIONERS]

WE HAVE ONE NEW COMMISSIONER JOINING US TODAY.

UM, I HESITATE TO, UH, TO BUTCHER A NAME IN ALL HONESTY.

SO I WOULD ASK, UH, COMMISSIONER SC TO INTRODUCE HERSELF.

.

HI.

THANK YOU.

UM, YOU SAID IT RIGHT, SO GRANT, THAT WAS GREAT.

UH, I'M KELSEY SCAFF.

I, UM, AM AN AUSTIN RESIDENT.

I AM A NONPROFIT ATTORNEY.

I WORK FOR FOUNDATIONS.

UM, I WORK IN-HOUSE, ACTUALLY FOR ONE FOUNDATION, UM, BUT I'VE BEEN IN A NONPROFIT LAW FOR ABOUT 10 YEARS AND WAS IN, UM, CORPORATE VENTURE CAPITAL, UH, LAW BEFORE THAT.

SO BEEN IN AUSTIN FOR A LITTLE OVER A YEAR.

AND, UM, UH, I, I SPECIFICALLY WORK WITH FOUNDATIONS ON, ON CLIMATE.

SO THIS COMMISSION SEEMED, UM, REALLY INTERESTING AND REALLY IMPACTFUL.

SO I'M EXCITED TO MEET YOU ALL AND WORK WITH YOU ALL AND DIVE IN.

OKAY.

VERY GOOD.

UH, WE'LL OPEN

[PUBLIC COMMUNICATION: GENERAL]

DID ANYBODY REGISTER TODAY? NO.

PERFECT.

UH, THEN WE'LL MOVE ON TO THE APPROVAL OF THE MINUTES IN YOUR,

[1. Approve the minutes of the Resource Management Commission Regular Meeting on May 16, 2023]

YOU WERE PROVIDED AHEAD OF TIME.

WE HAVE MINUTES FROM THE MAY 16 MEETING.

IF YOU'RE ABLE TO REVIEW THOSE, MAKE SURE THAT THEY MEET WITH YOUR EXPECTATIONS, AND THEN I'LL BE LOOKING TO ENTERTAIN A MOTION.

I MOVE APPROVAL OF THE MINUTES.

SECOND, COMMISSIONER GARY IS MOVED, AND COMMISSIONER ROBBINS IS SECONDED.

ARE THERE ANY OBJECTIONS? THEN THE MINUTES ARE APPROVED.

UH, MOVING ON TO DISCUSSION

[2. Approve a recommendation regarding the oversight of natural gas utility rates and operations. (Sponsors: Robbins and Davis)]

UM, THIS IS ON THE TABLE IF ANYONE WANTS TO TAKE IT UP.

MAY I? YOU MAY WITH A SECOND.

YES.

.

I BELIEVE WE HAVE TO HAVE A SECOND ON THAT ONE.

NO, NO, NOT TO TAKE IT OFF TABLE.

ALL RIGHT, THEN YOU MAY PROCEED.

IT'S ALREADY ON.

OKAY.

DID, DID YOU GET A SECOND? NO, I'M SORRY.

IT'S, YOU KNOW, I'M STILL LEARNING THE NEW ROBERTS RULES AS WE GO ALONG, SO IT IS OPEN FOR DISCUSSION.

MISS, UH, COMMISSIONER ROBBINS, IF YOU'D LIKE TO TAKE US OUT.

UM, I'VE BEEN ASKED TO KEEP THIS SHORT, AND I WILL, UM, BASICALLY, UH, I'VE BROUGHT THIS UP THE LAST FEW MEETINGS, AND SEVERAL COMMISSIONERS HAVE HEARD ME SPEAK ABOUT THIS BEFORE.

I'M NOT SURE IF, UH, COMMISSIONER SCAFF HAS, UH, UH, THOUGHT ABOUT THIS A LOT, AND IF WE DON'T VOTE ON IT TONIGHT, I'M FINE WITH US VOTING ON IT IN JULY.

BUT, UH, TEXAS GAS SERVICE IS LARGELY UNSUPERVISED BY, UH, THE CITY.

UM, THE ELECTRIC UTILITY COMMISSION, UH, LOOKS AT ELECTRIC RATES.

THE WATER WASTEWATER COMMISSION LOOKS AT WATER RATES.

THE ZERO WASTE ADVISORY COMMISSION LOOKS AT AUSTIN RESOURCE RECOVERY AND THEIR RATES.

BUT TEXAS GAS SERVICE HAS TO A GREAT DEGREE, ALLUDED SCRUTINY BY, UH, BY THE PUBLIC.

UH, SEVERAL ISSUES THAT OUR COMMISSION OR ANOTHER COMMISSION COULD ADDRESS, INCLUDE, UH, EXCUSE ME, INCLUDE FAIR NATURAL GAS RATES, BETTER FRANCHISE AGREEMENTS, UH, AFFORDABILITY FOR LOW AND MODERATE INCOME RATE PAYERS, AND BETTER, UH, OVERVIEW OF, OF ENERGY EFFICIENCY AND CLEAN ENERGY.

WE CAN DO THAT NOW, BUT WE ARE, I THINK WE WOULD BE MORE, UH, EFFECTIVE

[00:05:01]

UM, ONE THING I'LL NOTE, UH, IS THAT REGARDING, UH, CARBON FOOTPRINTS, UH, THE THREE GAS COMPANIES THAT ARE, THAT SERVE AUSTIN, UH, HAVE ABOUT 34% THE CARBON FOOTPRINT OF AUSTIN ENERGY'S COAL AND GAS PLANTS.

UH, SO THEY HAVE A SUBSTANTIAL CONTRIBUTION TO CARBON.

UNLIKE AUSTIN ENERGY, WHICH IS ALREADY AT 50% RENEWABLE, UH, TEXAS GAS SERVICE HAS NO RENEWABLE ENERGY RIGHT NOW, AND NO PLANS THAT I KNOW OF TO DO ANYTHING IN THE NEAR FUTURE.

UM, I AM, UM, YOU ALL HAVE HEARD ME SPEAK ABOUT CONSERVATION AT LENGTH.

I'M ALSO CONCERNED WITH THE LACK OF, UM, A BILL ASSISTANCE PROGRAM FOR LOW INCOME CUSTOMERS.

AUSTIN ENERGY WILL HAVE, UH, 20 AUSTIN ENERGY AND AUSTIN WATER COMBINED SPEND ABOUT 20 MILLION A YEAR, WHEREAS TEXAS GAS SERVICE SPENDS ROUGHLY A HUNDRED THOUSAND DOLLARS.

UM, THIS IS JUST NOT RIGHT, BUT WE REALLY CAN'T COMMENT ON THIS RIGHT NOW TO COUNSEL BECAUSE IT'S NOT IN OUR PURVIEW.

UH, SO I'VE, UH, MADE SOME CURSORY REMARKS.

UM, I, UH, I CAN, UH, ONE OTHER THING THAT I'D LIKE TO JUST HIGHLIGHT IS THAT, UH, BETWEEN 2008 AND 2022, UH, GAS RATES FOR RESIDENTIAL CUSTOMERS HAVE RISEN CLOSE TO A HUNDRED PERCENT, UH, ADJUSTED FOR INFLATION.

UH, SO FOR ALL THESE REASONS, I'D LIKE THE COMMISSION EITHER TONIGHT OR IN THE NEAR FUTURE TO CONSIDER ASKING COUNSEL TO EXPAND OUR PURVIEW.

UM, JANELLE, UH, COMMISSIONER, UH, JANELLE, GARY, UH, CO CO-SPONSORED THE ADDENDUM THAT, UH, BETTER EXPLAINED THE, UH, RESOLUTION.

AND IF, UH, YOU HAVE ANYTHING TO, UH, ADD, PLEASE JOIN IN.

NOT AT THIS TIME.

THANK YOU.

UH, I DO HAVE A QUESTION FOR YOU.

UH, WITH REGARDS TO THESE RESOLUTIONS.

WHAT SPECIFIC SECTIONS OF CITY CODE NEED TO BE AMENDED IN ORDER FOR THESE THINGS TO ACTUALLY BECOME ENACTED? BECAUSE I KNOW THAT IF SOMEBODY BRINGS ME A PROBLEM AND SAYS, HERE, DO THIS THING, I WANT TO KNOW WHAT STEPS THEY ARE, THAT, WHAT STEPS NEED TO BE TAKEN IN ORDER TO BE ABLE TO DO THAT.

