[00:00:01]
IS THE ELECTRIC UTILITY COMMISSION FOR JANUARY 22ND, 2024.SO THE FIRST THING ON THE AGENDA IS CALLING THE MEETING TO ORDER, BUT PUBLIC COMMUNICATION.
ROBIN, WE HAVE NO SPEAKERS TONIGHT.
UM, UNFORTUNATELY WE'RE LOSING KAY.
COMMISSIONER TROS FROM THE EUC.
I'D JUST LIKE TO THANK HER FOR HER SERVICE AND HER CONTRIBUTIONS TO THE COMMUNITY AND THE EUC AND WISH YOU THE BEST OF LUCK.
IT'S BEEN A, IT'S BEEN A REAL PLEASURE TO, UM, WORK WITH THE AE STAFF AND TO GET TO KNOW THE VARIOUS COMMISSIONERS THAT I'VE SERVED WITH.
AND I'M SURE THAT, UM, EVERYTHING WILL GO EXTREMELY WELL WITHOUT ME
[1. Approve the minutes of the Electric Utility Commission Regular meeting on November 13, 2023.]
NEXT IS THE APPROVAL OF THE MINUTES.DO I HAVE ANY MOTION FOR THAT? I'LL MAKE A MOTION TO APPROVE THE MINUTES THAT'S SUBMITTED.
[2. Recommend authorizing negotiation and execution of two contracts for tree growth regulator services with Edko LLC and T&S Growth Solutions, LLC, each for up to three years for total contract amounts not to exceed $5,000,000, divided between the contractors. ]
ITEMS. WE HAVE TWO, THREE, AND FOUR.I WANT TO PULL, I'VE GOT SOME QUESTIONS ABOUT THREE.
ANYONE ELSE? UM, I HAD A QUICK QUESTION ABOUT TWO.
I APPRECIATE THE INFORMATION THAT WAS PROVIDED.
THE SECOND ONE, OR NUMBER TWO? NUMBER TWO.
ANY OTHER ONES BESIDES TWO AND THREE? OKAY.
[4. Approve the creation of a Budget & Audit working group to provide recommendations on the FY 24/25 Austin Energy budget to the Commission. (Sponsors: Chapman, Trostle)]
LET'S, UH, SEE IF WE HAVE A VOTE ON NUMBER FIVE, WHICH IS APPROVAL OF CREATION OF A BUDGET.WELL, THAT'S AN INTERESTING THING, RANDY HERE.
UM, IF I COULD, WE REQUESTED THIS BE PUT ON THE AGENDA LAST, UM, LAST MEETING, WHICH WAS IN NOVEMBER.
UH, BECAUSE, UH, I BELIEVE IT'S CORRECT THAT WORKING GROUPS CAN HAVE A TERM OF ONE YEAR UNLESS THEY'RE RENEWED.
THAT'S, THAT'S WHAT IT'S ABOUT.
SO WHAT ACTION DO WE TAKE ON THIS? APPROVE THE CREATION OF THE BUDGET AND AUDIT WORKING GROUP.
DO, DO WE THEN NAME MEMBERS AT A LATER TIME? MAYBE NEXT MONTH OR SOMETHING WHEN WE RIGHT.
OR NOW THAT YOU'RE APPROVED, YOU CAN START MEETING ANY TIME.
YOU JUST HAVE TO MAKE SURE THERE'S NOT A QUORUM PRESENT.
I THINK WE CAN WAIT TILL NEXT TIME AND SEE WHO'S INTERESTED.
'CAUSE WE DON'T HAVE EVERYBODY HERE.
WELL, OTHER THAN BUDGET RECOMMENDATIONS ARE COMING DUE, SO, I MEAN, IT DOESN'T MATTER IF WE CAN MEET OUTSIDE OF THE WORK HERE, BUT JUST FYI.
GETTING BACK TO NUMBER TWO, RECOMMENDED AUTHORIZATION NEGOTIATIONS, TREE GROWTH.
CYRUS, YOU HAD QUESTIONS? YEAH.
FIRST, I, I, I DO WANNA THANK, YEAH, I DO WANNA THANK STAFF FOR PUTTING TOGETHER THAT INFORMATION THAT WAS VERY USEFUL.
UM, AND FROM MY REVIEW OF THESE, OF THE THREE CHEMICAL OR THE THREE PRODUCTS YOU'RE USING AND THE TYPES OF CHEMICALS THEY HAVE, IT DOES, UM, WELL, IT DOESN'T, IT DOESN'T MEAN SOMETHING BAD COULDN'T HAPPEN IN GENERAL.
THEY SEEM SAFE AND TO HAVE PRETTY SHORT, UM, TOXICITY LIVES.
SO I GUESS MY TWO QUESTIONS WOULD BE, HOW DO WE MAKE SURE THOSE APPLYING THE PRODUCT ACTUALLY APPLY IT CORRECTLY SO THAT THERE AREN'T PROBLEMS WITH RUNOFF OR THEY DON'T GO DEEP ENOUGH? SO THAT'S QUESTION NUMBER ONE.
QUESTION NUMBER TWO IS, HOW DO WE INFORM PEOPLE WHO ARE GETTING, UH, HOW DO WE INFORM THE, THE PUBLIC THAT MAY DECIDE, YOU KNOW WHAT, I DON'T WANT THAT REGULATOR ON MY PROPERTY.