ACTUALLY, I ACTUALLY, UH, PUT THAT IN WORDING, UH, AND AT ONE OF OUR FORMER MEETINGS, UH, I THINK YOU'LL FIND IT IN, UH, THE BACKUP MATERIAL.

SO, YES, UH, UM, THIS RESOLUTION WOULD HAVE A COMPANION, UH, OF CHANGING THE CITY CODE, UH, TO DO WHAT THE RESOLUTION PROPOSES.

I HAVE A COUPLE QUESTIONS, BUT I'M NOT SURE.

DO I RAISE MY HAND OR DO I JUST ASK THE QUESTIONS, OR IS THERE AN ORDER? PLEASE GO AHEAD, .

OKAY.

SO I HAVE THREE QUESTIONS.

UM, AND ONE IS SUBSTANTIVE, THE OTHER TWO ARE MORE PROCEDURAL.

SO, UM, THE FIRST ONE IS JUST, I, I KNOW THAT THE PURPOSE OF THIS RESOLUTION IS MAINLY TO EXPAND THE PURVIEW OF THIS COMMISSION, BUT, UM, IN READING THE DRAFT RESOLUTION, I NOTICED THAT IT SAID, UM, IS CHARGING EXISTING CUSTOMERS FOR THE COST OF NEW INFRASTRUCTURE OVER NEW CUSTOMERS, WHICH IT SEEMS LIKE OTHER UTILITY COMPANIES CHARGE NEW CUSTOMERS, UM, FOR THAT INFRASTRUCTURE COSTS.

UM, CAN YOU JUST EXPLAIN HOW, HOW, HOW DOES THAT WORK THAT THEY JUST, THEY ARE ADDING FLAT FEES ONTO EXISTING CUSTOMERS AND, AND TRADITIONALLY COMPANIES HAVE LIKE A NEW UP AN UPFRONT, YOU KNOW, HOOKUP FEE FOR NEW CUSTOMERS, WHICH IS HOW THE NEW CUSTOMERS ARE.

YOU KNOW, CUZ YOU'RE, SOME, IT SEEMS LIKE YOU'RE ADVOCATING THAT THAT'S A BETTER WAY TO CHARGE NEW CUSTOMERS FOR THE INFRASTRUCTURE VERSUS EXISTING

[00:10:01]

SO I WAS JUST TRYING TO UNDERSTAND THAT A LITTLE BIT BETTER.

AUSTIN ENERGY HAS, UH, UH, FINANCIAL DEVICE CALLED A CAPITAL RECOVERY FEE.

AND SEVERAL YEARS AGO THE COUNCIL MADE A SPECIFIC, UH, POLICY DECISION TO COLLECT 100%, UH, OF THE COST OF NEW CUSTOMER.

NOW THAT, UH, I SHOULD, THAT IS FOR THE INFRASTRUCTURE DIRECTLY SURROUNDING THE DEVELOPMENT, THE POWER LINES, THE METER, THE TRANSFORMERS.

IT DOES NOT INCLUDE THE POWER PLANTS.

UH, I THINK IT SHOULD, AND MAYBE THAT WILL HAPPEN IN THE FUTURE, BUT AT ANY RATE, IT, IT DEALS DIRECTLY WITH, UH, 100% OF THE COSTS SURROUNDING THE DEVELOPMENT.

UH, OTHER, UH, UH, AND IN WATER, THEY CALL IT CAPITAL RECOVERY FEE.

IN ELECTRICITY, THEY CALL IT CAPITAL.

UH, IN AID OF CONSTRUCTION, CAC, IT'S THE SAME THING.

IT'S JUST A DIFFERENT NAME.

AND DURING THE LAST RATE CASE, I ASKED FOR THE AMOUNTS THAT, UH, WERE COLLECTED, UH, FROM NEW HOOKUPS YEAR BY YEAR, AND, UH, IN DISCOVERY.

UM, AND CAME UP WITH AN ESTIMATE THAT TEXAS GAS SERVICE WAS COLLECTING ROUGHLY 10% OF ITS COSTS FROM NEW CUSTOMERS.

UM, IF TEXAS GAS SERVICE WERE TO DO WHAT AUSTIN ENERGY DID, THEIR RATES WOULD BE LOWER, EXISTING CUSTOMERS WOULD HAVE LOWER RATES.

YES.

CUZ RIGHT NOW EXISTING CUSTOMERS ARE PAYING THE GAP BETWEEN 10% AND A HUNDRED PERCENT.

AND, AND, AND THIS IS INFRASTRUCTURE THAT'S JUST HELPING THE NEW CUSTOMERS? UM, TO MY KNOWLEDGE, YES.

THAT'S THE WAY I RECALL ASKING THE QUESTION, UH, UH, IN DISCOVERY.

AND IF, IF YOU WANT, I CAN PROBABLY, IT'LL TAKE ME A WHILE, BUT I COULD PROBABLY FIND IT AND, AND ACTUALLY SHOW YOU WHAT WAS GIVEN TO ME.

YEAH, NO, I DON'T WANNA, I DON'T WANNA CREATE MORE WORK.

THAT'S REALLY HELPFUL.

I WAS JUST TRYING TO UNDERSTAND THE REASONING FOR WHY YOU WOULD ONLY WANNA CHARGE NEW CUSTOMERS FOR THE INFRASTRUCTURE, BUT IT SOUNDS LIKE IT'S THE INFRASTRUCTURE THAT'S LARGELY BENEFITING THEM.

SO IT'S JUST THE PARTY THAT'S BENEFITING IS THE PARTY THAT PAYS VERSUS SPREADING IT AROUND TO EXISTING, UM, RATES WILL COVER THE COST OF EXISTING INFRASTRUCTURE AND THE MAINTENANCE OF IT.

MM-HMM.

.

OKAY, THAT MAKES A LOT OF SENSE.

UM, OKAY.

AND THEN MY OTHER TWO QUESTIONS ARE LARGELY JUST EDIT SLASH PROCEDURAL.

SO MY SECOND QUESTION IS, UM, IN LOOKING AT THIS DRAFT, IT LOOKS LIKE THERE, AT THE END OF PAGE ONE, THERE IS A, THERE IS A, THERE IS RESOLUTION LANGUAGE THERE BE IT RESOLVED, BUT THEN ON PAGE TWO THERE WAS A TWO MORE WHEREASES CLAUSES AND THEN ANOTHER, THEREFORE BE IT RESOLVED.

SO DO WE NEED BOTH OR CAN WE, UM, SOUNDS LIKE, SEEMS LIKE WE COULD TAKE OUT ONE OF THEM.

UM, HONESTLY, UM, OKAY.

I HAVE IN FRONT OF ME THE LONG VERSION.

UM, A FORMER COMMISSIONER SUGGESTED THAT I KEEP IT SIMPLE, SO I TOOK OUT ALL ALMOST EVERYTHING AND JUST KEPT THE BE IT RESOLVED.

HONESTLY, I PREFER THE LONG ONE AND, UM, I GUESS IT WAS CLUMSY OF ME TO, TO HAVE IT.

UH, OH, I SEE.

SORRY, THESE ARE TWO DIFFERENT DRAFTS.

ONE IS THE LONG DRAFT AND ONE IS THE SHORT DRAFT.

I SEE.

I THOUGHT THEY WERE PART OF ONE DRAFT.

I, I SEE IT NOW.

AND AGAIN, UH, MAYBE IT WAS CLUMSY OF ME FOR TO, FOR, TO, MAYBE IT WAS CLUMSY OF ME TO LEAVE IT THAT WAY.

UM, NO, I, I UNDERSTAND THAT.

UM, THIS, THIS IS GOOD

[00:15:01]

UM, AND THEN THE LAST QUESTION I HAVE THEN I'LL BE DONE.

IT'S JUST THERE ARE TWO DOCUMENTS.

SO THERE'S THESE TWO DRAFTS AND THEN THERE'S, UH, A MUCH MORE, YOU KNOW, UM, SP SPECIFIC RECOMMENDATION OR IT HAS LIKE THIS BACKGROUND AND ALL THIS OTHER INFORMATION.

IS THAT JUST TO HELP THIS COMMISSION UNDERSTAND THE BACKGROUND OR WAS THERE SOME RECOMMENDATION TO BE SUBMITTING ANY OF THE INFORMATION THAT'S UP ON THE SCREEN RIGHT NOW TO COUNSEL? COMMISSIONER GARY RECOMMENDED THAT I WRITE A MORE DETAILED EXPLANATION AND I DID SO.

OKAY.

OKAY.

THANK YOU.

I REALLY APPRECIATE IT.

FOR, FOR WHAT IT'S WORTH, I DO THINK, UM, I, I THINK THAT THE INFORMATION, THE LONGER VERSION'S REALLY HELPFUL, BUT I THINK, UM, THE SHORT VERSION, WHICH IS JUST ESSENTIALLY THAT THERE'S NO, YOU KNOW, COMMISSION THAT HAS PURVIEW OVER THIS AND THAT THEREFORE WE SHOULD BE GRANTED, YOU KNOW, THE ABILITY TO LOOK INTO THIS.

IS IT, IT IS PROBABLY MORE STRAIGHTFORWARD FOR COUNSEL.

I DON'T KNOW, IN THE LONGER VERSION IF IT WOULD SEEM LIKE, UM, WE, WE NECESSARILY HAVE AN OPINION ON A LOT OF THESE THINGS BEFORE WE'RE ABLE TO REALLY GET IN THERE AND, AND BE ABLE TO LOOK AT IT IN DEPTH.

THAT'S JUST MY THOUGHTS.

UM, WELL, UH, I, I WILL GO WITH WHICHEVER VERSION THIS COMMISSION CHOOSES.

GRATEFULLY, I MIGHT ADD, I PREFER THE SHORTER VERSION AS WELL.

I THINK WE WANT TO APPEAR AS A RELATIVELY NEUTRAL PARTY IF WE'RE INTERESTED IN ADVISING CITY COUNCIL ON, UM, YOU KNOW, CHANGING ANYTHING THAT TEXAS GAS IS DOING.

UM, SO I THINK THAT WE APPEAR STRONGER COMING FROM THE STANDPOINT OF, UH, THE SHORTER RESOLUTION AS OPPOSED TO THE LONGER ONE.

IT'S FINE WITH ME.

UH, COMMISSIONER ROBBINS, I WENT THROUGH THE BACKUP THAT YOU PROVIDED, AND I DO NOT SEE A REFERENCE TO THE SPECIFIC CODE SECTIONS THAT WE NEED TO MODIFY.

I DON'T KNOW IF THAT'S, UH, BUT I DID NOTICE THAT WE HAD A COUPLE OF RETREADED PAGES WITHIN THE DOCUMENT, LIKE PAGES THREE AND FOUR WERE THERE TWICE.

I DON'T KNOW, MAYBE THERE WAS SOMETHING THERE WHERE THEY JUST, I I COULDN'T FIND A REFERENCE TO A CODE SECTION, UH, COMMISSIONER STONE, UM, I DO NOT HAVE A LAPTOP COMPUTER HERE, SO IF YOU WOULD LIKE ME TO TRY AND FIND IT, UH, AND, UH, IT'LL TAKE ME A COUPLE MINUTES.

UM, MY, MY RECOMMENDATION WOULD BE THAT WHEN THIS DOES COME UP FOR A FORMAL VOTE THAT WE HAVE, UH, UH, THEREFORE LANGUAGE THAT INCLUDES, UH, AMENDMENT TO CITY CODE SECTION, WHATEVER IT IS, THE NUMBER, YOU KNOW, UH, SCOPING OUT THE, THE, THE PURPOSE OF THE RESOURCE MANAGEMENT COMMISSION AND THEN ALSO HAVE AN ADDITIONAL SECTION.

SO IT'D BE LIKE, LET'S SAY SECTION 1, 23 0.5, AND THEN A IS OUR CURRENT PURVIEW.

AND THEN YOU WOULD ADD A B AND SAY, UH, NEGOTIA ASSIST IN NEGOTIATION OF NATIONAL GAS RATES, NATURAL GAS RATES, OR WHATEVER THAT LANGUAGE MIGHT LOOK LIKE.

SO YOU WANT TO PUNT THIS TILL JULY.

I WOULD PROBABLY PUNT IT TO JULY SO THAT WE CAN HAVE THE, WE CAN HAVE MORE FORMALIZED LANGUAGE FOR COUNCIL BECAUSE LIKE I SAID, IT, THE BOTH OF THESE RESOLUTIONS AS THEY STAND, MY CONCERN IS YOU'RE BASICALLY SAYING, WE WANT TO INSERT OURSELVES IN THIS, YOU FIGURE OUT HOW NO.

AS OPPOSED TO GIVING THEM A PLAYBOOK.

I, I'M POSITIVE THAT, UH, I DID THIS BEFORE AND IF YOU GIVE ME FIVE OR SIX MINUTES, I WILL FIND IT.

UH, UH, MS. GOODWIN, UH, IS YOUR COMPUTER SEARCHABLE? IF I GOT ON IT, COULD I, COULD WE FIND, UH, PAST, UH, UH, MINUTES AND PAST PROCEEDINGS OF THE COMMISSION? UH, BUT I THINK HE, FROM WHAT THE CHAIR WAS SAYING, IT'LL READ BETTER WITH BOTH INSIDE THE DOCUMENT.

DOES THAT MAKE SENSE? IT'S A FORMALITY TO, UH, ATTACH THE TWO.

UH, WHAT I'M TRYING TO SAY IS HIS CONCERN IS ALREADY

[00:20:01]

SORRY, CAN I JUMP IN REAL FAST? UH, YES, GO AHEAD, COMMISSIONER JOHNSON.

SO, SO, UH, I FOUND, I ALREADY FOUND THE DOCUMENT, UH, IT'S JUST IN A, OR WHILE I WAS SEARCHING FOR IT WHILE THE QUESTIONS WERE BEING ASKED EARLIER, UH, THE DOCUMENT THAT PAUL, UH, SHOWED WHAT BASICALLY WHAT AMENDMENTS TO CITY CODE BE NEEDED? UH, IT'S IN THE JANUARY 17TH RMC MEETING PACKET.

UM, SO YOU JUST NEED TO, FOR, YOU KNOW, FOR EACH OF US INDIVIDUALLY, WE WOULD JUST NEED TO LOOK BACK THERE OR GET IT FORWARDED TO THE NEW COMMISSIONER, FOR EXAMPLE.

UM, BUT THEN YEAH, I I CAN WE JUST ADD THAT WE PROBABLY CAN, ARE WE ALLOWED TO ADD THAT TO THIS PARENT MEETING PACKET OR IS THAT SOMETHING WHERE THE, IT NEEDS TO BE ADDED TO THE, UH, AGENDA IN ADVANCE? YOU ARE ABLE TO PROPOSE AMENDMENTS TO, UH, UH, A RESOLUTION THAT WE HAVE.

UM, YOU WOULD JUST NEED TO GIVE GOOD WORDING FOR IT IN ORDER TO BE ABLE TO DO THAT.

SO YOU'D WANNA SAY AMENDING CITY CODE 1 23 0.5 A FOUR TO READ WHATEVER IT IS.

AND I'M JUST MAKING UP A NUMBER, BUT IT WOULD HAVE TO BE IN THAT FORMAT SO WE COULD INCLUDE IT WITHIN THE RESOLUTION SH FIRST.

THANK YOU.

OKAY.

WELL, YEAH, I'LL, AND YEAH, NO WORRIES PAUL.

AND I'LL, I'LL JUST GO AHEAD AND, UH, UH, FORWARD THIS, OR I HAVE NATASHA FORWARD THIS EMAIL, BUT, UM, YEAH, I CAN, WE CAN GET THAT INFORMATION TO EACH OF US QUICKLY.

CAN I, CAN I ASK, UH, UM, I'D LIKE TO HEAR FROM OTHER COMMISSIONERS HOW THEY ARE, ARE FEELING ABOUT THE, THE OPTION OR THE SUGGESTION TO INCLUDE THE LANGUAGE, UM, YOU KNOW, AMENDING CITY CODE WITH RESPECT TO THE RESOURCE MANAGEMENT COMMISSION TO DASH ONE DASH 1 68 B OR WHATEVER IT MAY BE, WHERE IT EXCLUDES THE USE OF, UM, YOU KNOW, IT READS WHERE IT, UM, MAINTAINING OVERVIEW OF ALL PROGRAMS, STUDIES, PROPOSALS CONCERNING EFFICIENT USE OF ENERGY, DOT, DOT, DOT EXCLUDING NATURAL GAS.