WHAT, WHAT DO WE DO TO TO, TO ASSURE THAT? SO IF SOMEBODY WANTS TO OPT OUT, THEY CAN.
UH, ELTON RICHARD, VICE PRESIDENT FIELD OPERATIONS.
BEFORE I GET INTO THAT, UH, I WOULD LIKE TO CONCUR WITH WHAT DAVE SAID, AND I'VE ALREADY THANKED KAY PRIVATELY, BUT I'D LIKE TO DO IT PUBLICLY.
IT'S BEEN A PLEASURE WORKING WITH HER AND SHE'LL DEFINITELY BE MISSED ON IT.
SO, GODSPEED, UH, FIRST ANSWER ON IT.
AS FAR AS THE PEOPLE THAT ARE TRAINED, EACH CONTRACTOR HAS TO GO THROUGH A CERTIFICATION TO SAY THAT THEY ARE CERTIFIED, ARE QUALIFIED WITHIN THE SYSTEM.
ON UNISON IT, THE CHEMICALS ARE A LITTLE BIT DIFFERENT FROM THE TREMORS BECAUSE OF THE KNOWLEDGE ON THE DEPTH OF IT AND THE PROBE.
[00:05:01]
HAVE CONTRACTOR COORDINATORS, WHICH WORK FOR ME, WHICH GO OUT AND AUDIT THE CONTRACTORS TO MAKE SURE THAT THEY'RE USING IT CORRECTLY.SO THAT'S ALSO HOW WE MAKE SURE THAT THE TRIM IS GOING CORRECTLY.
AS FAR AS THE INDIVIDUALS THAT ARE BEING COULD EITHER ACCEPT OR NOT, IT'S THE SAME PROCESS WHEN WE NOTIFY 'EM.
SO WHEN WE DO THE PLANNING FOR, LET'S SAY CIRCUIT 1, 2, 3, 4, AND CYRUS AND CESAR'S HOUSE IS ON THERE, WE KNOCK ON THE DOOR TO TRY TO MAKE CONTACT NOT THERE.
WE'LL LEAVE A DOOR HANGER SAYING IT'S GONNA BE TRIMMED IN THE POSSIBLE USE OF CHEMICALS, AND THEN IT GOES THROUGH THE PROCESS.
YOU CAN CALL BACK UP, SAY, WHAT'S GONNA HAPPEN IN MY YARD? WE CAN WALK YOU THROUGH IT.
WE'LL COME OUT AND, AND WALK YOU THROUGH IT IF WE NEED TO.
SO THAT'S HOW THEY'D BE NOTIFIED.
AND THEN THEY COULD EITHER CLIENT OR ACCEPT.
AND WILL THE, DOES THE NOTICE SAY WHAT TYPE OF CHEMICALS, LIKE WE'RE USING CANVA STAT? OR DOES IT JUST SAY CHEMICALS IN GENERAL? IT SAY CHEMICAL USE BECAUSE IT COULD BE, IT COULD BE FOUR DIFFERENT CHEMICALS.
IT COULD BE DIVINE GROWTH, WHICH IS TOTALLY SEPARATE FROM THE TREE REGROWTH OR THE THREE CHEMICALS IN THE TREE REGROWTH.
SO IT COULD BE ANY ONE OF THOSE FOUR.
BUT YOU WOULD, YOU DO LEAVE A YES SAYING POSSIBLE CHEMICAL USE WOULD BE APPLIED AND THEN THE INDIVIDUALS WOULD CALL BACK TO EITHER ACCEPT OR DECLINE.
ANY OTHER QUESTIONS ON YES,
UM, SO I SEE THAT IT SAYS THAT THEY'RE NOT USED WHERE PEOPLE HAVE ACCESS ON ONE SLIDE, BUT IT SOUNDS LIKE THEY'RE USED IN PEOPLE'S YARDS.
UNLESS THEY'RE WALKING NINE INCHES UNDER THE SOIL, THEN IT'S NOT WHERE THEY HAVE ACCESS.
SO IT IS NOT ACCESSIBLE WHEN IT'S INJECTED INTO THE SOIL.
AND EVEN ON THE NON INJECTION, IT HAS TO BE TRENCHED.
IT WOULD BE TRENCHED TO THAT DEPTH AND THEN BACKFIELD OVER.
SO IT'D BE CLEAN TOP SOIL ON THE SURFACE.
WELL, I, I'M GUESSING YOU'RE NOT A GARDENER.
UM, DO YOU OR DOES WHOEVER'S DOING THE APPLICATION, DO THEY, LIKE, IS THE AREA DESIGNATED? SO IF SOMEBODY, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE MOVE OR WHATEVER, UM, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE KNOW THAT, LIKE THAT'S NOT AN AREA THAT YOU CAN, YOU KNOW, PLANT SOMETHING.
I REALIZE IT'S NEAR A TREE, BUT SOMETIMES, LIKE, I MEAN, MY NEIGHBOR HAS PLANTINGS RIGHT AROUND HIS, UM, TREES.
SO THAT SEEMS LIKE A WAY THAT SOMEBODY COULD COME IN CONTACT WITH THIS PRODUCT.