SO THAT WOULD BE, UM, I BELIEVE WHAT WE WOULD NEED TO AMEND JUST KIND OF TAKING OUT THAT, THAT CARVE OUT FROM THAT PIECE OF CODE.

IS THAT SOMETHING THAT I JUST WANNA KNOW IF, IF, IS THAT SOMETHING WE ARE THINKING WE COULD DO THIS EVENING OR, OR WOULD WE PREFER TO RE YOU KNOW, TO PUNT TILL JUNE? I'M OKAY EITHER WAY.

UH, IF I CAN SPEAK CANDIDLY, MY PREFERENCE WOULD BE TO, UH, DELAY FURTHER ACTION ON THIS UNTIL JULY WHEN WE HAVE A CLEANED UP VERSION OF THIS TO ACTUALLY BE ABLE TO VOTE ON.

UM, AND I ALSO STILL HAVE SOME OTHER QUESTIONS FOR COMMISSIONER ROBBINS AS WELL.

UM, BUT I AM ONLY ONE VOTE.

SO WHAT, WHAT ARE THEY? UH, WELL, ONE QUESTION THAT I HAVE IN PARTICULAR, UH, IS UNDERSTANDING HOW GAS RATES ARE CURRENTLY APPROVED.

THE CITY OF AUSTIN RECEIVES ITS RATE CASE FROM TEXAS GAS CITY OF AUSTIN.

RATHER THAN REVIEW THOUSANDS OF PAGES OF DOCUMENTATION AND SUPPORTING SCHEDULES WILL BY DEFAULT REJECT THE RATE CASE APPLICATION AND SEND IT TO THE RAILROAD COMMISSION FOR FURTHER REVIEW AND NEGOTIATION.

SO IF THAT IS, GENERALLY SPEAKING, HOW THE PROCESS GOES, HOW DO WE REMAIN RELEVANT IF THE CITY DECIDES TO ESSENTIALLY PUNT THAT TO THE RAILROAD COMMISSION? WELL, THAT IS MY QUESTION.

OKAY.

I, I'LL FEEL THAT AS BEST I CAN.

AND, UH, LARRY GRAHAM WITH TEXAS GAS SERVICE HAS HIS HAND UP, AND I'M SURE WE'RE GONNA DISAGREE ON THIS PARTIALLY, BUT, UM, I, WE ARE THE PRIMARY REGULATOR

[00:25:01]

THEY HIRE A CONSULTANT, THEY HIRE, UM, A LAWYER, UH, THEY REVIEW THE EVIDENCE, THEY GO THROUGH DISCOVERY, UH, AND THEN IT'S BROUGHT BEFORE THE CITY COUNCIL.

THEY, THEY DO INDEED, UH, ACCEPT OR REJECT IT.

AND THEN, UM, IT CAN BE APPEALED TO THE TEXAS RAILROAD COMMISSION.

DOESN'T ALWAYS HAPPEN, BUT IT CAN HAPPEN.

UH, THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN, UM, AUSTIN ENERGY, WHICH HAS A VERY SOPHISTICATED AND ELABORATE RATE CASE PROCESS AND TEXAS GAS SERVICE IS THERE IS NO GROUP OF CITIZENS THAT REVIEWS AND ADVISES IT CURRENTLY.

UM, THE CITY COUNCIL, UH, ONLY HEARS FROM, UH, A CLOSED GROUP OF PEOPLE.

THEY DO NOT GET TO HEAR FROM ADVISORY COMMISSIONS OR THE GENERAL PUBLIC AS A RULE.

THERE, THERE ARE, I MEAN, THERE MAY BE A PUBLIC HEARING, BUT IT'S NOT VERY WELL ADVERTISED.

UH, IT'S, UH, NOT VERY USUALLY WELL ATTENDED.

SO WE WOULD BE THE EYES AND EARS OF COUNSEL.

LARRY, COULD I ASK YOU A COUPLE OF QUESTIONS? SURE.

DO YOU WANNA GO ON AHEAD AND TAKE YOUR CUSTOMARY PODIUM? I THINK THAT WOULD BE HELPFUL.

UH, WE DO HAVE SOME NEW PEOPLE ON THE COMMISSION, SO IF YOU COULD ALSO INTRODUCE YOURSELF AS WELL, PLEASE.

SURE.

GOOD EVENING.

MY NAME'S LARRY GRAHAM.

I'M WITH TEXAS GAS SERVICE, AND, UM, I GET TO REPRESENT US AT THE, THESE RESOURCE MANAGEMENT COMMISSION MEETINGS.

YOU WANT ME TO, YOU WANNA ANSWER SOME QUESTIONS? UH, WELL, FIRST, MY FIRST QUESTION IS, IS, UH, I MEAN, YOU HEARD PAUL AND I KIND OF GIVE A LITTLE BIT DIFFERING ACCOUNTS, I GUESS, OF HOW THE RATE CASE NORMALLY PROGRESSES.

SO MY FIRST QUESTION FOR YOU WOULD BE, HOW MANY TIMES IN THE LAST, LET'S SAY FIVE SUBMISSIONS FROM TEXAS GAS, UH, FOR A RATE CASE, HAS CITY COUNCIL ACTUALLY NEGOTIATED WITH, WITH TEXAS GAS AND APPROVED IT DIRECTLY WITHOUT IT GOING TO THE RAILROAD COMMISSION? UM, I THINK THE LAST TWO CASES, SO THE, THE LAST CASE WAS 2020 AND I CAN'T REMEMBER BEFORE THAT.

PROBABLY 2016.

PROBABLY 2016.

THANK YOU PAUL .

UM, THOSE CASES, I, YOU AND PAUL WERE CLOSE, BUT IT'S A LITTLE BIT DIFFERENT.

OKAY.

UM, WE FILED WITH THE CITY OF AUSTIN AND THE OTHER CITIES IN THE SERVICE TERRITORY.

SO IT'S NOT JUST AUSTIN THOUGH.

AUSTIN IS THE BIGGEST, AND AT THE SAME TIME WE FILE WITH THE RAILROAD COMMISSION OF TEXAS, THEY HAVE ORIGINAL JURISDICTION OVER CUSTOMERS AND UNINCORPORATED AREAS.

SO FOR EXAMPLE, WE HAVE 20,000 CUSTOMERS IN TRAVIS COUNTY THAT ARE UNINCORPORATED.

SO WE FILE WITH BOTH.

AND THEN WHAT HAPPENS THE LAST TWO RATE CASES IS THAT THE CITY OF AUSTIN WILL, UM, FILE TO, THEY WILL INTERVENE IN THE CASE AT THE RAILROAD COMMISSION.

SO THE CASE IS HELD AND ADJUDICATED AT THE RAILROAD COMMISSION.

AND THE CITY OF AUSTIN HAS ALWAYS HIRED, UM, AN ATTORNEY AND STAFF TO REPRESENT THEM.

IT'S HANDLED BY THE, UH, THE LEGAL DEPARTMENT.

AND, YOU KNOW, JUST TO GO BACK TO WHAT WAS SAID EARLIER, I MEAN, LAST TIME IN, IN 2020, I DON'T KNOW, THERE ARE 200, 220 RFIS.

THEY COLLECT A WHOLE LOT OF INFORMATION.

AND WHAT HAPPENS IS THE FOLKS THAT INTERVENE AND THE STAFF AT THE RAILROAD COMMISSION AND TEXAS GAS SERVICE HAVE BEEN ABLE TO COME UP WITH A SETTLEMENT THAT ALL THE PARTIES AGREE WITH, AND THAT SETTLEMENT THEN GOES BACK TO THE CITY COUNCIL FOR APPROVAL.

IF THEY WERE TO DENY IT, THEN WE WOULD APPEAL THAT TO THE COMMISSION.

UM, SO YOU GUYS ARE ARE CLOSE, BUT I, I THINK THERE'S A, I THINK FOLKS THINK THERE'S A PARALLEL BETWEEN AUSTIN ENERGY AND US, OR THE WATER UTILITY.

AND I THINK IT'S DIFFERENT BECAUSE THE CITY OF AUSTIN IS A REGULATOR, BUT THEY ARE NOT THE ULTIMATE REGULATOR, THE ULTIMATE BODY THAT DECIDES

[00:30:01]

AND AGAIN, THE CITY IS WELL REPRESENTED, THEIR INTERESTS ARE WELL REPRESENTED, UH, BY LEGAL COUNSEL AND A WHOLE BUNCH OF PEOPLE THAT DO THIS, THAT REPRESENT THE CITY.

AND I THINK, I THINK PAUL IS ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.

THERE HASN'T BEEN HIS, HIS ONE POINT, I'LL GIVE HIM THIS ONE POINT THAT THE, YOU KNOW, THE RESOURCE MANAGEMENT COMMISSION AND THE PUBLIC HASN'T BEEN INVOLVED, BUT THAT, I THINK THAT'S AN ISSUE FOR THE CITY COUNCIL AND YOU GUYS AND THE LEGAL DEPARTMENT TO HASH OUT HOW YOU WANT TO GET INVOLVEMENT.

AND I GUESS OUR CONCERN REALLY IS DURING A RAY CASE, ARE WE GONNA BE ASKED TO RESPOND TO RFIS FROM PAUL SIMULTANEOUSLY WITH THE, UH, THE CITY'S ATTORNEY? I MEAN, IT GETS A LITTLE MESSY IF WE HAVE TWO DIFFERENT PEOPLE, UM, INVOLVED IN THE CASE.

AND IT'S NOT THAT THE CITY DOESN'T HAVE REPRESENTATION, THEY DO.

THE QUESTION REALLY IS HOW TO GET THIS BODY AND PAUL AND THE PUBLIC'S CONCERNS AND QUESTIONS AND INTERESTS REPRESENTED BY THE ATTORNEY THAT THE CITY, UM, HIRES TO REPRESENT THE CITY.

AND THE LAST, UM, I DON'T WANNA INTERRUPT YOU, ARE YOU TRUE? I'M, I'M DONE.

OKAY.

COMMISSIONER ROBBINS, IN THE LAST RATE CASE, UH, THE RESOURCE MANAGEMENT COMMISSION ACTUALLY DID MAKE A ONE RECOMMENDATION THAT IT WAS ALLOWED TO, WHICH IS THE SHAPE OF THE RATES, WHETHER IT WAS PROGRESSIVE OR REGRESSIVE.

UH, AS MOST OF YOU KNOW, UH, REGRESSIVE RATES ARE WHERE THE MORE YOU USE, THE LESS YOU PAY PER UNIT.

AND PROGRESSIVE RATES ARE THE OPPOSITE.

PROGRESSIVE RATES ARE GOOD FOR CONSERVATION AND THEY ALSO ASSIST THE POOR WHO GENERALLY USE LESS ENERGY, UH, CUZ THEY SIMPLY CAN'T AFFORD IT.

UH, AND THE ONE THING THAT R M C DID DO WAS ASK COUNSEL TO MAKE THE RATES PROGRESSIVE.

THEY WERE, WE WERE, R M C WAS MILDLY SUCCESSFUL.

IT WAS, IT MADE A VERY BAD REGRESSIVE RATE STRUCTURE SLIGHTLY LESS BAD.

UM, IT, IT DIDN'T REALLY CORRECT THE PROBLEM.

UM, ANOTHER THING THAT I WILL, UM, COMMENT ON IS THAT, UH, COUNSEL DID NOT APPROVE THE LAST, UH, RATE CASE.

THEY KIND OF PRE-APPROVED IT.

UM, THEY MORE OR LESS SAID, HERE'S WHAT WE WANT, YOU GUYS ALL GO MAKE A DEAL.

AND THEN THEY DID NOT VOTE ON IT AT THE END.

THAT IS WAY DIFFERENT THAN THINGS USUALLY GO OVER THERE, BUT THAT'S THE WAY IT WENT.

AND IT WAS C O D AND, UM, I REALLY, I PROTESTED, BUT I MEAN, THERE WAS LITERALLY NO WAY I COULD STAND IN FRONT OF COUNSEL BECAUSE THEY WEREN'T HOLDING MEETINGS WHERE YOU COULD STAND IN FRONT OF COUNSEL.

I MIGHT HAVE TRIED TO SAY THIS DURING A CITIZEN COMMENT, BUT IT WASN'T QUITE THE SAME THING.

SO, UM, I'M, I'M JUST TRYING TO, UM, BE DEFINITIVE, UH, AND I'LL STOP THERE.

I JUST ASK A QUESTION.

I'M, I'M NOT, I GUESS IT'S JUST FOR WHO DEBORAH CAN ANSWER THIS, BUT IT, IT SEEMS, SEEMS COMMISSIONER SC YOU'RE RECOGNIZED, I'M GONNA START GOING BACK TO RECOGNIZING PEOPLE AGAIN.

.

OKAY, GO AHEAD.

OKAY.

UM, THIS QUESTION IS JUST FOR WHOEVER CAN ANSWER THIS OR, UM, WHOEVER THIS APPEALS TO, BUT IT SEEMS TO ME THAT THE ARGUMENT THAT THERE IS LAWYERS INVOLVED, THAT THERE'S REPRESENTATION STILL DOESN'T, UM, NEGATE THE FACT THAT CITY COUNCIL IS DOING A LOT.

AND THAT'S WHY THEY HAVE THESE COMMISSIONS IS SO THAT SOMEBODY, A GROUP OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE MORE TIME, WHO CAN, YOU KNOW, MAKE LARGER RECOMMENDATIONS, YOU KNOW, THAT SOMEBODY HAS OVERSIGHT ON THIS.

AND SO I, I'M NOT SURE THAT THE FACT THAT THERE IS LEGAL COUNSEL OR THAT THERE IS REPRESENTATION, UM, THE COUNSEL COUNCIL'S REPRESENTED.

I'M NOT SURE IF THAT NEGATES WHAT WE'RE TRYING TO DO HERE, WHICH IS THAT,

[00:35:01]

UM, AND I ALSO, D I, SO I GUESS THE QUESTION IS, IS I WOULD ASSUME, BUT I'M NOT SURE THAT OTHER, THERE'S OTHER ARENAS, WHETHER IT'S, YOU KNOW, WITH AUSTIN ENERGY RATE CASES AND OTHER UTILITIES WHERE, YOU KNOW, COUNCIL IS REPRESENTED, BUT THERE ARE STILL COMMISSIONS WHO ARE ADVISING ON THINGS, UM, AND GIVING INPUT.

UM, THAT'S QUESTION ONE.

AND THEN JUST A STATEMENT TO SAY, I DON'T THINK THAT OUR I IDEA HERE WOULD BE TO BE NEGOTIATING REDLINING AND, UH, LONG RATE CASE OR RATE AGREEMENT BETWEEN, UM, THE CITY AND, AND TEXAS GAS.

I THINK IT WOULD BE MORE LIKE, HERE ARE THE THINGS THAT ARE IMPORTANT, HERE ARE THE STATISTICS THAT ARE REALLY EYEOPENING AS A MEMBER OF THE PUBLIC, AND THEY'RE THINGS THAT AS THE COUNCIL IS FINALIZING PLANS THAT THEY SHOULD BE AWARE OF AND BE MINDFUL OF.

UM, SO I'LL STOP THERE.

YES, SIR.

LARRY, MAY I RESPOND? YES, PLEASE.

YEAH, I MEAN, I, A COUPLE THINGS.

I DON'T THINK WE'RE SAYING THAT THE RESOURCE MANAGEMENT COMMISSION SHOULDN'T, UM, PROVIDE INPUT.

I, I THINK WHAT OUR POSITION IS IS THE COMMISSION AND THE COUNCIL, YOU GUYS HAVE TO WORK IT OUT.

IT, IT, UM, YOU KNOW, DURING A RATE, LIKE, I DON'T KNOW HOW THIS WOULD PLAY OUT, BUT DURING THE RATE CASE, WHAT WE DON'T WANT IS TO BE KIND OF BEHOLDEN TO TWO DIFFERENT PARTIES REPRESENTING THE CITY, RIGHT? IS IT THE RESOURCE MANAGEMENT COMMISSION? IS IT THE ATTORNEY? RIGHT.