THE, THE ONLY TREES THAT ARE BEING TREATED ARE THE ONES IN THE EASEMENT AND RIGHT AWAY.
SO IF IT'S A TREE IN YOUR FRONT YARD, THERE'S NO ELECTRICAL LINES AROUND IT.
THERE'S NOTHING, NOTHING TO WORRY ABOUT.
UM, AND CAN YOU TELL ME HOW LONG THE PRODUCT REMAINS FOR? LIKE, UM, IN TERMS OF IT, YOU SAID, YOU KNOW, UNLESS SOMEBODY DIGS IT UP AND COMES INTO CONTACT.
SO HOW LONG DOES THAT REMAIN A RISK? WELL, IT WOULD, IT WOULD STAY IN THE AREA FOR A THREE YEAR PERIOD WHEN IT'S ABSORBED INTO THE ROOT SYSTEM OF THE TREE.
SO IT WOULDN'T BE IN THE SOIL ANYMORE, BUT IT WOULD BE IN THE ROOT SYSTEM OF THE TREE, WHICH WAS REPRESENTED IN THE INFORMATION THAT'S PROVIDED TO SHOW THE TREATED VERSUS UNTREATED ROOT SYSTEM.
AND I, UH, I JUST, I SEE THAT IT SAYS THERE'S NO KNOWN, UM, JUST TRYING TO GO BACK TO THAT SECTION.
I'M TRYING TO GET TO THE LANGUAGE, UH, EFFECTS ON, WELL, I JUST, THERE WAS EFFECTS ON POLLINATORS.
UM, NO KNOWN NEGATIVE IMPACTS ON POLLINATORS.
DO YOU KNOW IF THAT'S BEEN TESTED OR IS THIS JUST ONE OF THE MANY CHEMICALS THAT HAS NOT BEEN TESTED YET? IT'S, IT'S A SUBSURFACE.
SO IT WOULDN'T BE IN A POLLINATOR BECAUSE IT'S AGAIN, SIX TO NINE INCHES BELOW THE SOIL.
WELL, DOESN'T IT GO, I MEAN IT OBVIOUSLY TRANSFERS UP THROUGH THE WHOLE POINT IS THAT IT GOES UP INTO THE, INTO THE TREE, RIGHT? YEAH.
BUT ALSO IN THERE, THERE WAS AN ARTICLE THAT SHOWED THE DIFFERENCE OF THE GROWTH OF THE TREE AND THE VITALITY OF THE, THE LEAVES WITH AND WITHOUT.
SO ANY EFFECT IT WOULD HAVE ON THE TREE ITSELF IS POSITIVE.
WELL, RIGHT, BUT THE EFFECT ON THE TREE COULD BE POSITIVE, BUT THE EFFECT ON POLLINATORS COULD BE NEGATIVE.
RIGHT? IT COULD GO THROUGH THE TREE INTO THE FLOWERS AND THE POLLINATORS COULD BE NEGATIVELY AFFECTED.
I MEAN, THIS IS THE CASE WITH, WITH PLENTY OF OTHER AGRICULTURAL PRODUCTS, THE, THE PLANT THAT IT'S APPLIED TO MIGHT GET A POSITIVE IMPACT, BUT THE POLLINATORS DON'T.
SO I'M JUST ASKING IF, YOU KNOW, HAS THAT ACTUALLY BEEN TESTED OR IS THIS JUST AN UNTESTED PRO PRODUCT IN THAT REGARD? IN TERMS OF
[00:10:01]
EFFECT ON POLL, I DID NOT SAY IT'S BEEN TESTED OR NOT TESTED.AND IS THE SAME TRUE FOR, UM, YOU KNOW, KIND OF, I GUESS HUMAN, HUMAN RISK? WELL, NO, THE HUMAN RISK, IT, IT HAS A CAUTION LABEL ON IT, JUST LIKE MANY HOUSEHOLD CONTAINERS DO.
UH, BUT YEAH, THAT, THAT FROM, FROM MY UNDERSTANDING, READING THE SAFETY DATA SHEETS, UNLESS IT'S DIRECT HUMAN CONTACT, WHILE IT'S STILL IN LIQUID FORM, THERE IS NO, THERE IS NO ISSUE.
HOW ABOUT WE VOTE ON THIS? DO I HAVE A MOTION? OH, WE HAVE A MOTION ON THIS.
DO I HAVE A SECOND? THIS IS FOR NUMBER TWO.
UH, KABI, DID YOU VOTE? I'M VOTING AGAINST.
[3. Recommend authorizing execution of two contracts for batteries, battery banks and battery testing services with Direct Current Preventive Maintenance LLC d/b/a DCPM and Exponential Power Inc. each for up to five years for total contract amounts not to exceed $3,500,000 divided between the contractors.]
ON TO NUMBER THREE.THIS IS THE EXECUTION OF CONTRACTS FOR BATTERIES.
UH, ELAINE VASULKA, INTERIM VICE PRESIDENT OF THE SYSTEM ENGINEERING AND TECHNICAL SERVICES.
UM, ARE THESE FOR LEAD ACID BATTERIES FOR LIKE THE DISTRIBUTION SYSTEM AUTOMATION OR SOMETHING? UM, NO, THESE ARE, UM, I THINK TWO VOLT BATTERIES THAT ARE STRUNG TOGETHER, UM, TO CREATE A BATTERY BANK AND THEY'RE AT EACH OF OUR SUBSTATIONS.
AND SO IT'S WHAT, UM, THE PROTECTION AND CONTROL RELAY DEVICES.
UM, IT SERVES AS A, AN, UH, UNINTERRUPTIBLE POWER SOURCE FOR THOSE.
ARE THEY LEAD ACID? I AM NOT SURE OF THAT.
SO THE QUESTION WOULD BE, IS THERE AN UPGRADE PATHWAY TO GET AWAY FROM LEAD ACID, NEWER FORMULATIONS OF LITHIUM ION THAT MIGHT HAVE LONGER LIVES, LOWER COST, LOWER TOXICITY? I KNOW THAT THEY MAY BE RECYCLED IF THEY'RE LEAD ACID.
BUT IF WE COULD GET SOME KIND OF FOLLOW UP ON THAT, I CAN GET SOME INFORMATION.
'CAUSE THERE ARE NEW TECHNOLOGIES LIKE LITHIUM, IRON PHOSPHATE THAT DIDN'T GIVE GOOD SERVICE LIFE.
UH, ANY OTHER BATTERY QUESTIONS? OKAY.
SO I, I MAKE A MOTION TO PASS THIS.
OKAY, ROBIN, WE HAVE SIX ON THAT.
[5. Presentation by Abbe Ramanan, Clean Energy Group, regarding green hydrogen.]
ARE AT THE DISCUSSION ITEMS NUMBER FIVE, PRESENTATION BY ABBY RAHMAN.HELLO? CAN YOU HEAR ME? OH, YES.
UM, AND SHOULD I, CAN I SHARE MY SLIDES OR, UM, IT, IT'S UP TO YOU.
WE CAN PUT THEM ON SCREEN OR IF YOU WANNA SHARE THEM.
UM, YEAH, IF YOU WANNA JUST PUT THEM ON SCREEN, THAT SHOULD BE FINE.
I'M ALSO, I'M, I'M ABLE, I HAVE THEM PULLED UP IF THAT'D BE EASIER.
[00:15:34]
ABBY, WOULD YOU MIND SHARING YOUR SCREEN? YEAH, I CAN DO THAT.CAN Y'ALL SEE THOSE? GREAT? YES, WE CAN.
I'M A PROJECT DIRECTOR WITH CLEAN ENERGY GROUP, AND I'M HERE TODAY TO CHAT ABOUT GREEN HYDROGEN, UM, BOTH GENERALLY AND THEN HOW IT MIGHT PERTAIN TO AUSTIN'S, UM, RESOURCE GENERATION PLAN UPDATE, AND ALSO DECARBONIZATION PLAN OVERALL.
UM, SO A LITTLE BIT OF BACKGROUND BEFORE, UM, I DIVE INTO THE TECHNICAL SIDE OF THINGS.
CLEAN ENERGY GROUP IS A NATIONAL NONPROFIT.
UM, ALTHOUGH BOTH OUR STAFF ARE BASED IN THE NORTHEAST, I'M BASED IN MAINE, WHICH IS WHY IT'S SO DARK IN MY OFFICE RIGHT NOW.
UM, BUT WE WORK TO ADVANCE A JUST CLEAN ENERGY TRANSITION THAT BRINGS RELIABLE, AFFORDABLE, CLEAN ENERGY FOR EVERYONE.
I'M THE PROJECT DIRECTOR OF OUR HYDROGEN INFORMATION AND PUBLIC EDUCATION PROJECT.
UH, THIS AIMS TO PROVIDE STAKEHOLDERS SUCH AS YOURSELVES, AS WELL AS, UM, COMMUNITY GROUPS AND OTHER ADVOCATES WITH, UM, UNBIASED EACH EASILY DIGESTIBLE INFORMATION ON HYDROGEN SO THEY CAN CRITICALLY ASSESS AND RESPONSIBLY ADDRESS HYDROGEN PROPOSALS.
SO WITH THAT, UM, A LITTLE BIT OF TABLE SETTING BEFORE WE GET INTO THINGS.
UM, I LIKE TO START KIND OF ANY CONVERSATION ABOUT HYDROGEN WITH, UM, SOME CONTEXT FOR, UH, WHAT TYPE OF HYDROGEN WE'RE TALKING ABOUT.
UM, THIS IS THE, THE INFAMOUS HYDROGEN RAINBOW YOU ALL MIGHT BE SOMEWHAT FAMILIAR WITH.
THERE'S A LOT OF DIFFERENT COLORS, UM, THAT GET TALKED ABOUT WHEN IT COMES TO HYDROGEN, BUT THE ONLY ONES THAT I'M REALLY GONNA TOUCH ON TODAY ARE GRAY, HYDROGEN BLUE HYDROGEN AND GREEN HYDROGEN.
SO GRAY HYDROGEN IS, UH, ABOUT 95% OF HYDROGEN MADE TODAY IS GRAY HYDROGEN.
IT'S HOW WE'VE TRADITIONALLY PRODUCED IT, UM, THROUGH A PROCESS CALLED STEAM METHANE REFORMATION, UM, THAT USES NATURAL, UH, NATURAL GAS.