AND I, I THINK THERE'S WAYS THIS COULD BE DONE, UM, BUT I DO THINK IT IS DIFFERENT THAN THE CITY OWNED AND OPERATED UTILITIES.

AND AGAIN, UM, I'M GONNA DISAGREE WITH PAUL BECAUSE I'M SURE THE COUNCIL APPROVED THE, UM, THE SETTLEMENT AGREEMENT.

UM, I, I MEAN, I WOULD BE SURPRISED.

SO, UH, THE OTHER THING IS, I, IT'S IMPORTANT FOR YOU ALL TO KNOW THAT, UM, AS MUCH AS I ADMIRE AND RESPECT PAUL, I DON'T AGREE WITH ALL OF THE THINGS HE HAS SAID ABOUT US.

AND WE'VE HAD, WE'VE DISCUSSED, I'M SHOCKED, BUT YOU KNOW, I DON'T, WE DON'T FEEL THE RATES ARE REGRESSIVE, THEY'RE NOT LOWER.

THE MORE YOU USE, THEY DON'T INCENT PEOPLE.

PAUL AND I HAVE HAD THAT DISCUSSION FOR 10 OR 12 YEARS, SO JUST SO EVERYBODY KNOWS THOSE THINGS THAT PAUL SAID, WE DON'T NECESSARILY, UM, AGREE WITH, BUT, YOU KNOW, WE'RE HAPPY TO DISCUSS AND, YOU KNOW, PAUL'S GONNA MAKE US A BETTER UTILITY.

SO THAT'S GOOD.

UH, I HAVE A QUESTION FOR COMMISSIONER ROBBINS.

IS THERE ANOTHER COMMISSION OR, OR BOARD WITHIN THE CITY OF AUSTIN STRUCTURE THAT WOULD BE BE BETTER SUITED TO DO ANALYSIS ON A RATE CASE THAN RESOURCE MANAGEMENT COMMISSION? UM, UH, I HAVE TO RESPOND TO LARRY'S COMMENT THAT I'M GOING TO MAKE THEM A BETTER UTILITY.

I'M FLATTERED.

UH, NOW TO YOUR QUESTION, UH, THE ONLY OTHER COMMISSION THAT WOULD, UH, BE IN THIS BALLPARK WOULD BE THE ELECTRIC UTILITY COMMISSION.

AND I DON'T THINK THEY'RE INTERESTED.

UH, DURING DISCUSSIONS ON THIS ISSUE PREVIOUSLY, UH, COMMISSIONER DAVIS, UH, TRIED TO, UH, SAID THAT SHE WAS INTERESTED IN REACHING OUT TO THEM AND SHE COULD, UH, NEVER GET, UH, FEEDBACK FROM THE PERSON SHE CONTACTED.

I DON'T WANNA SPEAK FOR YOU, BUT THAT WAS MY UNDERSTANDING.

AND, UM, UM, I I, I, IF THE COUNCIL LOOKS AT THIS AND SAYS, YOU KNOW, GOOD IDEA, BUT WE WANNA DO THIS WITH THE EUC INSTEAD OF THE RMC, I DON'T THINK THAT'D BE A BAD IDEA, BUT THAT WOULD BE THE ONLY OTHER COMMISSION.

COMMISSIONER DAVIS, UH, CHAIR, THANK YOU.

YEAH, JUST TO, UM, FOR THE BENEFIT OF THE OTHER COMMISSIONERS, UM, I, I DID HAVE A CONVERSATION, UH, WITHIN THE LAST COUPLE OF MONTHS, UH, WITH ONE OF THE COMMISSIONERS ON THE E U C, FORMER COMMISSIONER OF THE R M C, UM, AS WELL AS, UM, EX EXCHANGE EMAILS WITH THE, WITH THE CURRENT CHAIR.

AND, UM, PAUL IS CORRECT IN, IN SAYING THAT THEIR POSITION, UH, WAS THAT THEY WOULD FOCUS ON ELECTRICITY, UM, AND NOT, UH, NOT

[00:40:01]

SO, BUT, YOU KNOW, I DO CONCUR WITH, WITH PAUL'S SENTIMENT AS WELL, THAT, YOU KNOW, IF COUNCIL WERE TO SAY, UM, YOU KNOW, BECAUSE OF US BRINGING THIS TO LIGHT, THAT THERE REALLY SHOULD BE SOME CITIZEN, YOU KNOW, OVER, YOU KNOW, OVERSIGHT OR SOME CITIZEN, UH, REVIEW OF THE GAS UTILITY AS WELL.

UM, YOU KNOW, WHERE THEY CHOOSE TO, TO LOCATE THAT, I THINK IS, YOU KNOW, THAT'S UP TO THEM.

UH, I HAVE ANOTHER QUESTION FOR, OH, I'M, I'M SORRY.

COMMISSIONER BRIAN, YOU GO FIRST.

I'LL SAVE MINE.

HI, I HAVE A QUESTION FOR LARRY.

UM, I'M CURIOUS, WE'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT THE, THE RATE ADJUSTMENT OPPORTUNITY THAT CITY COUNCIL AND THE RAILROAD COMMISSION BASE.

ARE THERE OTHER OPPORTUNITIES THAT WOULD BE RELEVANT FOR US TO, UM, I GUESS HAVE INPUT ON AS OPPOSED LIKE IN ADDITION TO THAT OR, YOU KNOW, MAYBE INSTEAD OF, WELL, THE, UM, HOW WE DO RATES IS GOVERNED BY STATE LAW, AND THERE'S A SYSTEM WHERE WE DO INTERIM RATE ADJUSTMENTS, UM, AND WE HAVE TO HAVE A RATE CA IF WE DO THAT, WE HAVE TO HAVE A RATE CASE EVERY SIX YEARS.

SO WE'RE ON A PATTERN OF HAVING A RATE CASE EVERY FIVE OR SIX YEARS.

I MEAN, YOU COULD HAVE OPPORTUNITY, YOU COULD DO THIS IN ADVANCE OF A RAPE CASE.

AND HONESTLY, I DON'T KNOW WHEN THE NEXT ONE WILL BE.

I MEAN, IT COULD BE NEXT YEAR OR THE YEAR AFTER.

I, I DON'T KNOW.

UM, AND THAT PROBABLY WOULDN'T BE A BAD IDEA, IS TO DO IT BEFORE WE ACTUALLY FILE AND, AND YOU KNOW, MAYBE, YOU KNOW, MAYBE THAT'S A STRATEGY TO GET SOME THINGS, YOU KNOW, TO LE LEARN AND TO GET, YOU KNOW, MAKE SOME RECOMMENDATIONS AT THAT TIME THAT ARE THEN THE CITY AND THEIR COUNCIL CAN USE DURING A RATE CASE.

I THINK, I THINK THE, OUR DIRECTOR OF RATES IS REALLY CONCERNED ABOUT HAVING TO DO THIS SIMULTANEOUSLY DURING A A RATE CASE.

AND ESPECIALLY BECAUSE FROM OUR POINT OF VIEW, YOU KNOW, WE'RE DEALING WITH THE CITY AND THE RAILROAD AND THE RESOURCE MANAGEMENT COMMISSION IS AN ARM OF THE CITY.

YOU GUYS AREN'T REGULATORY, BUT YOU'RE APPOINTED BY THE COUNCIL.

YOU'RE KIND OF A LITTLE BIT OF A GRAY AREA, YOU KNOW, YOU ADVISE THE COUNCIL POLICY ADVICE AND, AND SO, YOU KNOW, IT'S NOT THAT WE DON'T WANT TO COOPERATE, BUT WHEN THERE'S A RAY CASE, YOU KNOW, OUR ATTENTION IS, YOU KNOW, AND THE STAFF ARE DIRECTED THERE.

AND AT THE RAILROAD COMMISSION, IT'S A PRETTY INTENSIVE PROCESS.

SO, I MEAN, MAYBE BEFORE A RATE CASE WOULD BE A, A TIME FOR YOU GUYS TO, TO DO SOME OF THIS.

COMMISSIONER ROBBINS, UH, BEFORE I SAY ANOTHER WORD, UH, SOMEBODY REMIND ME WHEN I QUIT SPEAKING TO TURN THIS RED BUTTON OFF.