AND THIS IS, UH, HIGHLY CARBON INTENSIVE BLUE HYDROGEN, UM, IS HYDROGEN PRODUCED THROUGH THAT EXACT SAME PROCESS, STEAM METHANE REFORMATION, UM, BUT WITH CARBON CAPTURE TECHNOLOGY DEPLOYED DURING THE PROCESS TO CAPTURE SOME OF THOSE CARBON EMISSIONS.
IT IS STILL SOMEWHAT CARBON INTENSIVE, UM, BUT IT IS THE, THAT CARBON, THE CAPTURE TECHNOLOGY CAN MITIGATE SOME OF THOSE EMISSIONS.
GREEN HYDROGEN, UM, IS HYDROGEN PRODUCED THROUGH A DIFFERENT PROCESS, WHAT'S CALLED ELECTROLYSIS.
UH, THIS IS WHEN AN ELECTRIC CURRENT IS RUN THROUGH WATER TO SEPARATE OUT THE MOLECULES.
IF THAT, UH, ELECTROLYZER IS POWERED BY RENEWABLE ENERGY, THEN THAT HYDROGEN IS CONSIDERED GREEN.
SO THOSE ARE KIND OF THE THREE MAIN COLORS I'M GONNA TALK ABOUT TODAY.
UM, I KNOW ALL OF YOU ARE SPECIFICALLY LOOKING AT GREEN HYDROGEN, UM, BUT I DO THINK IT'S IMPORTANT TO DEFINE IT, UH, BECAUSE PARTICULARLY, UM, WITH SORT OF THE FEDERAL INCENTIVES THAT ARE GOING ON NOW AND, AND JUST THE GENERAL CONVERSATION ON HYDROGEN THERE.
UM, GREEN HYDROGEN AND BLUE HYDROGEN IN PARTICULAR TEND TO GET CONFLATED UNDER THE UMBRELLA OF CLEAN HYDROGEN.
SO IT IS REALLY IMPORTANT TO JUST SPECIFY, UM, WHEN YOU'RE KIND OF SOURCING GREEN HYDROGEN, THAT IT IS TRULY GREEN.
THIS HAS BECOME EVEN MORE IMPORTANT NOW BECAUSE, UM, AS SOME OF YOU MIGHT BE AWARE, THE TREASURY RECENTLY RELEASED SOME DRAFT GUIDANCE FOR THE 45 V CLEAN PRODUCTION TAX CREDIT.
SO THIS IS A TIERED INCENTIVE, UM, THAT WAS, UH, INTRODUCED THROUGH THE INFLATION REDUCTION ACT.
UH, THAT INCENTIVIZES, UM, SETTLE CHECK, UH, BOTH CARBON INTENSIVE AND CARBON FREE HYDROGEN.
BUT THE TIER IS, UH, PROVIDES $3 PER KILOGRAM FOR ZERO CARBON HYDROGEN.
THAT'S THE HIGHEST TIER, UM, THAT CAN RECEIVE THAT PRODUCTION TAX CREDIT.
UM, AND NOW THIS TAX CREDIT HAS A FEW ADDITIONAL REQUIREMENTS IN PLACE, UH, FOR HYDROGEN TO BE CONSIDERED TRULY CARBON FREE.
UM, SO THAT IS TEMPORAL MATCHING ADDITIONALITY AND LOCALIZED PRODUCTION.
WHAT DO ALL THOSE WORDS MEAN? BASICALLY, UH, IF YOU'RE, YOU KNOW, RUNNING AN ELECTROLYZER TO PRODUCE HYDROGEN, UH, FOR EVERY HOUR THAT THAT ELECTROLYZER IS ON AND PRODUCING HYDROGEN THAT NEEDS TO BE MATCHED, UH, BY HOURLY PRODUCTION OF RENEWABLE ENERGY, THAT IS NEW RENEWABLE ENERGY.
SO IT IS, UH, RENEWABLE ASSETS THAT CAME ONLINE WITHIN THREE YEARS OF THAT HYDROGEN PRODUCTION FACILITY.
UH, AND IT'S LOCAL RENEWABLE ENERGY, SO IT IS WITHIN THE SAME REGION OR THE SAME ENERGY MARKET AS THE HYDROGEN PRODUCTION FACILITY.
SO ALL THREE OF THOSE REQUIREMENTS NEED TO BE MET IN ORDER FOR ANY HYDROGEN THAT'S
[00:20:01]
CLAIMING TO BE GREEN, HYDROGEN TO BE CONSIDERED ZERO CARBON IF IT WANTS TO BE ELIGIBLE FOR THAT 45 B HYDROGEN PRODUCTION TAX CREDIT.AND SO, SORRY, QUICK, WHY I, YOU KNOW, CAN I ASK A QUICK QUESTION, ABBY? YEAH, ABSOLUTELY.
UM, CAN YOU GIVE US A SENSE OF THE TIMELINE ON THOSE RULES AROUND, OR THE GUIDANCE BY THE TREASURY? YEAH.
IS THIS SOMETHING THAT'S GONNA BE FINALIZED NEXT MONTH? IS IT, DO, DO YOU KNOW WHAT THE TIMELINE IS? YEAH, THAT'S A GREAT QUESTION.
UM, YEAH, SO THIS IS DRAFT GUIDANCE.