I'VE BEEN CHASTISED SEVERAL TIMES TONIGHT AND, UH, SINCE THIS IS, I'M, I'M CO-SPONSOR OF THIS, I KEEP RESPONDING AND KEEP FORGETTING TO TURN THIS OFF, UH, REGARDING, UH, UM, COMMISSIONER BRIN'S QUESTION, UH, WHAT COULD WE DO AS WELL, OR INSTEAD OF A RATE CASE, ONE KEY ISSUE, I'LL REMIND YOU AS THE FRANCHISE, THE 20 YEAR LICENSE AGREEMENT, UH, IS UP IN 2026.

AND IT WOULDN'T SURPRISE ME IF NEGOTIATIONS BEGAN THIS YEAR, UM, REGARDING, UM, THE SUGGESTION THAT WE, UH, START BEFORE A RATE CASE IS FILED AND HAVE INPUT, THEN I DON'T MIND DOING THAT AS WELL.

BUT EVEN SO, WE WOULD NEED TO HAVE OUR PURVIEW EXPANDED TO DO THAT.

AND I DO NOT UNDERSTAND THE CONCERNS ABOUT THE, UM, PRESUMED CONFLICTS OF A SIMULTANEOUS, UH, UH, INTERFACE BETWEEN, UH, THIS COMMISSION AND THE CITY COUNCIL AND THE RAILROAD COMMISSION CETERA.

UM, THE RATE CASE THAT AUSTIN ENERGY HELD LAST YEAR WAS VERY, UH, INVOLVED AND THE ELECTRIC UTILITY COMMISSION PLAYED A PROMINENT ROLE IN IT, AND EVERYBODY, UH, GOT THROUGH IT.

SO I, I DO NOT SEE THIS AS A, A PROBLEM.

PAUL, PAUL, IT, IT'S DIFFERENT BECAUSE THE CITY COUNCIL APPROVED THE RATES AND NEXT TIME WE HAVE A RATE CASE, IT'S GONNA BE THE RAILROAD COMMISSION THAT APPROVES IT ALONG AND WE'RE

[00:45:01]

THE CITY OF AUSTIN WILL NOT BE THE ONLY PARTY.

AND YOU ARE RIGHT, THE FRANCHISE EXPIRES IN 2026, BUT NO NEGOTIATIONS HAVE BEGUN.

A ACTUALLY, UH, LARRY, THE, UM, CITY OF AUSTIN IS THE PRIMARY REGULATOR FOR IN CITY CUSTOMERS, BUT OUTTA CITY CUSTOMERS DO HAVE THE RIGHT TO APPEAL TO THE PUBLIC UTILITY COMMISSION.

AND THEY HAVE DONE THIS, UH, SEVERAL TIMES IN THE PAST.

SO YOU'RE KIND OF RIGHT, BUT NOT ALL THE WAY.

RIGHT.

MR. CHAIRMAN, CAN THE RECORD REFLECT THAT? HE SAID I WAS ALMOST RIGHT, KENNY, SO NOTED.

UH, LARRY, I DO HAVE ANOTHER QUESTION FOR YOU.

AND THAT IS, YOU MENTIONED THAT IT'S NOT JUST THE CITY OF AUSTIN.

THERE ARE MULTIPLE CITIES INVOLVED, UM, IN TERMS OF THIS, THIS, THIS COVERAGE AREA THAT YOU WOULD BE ISSUING A, YOU WOULD BE DOING A RATE CASE FOR.

HOW MANY TOTAL CUSTOMERS, GIVE OR TAKE ARE THERE IN THIS SERVICE AREA? AND THEN WHAT IS AUSTIN'S PERCENTAGE OF IT? YEAH, AUSTIN.

SO THE CURRENT SERVICE AREA INCLUDES, UH, SOUTH JEFFERSON COUNTY, WHICH IS PORT ARTHUR AND THREE OTHER CITIES THERE.

IT INCLUDES GALVESTON AND TWO SMALL CITIES THERE.

IT INCLUDES SOME CITIES, SMALL TOWN SOUTH OF HERE, LOCKHART, LULING, CURO, GONZALEZ, SHINER, NIXON, YOAKUM, AND THEN SOME, SOME SUBURBAN CITIES IN TRAVIS COUNTY.

SO WESTLAKE, SUNSET VALLEY, ROLLINGWOOD.

SO AUSTIN, FAR AND AWAY, I THINK IT'S TWO THIRDS OF THE CUSTOMERS AND NOT ALL THE CITY, THE CITIES IN THE GULF COAST WILL HIRE AN ATTORNEY TO REPRESENT THEM.

THE, UH, PORT ARTHUR AND THE CITIES IN JEFFERSON COUNTY.

SOMETIMES GALVESTON DOES.

THE SMALLER CITIES GENERALLY DON'T.

THEY KIND OF GO ALONG FOR THE RIDE, UM, AND ARE GENERALLY REPRESENTED BY THE ATTORNEY REPRESENTING THE CITY.

THEY, THEY DON'T, HONESTLY, THEY DON'T, YOU KNOW, THOSE CITIES OF 5,000 PEOPLE DON'T GENERALLY GET INVOLVED.

THEY HAVE THE LEGAL RIGHT TO, BUT THEY DON'T.

THANK YOU.

ANY OTHER QUESTIONS OR COMMENTS? I HAVE ONE MORE.

COMMISSIONER, SCAFF.

UM, THIS IS NOT NECESSARILY FOR LARRY, BUT JUST, UM, FOR, I GUESS, UH, PAUL, IF WE'RE THINKING ABOUT, YOU KNOW, THAT IT'S NOT GONNA BE DONE AT THIS MEETING AND IT'S GONNA COME BACK, I JUST, I'M LOOKING AT THE, UM, SO LEMME START AGAIN.

I LIKE THE IDEA OF INCLUDING PROBABLY BY ATTACHMENT, THE CHANGES THAT WOULD HAVE TO BE MADE TO THE CITY CODE IN ORDER FOR THIS, UM, TO HAPPEN.

I, I, I THINK IT'S GONNA BE TOO CLUNKY PROBABLY TO INCORPORATE IN, IN THE REFERENCES.

I THINK YOU COULD PROBABLY JUST SAY, YOU KNOW, SOMETHING GENERAL ABOUT, UM, YOU KNOW, WE, WE RECOMMEND THE CHANGES ATTACHED TO THIS RESOLUTION AND THEN ATTACH THE CHANGE DOCUMENT THAT YOU HAD SUBMITTED IN JANUARY.

ONE THING I JUST WOULD LIKE TO OPEN UP, UM, BECAUSE I THINK THE HOPE WOULD BE THAT IF YOU BRING THIS BACK IN JULY, IT'S NOT LIKE, CONTINUING TO REITERATE ON THIS, UM, IS I'M NOT SURE IF LIKE, THERE'S SEVERAL TIMES IN THIS CITY CODE WHERE, YOU KNOW, WE'RE ADDING THE WORD NATURAL GAS OR TAKING IT OUT OF THE EXCLUSIONS LIST.

THAT ALL MAKES SENSE, BUT THEN THERE'S A FEW TIMES WHERE WE REALLY EXPAND WHAT WE MEAN BY OUR PURVIEW, YOU KNOW, ISSUES RELATING TO NATURAL GAS UTILITIES, INCLUDING FAIR EQUITABLE RATES AND ENERGY EFFICIENCY.

AND IT, IT GOES ON AND ON.

I DON'T KNOW, UM, IF THAT'S LIKE TOO MUCH INFORMATION FOR THEM, I'M KIND OF WONDERING IF WE JUST KEEP IT SIMPLE.

UM, AND I'M NOT AS, I'M NOT EXACTLY ESPOUSING A VIEW ON THIS.

I JUST THINK MAYBE WE SHOULD CHAT ABOUT IT SO THAT WE'RE NOT WAITING TO HAVE THAT CONVERSATION IN JULY AND THEN WE'RE FURTHER PUSHING IT DOWN.

UM, SO I WANTED TO RAISE THAT.