SO IT IS POSSIBLE THAT SOME OF THESE REQUIREMENTS MIGHT BE, UM, ALTERED IN SOME WAY.
UH, TREASURY IS ACCEPTING COMMENTS ON THE DRAFT GUIDANCE THROUGH THE END OF FEBRUARY.
AND THEN, UM, THERE ISN'T A REALLY CLEAR TIMELINE ON WHEN THE FINAL GUIDANCE WILL COME OUT.
MY GUESS IS LIKELY SOMETIME IN THE SUMMER, BUT, UM, THERE ARE ALSO ADDITIONAL, UM, LIKE THE 45 Q AND OTHER PRODUCTION TAX CREDITS THAT ARE, UM, THEY'RE ALSO WORKING ON.
AND SO THEY TEND TO CYCLE WHEN, UH, THE DRAFT GUIDANCE IS GETTING RELEASED, UH, WITH THE FINAL.
BUT, UM, MY GUESS IS LIKELY SOMETIME IN THE SUMMER, UH, IS WHEN WE'RE GONNA SEE THAT THAT FINAL GUIDANCE COME OUT.
UM, THE LOCALIZED PRODUCTION REQUIREMENT.
WHAT, HOW DO THEY DEFINE THE SAME REGION? YOU ALSO SAID IT WOULD BE THE SAME ENERGY MARKET, SO IN TEXAS, WOULD THAT BE ERCOT? YES.
UM, I'M DON'T KNOW OFFHAND IF ALL OF THE REGIONS LINE UP WITH, UM, JUST THE ENERGY MARKETS, BUT I BELIEVE WITH, WITH TEXAS IT WOULD BE ERCOT.
UM, I KNOW FOR EXAMPLE, NEW ENGLAND, IT'S, IT'S THE NEW ENGLAND ISO IS CONSIDERED THE SAME REGION, AND THAT'S HOW THEY'RE DEFINING IT.
UM, SO THE REASON I, I BROUGHT UP 45 B IS BECAUSE, UM, PRETTY MUCH ANY GREEN HYDROGEN THAT'S GONNA BE PRODUCED IS GOING TO NEED TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THAT TAX CREDIT TO BE KIND OF FINANCIALLY FEASIBLE.
UM, AND THAT'S FOR A FEW REASONS.
UM, ONE IS JUST ELECTROLYZERS ARE REALLY, UH, PRETTY STILL PRETTY EXPENSIVE.
UM, YOU KNOW, I HAVE THIS TABLE ON, UM, THE, THE RIGHT HERE KIND OF BREAKS DOWN THE COST OF AN ELECTROLYZER SYSTEM, UH, IN, IN KILOWATTS PER, UH, OR DOLLARS PER KILOWATT.
UM, AND JUST THE MOST COMMON TYPE OF ELECTROLYZER OR PROTON EXCHANGE MEMBRANE OR PEM ELECTROLYZERS, UM, THOSE, AS YOU CAN SEE ARE ABOUT 800 TO 1200, UM, DOLLARS PER, PER KILOWATT.
UM, AND JUST FOR CONTEXT, UH, LIKE SOLAR IS, IS KIND OF CENTS ON THE KILOWATT.
SO, UM, THE, YOU KNOW, THERE'S STILL A LOT IN TERMS OF PRICE POINT TO BRING THOSE DOWN TO SOMETHING THAT'S GONNA BE, UH, SORT OF FINANCIALLY VIABLE.
SO IN ADDITION TO THOSE SYSTEM COSTS, UM, THERE IS, UH, THE EFFICIENCY COSTS.
SO ELECTROLYZERS ARE REALLY INEFFICIENT.
UM, THEY NEED A TON OF RENEWABLE ENERGY, UM, TO PRODUCE HYDROGEN.
AND THAT'S PART OF WHY TREASURY HAS THOSE, UH, THOSE ADDITIONAL REQUIREMENTS IS TO MITIGATE THE HUGE SPIKE IN DEMAND THAT ELECTROLYZERS CAN CAUSE IF YOU'RE, UM, FOR EXAMPLE, TRYING TO DO GRID CONNECTED ELECTROLYSIS, UM, SO YOU LOSE ABOUT 60 TO 70% OF THE NORMAL ENERGY YOU'RE PUTTING INTO AN ELECTROLYZER.
AND PART OF THAT IS JUST KIND OF, UH, PART OF THE PROCESS BECAUSE YOU'RE TAKING, YOU'RE TAKING ELECTRICITY, YOU KNOW THAT YOU GOT FROM YOUR RENEWABLE ASSET, YOU'RE THEN CONVERTING IT INTO A FUEL, AND THEN IT HAS TO BE RECONVERTED INTO ELECTRICITY LATER ON.
SO YOU ALSO ARE GETTING LOSSES THROUGHOUT THE LIFECYCLE OF THE HYDROGEN.
UM, IN ADDITION TO THAT, BECAUSE OF THOSE EFFICIENCY LOSSES, MOST ELECTROLYZERS NEED TO BE RUN, UM, PRETTY MUCH CONSTANTLY.
AND SO THAT ALSO IS WHERE YOU CAN RUN INTO ISSUES WITH, UM, MEETING THESE 45 B REQUIREMENTS, IS, IS FIGURING OUT HOW YOU CAN MATCH, UH, THAT, YOU KNOW, CONSTANT RUNNING OF THE ELECTROLYZER WITH RENEWABLE ENERGY, UH, CREDITS.