UM, UNFORTUNATELY GIVEN, UH, QUORUM RULES, UH, AND THE PEOPLE I'VE ALREADY TALKED TO, UH, OFFICIALLY, I THINK THE ONLY WAY THAT YOU AND I CAN TALK ABOUT THIS IS, UH, HERE AND NOW AT LEAST BEFORE JULY, UH, AND I, I, I HAVE, UH, WRITTEN DOWN THAT YOUR SUGGESTION AND SEVERAL OTHER PEOPLE'S SUGGESTIONS THAT WE HAVE AN ATTACHMENT WITH CITY CODE REVISION LANGUAGE, AND, UH, I'LL MAKE SURE THAT THAT'S

[00:50:01]

CAN I HOLD YOU FOR ONE SECOND? PAUL? UH, NATASHA, HE'S ALLOWED TO COMMUNICATE ONE-ON-ONE WITH ANOTHER COMMISSION MEMBER, RIGHT? HE JUST CAN'T TALK TO WHATEVER, FOUR OR FIVE PEOPLE AT A TIME.

THAT'S CORRECT, RIGHT? YES, THAT'S CORRECT.

SO FOR EXAMPLE, IF HE WANTED TO SPEAK JUST TO YOU, HE COULD, AS LONG AS IT'S NOT A GROUP OF, UH, FIVE OR MORE, IT HAS TO BE BELOW FIVE.

UM, SO IT DOES NOT, UH, CONSULT, UH, A WALKIN COURTROOM.

WELL, THAT'S IN THE EYE OF THE BEHOLDER.

UH, AND SOMEBODY, UH, WHO I DON'T WANT TO GET INTO MY OPINION, UH, I FEEL LEGALLY VULNERABLE TALKING ABOUT THIS ISSUE, UH, TO FIVE SWORN IN COMMISSIONERS, UH, EXCUSE ME, MORE THAN FIVE SWORN IN COMMISSIONERS AFTER, UH, THEY'VE BEEN, THEY'VE BEEN LET IN THIS CIRCLE.

UH, AND, UM, IF, IF I HAVE THESE FIVE AND THEN I, UM, I, I MEAN, THEN I TALK TO CHELSEA, THAT WOULD BE SIX.

UH, EVEN IF IT'S INFORMAL, MORE SO IF YOU ARE JUST TALKING TO ONE COMMISSIONER AT A TIME, THAT'S FINE.

IT'S, IF IT'S A GROUP, YOU CAN'T SPEAK IN A GROUP.

SO, LIKE FOR EXAMPLE, WHEN YOU DO THE WORKING GROUP, THAT'S WHY YOU CAN'T HAVE FIVE OR MORE.

AMY EBERHART, YOU'VE WORKED FOR HOW MANY CITY COUNCIL MEMBERS? I I DO THINK YOU CANNOT TALK TO BOARD THAN QUORUM.

A SUB QUORUM, UH, ON THE SAME SUBJECT.

YES.

PERIOD.

BUT IF THEY MET AS A, AS A GROUP OF FIVE AND THEN YOU TALKED TO A SIX, THEN YOU WOULD KNOW HOW.

SO YOU CANNOT, I THINK YOU CANNOT, CAN I ASK, UH, FOR A MICROPHONE, PLEASE? YEAH.

I THINK HE CANNOT TALK TO MORE THAN FIVE ON THE SAME SUBJECT PERIOD, RIGHT? IS THAT WHAT YOU'RE SAYING? THAT'S MY UNDERSTANDING.

I MEAN, IF THERE WERE FEWER THAN FIVE IN THE WORKING GROUP, IF THERE WERE FOUR, THEN HE COULD TALK TO ONE MORE PERSON.

AND, AND I'M NOT SHYING FROM YOUR COMPANY, CHELSEA , UH, IT'S, IT'S JUST THAT ON THIS ISSUE, I DON'T THINK, UH, I CAN TALK TO YOU OFFLINE.

AND SO NO, AND I'M NOT ASKING YOU FOR YOU TO TALK TO ME OFFLINE, JUST TO BE CLEAR, I JUST WANTED TO ESSENTIALLY GIVE YOU THE INFORMATION SO THAT WHEN YOU COME BACK IN JULY, YOU DON'T FEEL LIKE WE'RE REDISCUSSING THIS IN JULY.

SO I WAS JUST SAYING, YES, I AGREE WITH OTHER COUNCIL MEMBERS.

I LIKE THE SHORTER RESOLUTION.

I LIKE THE IDEA OF ATTACHING, ATTACHING THE CHANGES THAT YOU HAD HAD SUBMITTED IN JANUARY, UM, ON THAT TWO DASH ONE DASH 1 68 OF THE CODE.

MY ONLY COMMENT WAS, IS WHEN I WAS LOOKING AT THOSE CHANGES THAT YOU HAD SUGGESTED TO THE CODE, THERE WERE A FEW THAT WERE LIKE VERY STRAIGHTFORWARD, LIKE ADDING THE WORDS NATURAL GAS, TAKING THE WORDS NATURAL GAS OUT OF THE EXCLUSION LIST.

AND THEN THERE WERE A FEW, UM, IT WAS LIKE LINE ITEM FIVE A FIVE WHERE YOU REALLY EXPANDED ON, YOU KNOW, ADDING THIS LONGER LANGUAGE TO CITY CODE.

AND I WAS JUST SAYING AS A GENERAL COMMENT, MAYBE IF WE'RE ASKING THE CITY COUNCIL TO EXPAND OUR PURVIEW, MAYBE WE KEEP THE REVISIONS TO CITY CODE THAT WE'RE REQUESTING TO BE PRETTY SIMPLE AS WELL.

AND I DON'T MIND DOING THAT.

MAY I MAKE A SUGGESTION THAT I THINK IS QUASI LEGAL? UH, AND THAT IS THAT YOU CAN, UH, LOOK AT THIS JANUARY REVISION AND MARK IT UP AND SEND IT TO MS. GOODWIN AND MS. GOODWIN AS THE INTERMEDIATOR CAN SEND IT TO ALL OF US.

AND THAT SHOULD SOLVE THE OPEN MEETINGS PROBLEM, AS I UNDERSTAND IT.

YES, THAT'S CORRECT.

SHE CAN SUBMIT TO ME AND THEN I CAN SUBMIT TO THE WHOLE COMMISSION.

UH, D DOES

[00:55:01]

I JUST ALSO WANNA HEAR FROM OTHER COMMISSIONERS WHETHER OR NOT THEY AGREE WITH THAT SENTIMENT OR ARE YOU SAYING YOU WOULD RATHER DO THAT ALL OVER EMAIL? I'M HAPPY TO LIKE TAKE A STAB AT IT.

I JUST, I GUESS I'M JUST MAKING A GENERAL COMMENT AND I JUST WANNA KNOW, AM I, UM, ON MY OWN ON THAT THINKING? DO OTHER PEOPLE THINK THAT THE EXPOUNDED LANGUAGE IS ACTUALLY HELPFUL FOR COMMISSION OR FOR COUNCIL TO SEE WHAT WE MEAN WHEN WE SAY EXPANDED PURVIEW? PARTICULARLY SINCE OUR SOUNDS LIKE MAYBE THE RESOLUTION WE'RE GONNA GO WITH IS A LITTLE BIT SHORTER.

SO DO FOLKS FEEL LIKE WE ACTUALLY NEED TO HAVE MORE LANGUAGE IN THE AMENDMENT TO CITY CODE? THAT WAS THE QUESTION THAT I WAS PUTTING UP IN FRONT OF THE COMMISSION TO BE DISCUSSED NOW, AND THEN I'M HAPPY TO, BASED ON WHAT WE TALK ABOUT, I'M HAPPY TO CIRCULATE SOMETHING IN WRITING, SO I'LL JUMP IN.

COMMISSIONER GARY.

THANK YOU.

SORRY ABOUT THAT.

CHEERS.

DOWN.

SO BASICALLY I WOULD AGREE, I THINK IF YOU BRING IT BACK WITH THE CODE, ATTACH AS A FINAL DRAFT, YOU KNOW, I, I THINK HE MADE THE RECOMMENDATION OR A SUGGESTION THAT, UM, YOU COMMISSIONER GO THROUGH IT AND, AND DO EDITS AND BRING IT BACK AND THEN WE PRESENT IT AS A WHOLE.

I THINK THAT WOULD PROBABLY BE BEST.

THAT'S JUST MY OPINION.

COMMISSIONER BRE, CHELSEA, UM, I'M LOOKING AT THE, THE PACKET.

SO ARE YOU SUGGEST SUGGESTING THAT WE TAKE OUT FIVE AND SIX? YEAH.

YEAH, I THINK I'M SUPPORTIVE OF THAT AS WELL.