UH, AND THEN FINALLY THERE ARE JUST LIKE SOME SUPPLY CHAIN ISSUES.
UM, THIS IS SOMETHING I KNOW, UH, THERE ARE INITIATIVES IN DOE RIGHT NOW THAT ARE WORKING TO BRING DOWN THE COST OF ELECTROLYZERS AND, UM, MAKING THEM MORE AVAILABLE.
UM, BUT THEY ARE STILL, UH, PRETTY EXPENSIVE AND THEY'RE KIND OF JUST HARD TO, TO GET AHOLD OF.
SO THAT WAS ALL KIND OF LOOKING AT THE COST OF ELECTROLYSIS ITSELF.
UM, BUT THERE ARE ALSO COSTS AND OTHER, UH, FACTORS TO CONSIDER WITH, UM, BOTH THE INPUTS OF THE ELECTROLYSIS AS WELL AS TRANSPORTING THE HYDROGEN, UM, AND THEN GETTING IT TO THE, THE TURBINE AT THE END, UM, IF YOU'RE GONNA BE COMBUSTING IT.
SO, UM, YOU KNOW, THE ELECTROLYSIS INPUTS, UM, YOU KNOW, I DID NOT HAVE, UH, THE, THESE ESTIMATES ARE BASED OFF OF, YOU KNOW, KIND OF WHAT I, I SAW ON THE, THE RESOURCE GENERATION PLAN UPDATES.
SO ASSUMING KIND OF A, A ONE GIGAWATT HYDROGEN CAPABLE COMBINED CYCLE TURBINE, UM, I, YOU, THESE FIGURES ARE, ARE USING THE, THE GE SEVEN HA OH TWO TURBINE, WHICH IS ONE OF THE HYDROGEN CAPABLE COMBINED CYCLE TURBINES THAT ARE ON THE MARKET.
UM, USING THAT CALCULATION AND ASSUMING, YOU KNOW, BASED ON THAT SIZE THAT IT WOULD BE RUNNING AS, UH, EITHER
[00:25:01]
A BASE LOAD PLANT OR LIKE A MID TO BASE LOAD PLANT, UM, YOU KNOW, AROUND LIKE 6,000 HOURS, UH, A YEAR.UM, SO YOU NEED ABOUT 1500 MEGAWATTS OF NEW RENEWABLE GENERATION, UM, TO POWER THAT ELECTROLYZER.
AND THEN YOU NEED ABOUT, UM, 1,000,100 27,000, UH, 699 GALLONS OF WATER PER DAY.
UH, FOR CONTEXT, THAT'S ABOUT LIKE 1.7 OLYMPIC SIZED SWIMMING POOLS OF WATER PER DAY.
UM, AND THAT'S SOMETHING I'LL, I'LL TOUCH ON A LITTLE LATER AS WELL.
BUT, UM, ELECTROLYSIS NEEDS A TON OF WATER.
UM, SO THAT'S, THAT'S SOMETHING TO REALLY CONSIDER.
UH, WHEN, WHEN YOU'RE THINKING ABOUT, YOU KNOW, PRODUCING GREEN HYDROGEN BEYOND THOSE INPUTS, UM, YOU KNOW, WHEN YOU'RE THINKING ABOUT HOW THIS HYDROGEN'S GONNA GET TO THE PLANT, UM, UNLESS IT'S ONSITE GENERATION, UH, TRANSMISSION OF HYDROGEN IS, IS REALLY DIFFICULT AND REALLY EXPENSIVE.
HYDROGEN IS A VERY SMALL MOLECULE THAT LIKES TO, UM, LEAK.
IT'S VERY LEAK PRONE, AND IT ALSO, UM, CANNOT BE EASILY TRANSPORTED THROUGH EXISTING PIPELINES.
SO IF HYDROGEN, UM, IS RUN AT, UH, KIND OF, UH, HIGH PRESSURE THROUGH A STEEL PIPELINE, UH, IT WILL CAUSE THIS PROCESS CALLED EMBRITTLEMENT WHERE IT JUST, UH, DIFFUSES THROUGH THE, THE STEEL ALLOY AND IT CREATES ALL THESE LITTLE CRACKS.
AND, UM, THOSE CRACKS LEAD TO EXPLOSIONS, WHICH HYDROGEN EXPLOSIONS ARE, ARE ABOUT FOUR TIMES AS DEADLY AS NATURAL GAS EXPLOSIONS.
UM, SO FOR THAT REASON, IT'S VERY DIFFICULT TO RUN THEM THROUGH EXISTING STEEL PIPELINES.
UM, YOU ALSO, BECAUSE IT'S SUCH A SMALL MOLECULE AND, AND OTHER DIFFERENCES IN IT, UM, YOU TEND TO NEED ADDITIONAL COMPRESSOR STATIONS THAN YOU WOULD IF YOU'RE JUST TRANSPORTING NATURAL GAS.
UM, SO THAT FACTOR NEEDS TO BE CONSIDERED AS WELL IF YOU'RE GONNA BUILD OUT NEW PIPELINES, UM, AGAIN, BECAUSE YOU NEED, UH, DIFFERENT EQUIPMENT FOR HYDROGEN PIPELINES AND YOU NEED THOSE ADDITIONAL COMPRESSOR STATIONS, UM, HYDROGEN PIPELINES CAN COST UP TO 68% MORE THAN NATURAL GAS PIPELINES TO BUILD.
UM, THAT IS, YOU KNOW, KIND OF THE HIGHEST FIGURE.
BUT, UM, IT'S USUALLY BETWEEN 68 TO, YOU KNOW, AROUND LIKE 40% MORE THAN A NATURAL GAS PIPELINE.
UM, AND YOU KNOW, ONE OF THE REPORTS I LINKED TO THAT I HIGHLY RECOMMEND YOU ALL CHECK OUT IS, IS BY PIPELINE SAFETY TRUST.
UM, THEY GET INTO ALL THE REASONS WHY HYDROGEN BLENDING AND, AND RUNNING HYDROGEN THROUGH EXISTING NATURAL GAS PIPELINES CAN JUST BE REALLY DANGEROUS.
SO BEYOND ALL THE, THE TRANSMISSION COSTS, UM, THE OTHER THING TO CONSIDER IS, IS JUST THE COST OF THE TURBINE ITSELF.
UM, SO IT IS KIND OF HARD TO FIND A TON OF COST INFORMATION ON HYDROGEN COMBINED CAPABLE, UH, TURBINES ON THE MARKET JUST 'CAUSE THEY'RE ALL ARE VERY NEW.
BUT, UM, A, A PRETTY GOOD COMPARISON IS THE NEW ONE, GIGAWATT, UH, O CAPS, HYDROGEN CAPABLE COMBINED CYCLE TURBINE THAT'S BEING BUILT OUT IN ORANGE COUNTY, UM, BY ENTERGY.
UH, THE HYDROGEN COMPONENT OF THAT PROJECT IS A LARGER PROJECT THAN, UM, WHAT YOU ALL ARE CONSIDERING, BUT THE HYDROGEN CAPABLE, UH, PORTION OF THAT PROJECT ITSELF IS, IS ESTIMATED ABOUT 9 MILLION.
UM, SO THAT IS ANOTHER FACTOR TO CONSIDER.
AND, UH, ADJUST, OH, SORRY, I, MY LAPTOP IS BLOCKING A SECOND SCREEN.
I FORGOT THAT MY CAMERA'S THERE.
UM, BUT ALSO JUST A, A THING TO NOTE THERE IS THAT THE, THE PUC DID STATE THAT, UM, THAT ENTITY PROJECT DID NOT MEET THE BURDEN OF PROOF FOR DEMONSTRATING THE RELIABILITY, UM, OR AFFORDABILITY OF, OF HYDROGEN CO FIRING.
SO, QUICK QUESTION, THOSE ARE KIND OF ALL COST CONSIDERATION.
SO WHEN IT'S A HYDROGEN COMPATIBLE SET OF TURBINES, DOES THAT MEAN A HUNDRED PERCENT OR IS THAT SOME BLEND RIGHT NOW? AND WHEN WOULD BE THE TURBINES HAVING THE ABILITY TO, TO HANDLE A HUNDRED PERCENT HYDROGEN? YEAH, THAT'S, THAT'S A GREAT QUESTION.
SO, UM, HYDROGEN CAPABLE, PART OF THE REASON THAT, UM, THERE ARE THESE NEW TURBINES ON THE MARKET IS BECAUSE IT'S VERY DIFFICULT TO RUN, UH, HYDROGEN AT HIGH BLENDS, UH, IN EXISTING LIKE NATURAL GAS TURBINES.
UM, PART OF THAT IS 'CAUSE IT'S JUST SO MOLECULARLY DIFFERENT FROM LIKE METHANE.
UM, SO THE, FOR EXAMPLE, THE, THE GE 70 HA OH TWO TURBINE IS CAPABLE OF BLEND, THEY'RE COMBUSTING 75% HYDROGEN RIGHT NOW.
UM, AND THEN I THINK THAT THE TIMESCALE IS BY LIKE 2035, THEY'RE AIMING TO GET IT UP TO A HUNDRED, BUT THAT, UM, THAT $9 MILLION FIGURE I I MENTIONED, PART OF THAT IS THE UPGRADES THAT NEED TO HAPPEN TO GET IT TO, UH, TO BE CAPABLE OF COMBUSTING A HUNDRED PERCENT HYDROGEN.
UM, YOU KEEP SAYING IT'S A 9 MILLION COST ON YOUR SLIDE, IT SAYS 91 MILLION.
SORRY, I, I JUST NOTICED THAT AS WELL.
SO THOSE ARE KIND OF ALL THE COST CONSIDERATIONS.
UM, BUT THEN KIND OF MOVING TO CAN GREEN HYDROGEN ACTUALLY HELP YOU MEET DECARBONIZATION GOALS? SO THE BIG ISSUE HERE, UM, AS I MENTIONED, HYDROGEN IS VERY PRONE TO LEAKAGE.
[00:30:01]
AND, AND PART OF THE ISSUE WITH THAT LEAKAGE IS THAT, UM, SINCE WE HAVEN'T REALLY LIKE BUILT OUT HYDROGEN UH, EQUIPMENT AT SCALE, UH, WE DON'T HAVE EQUIPMENT THAT'S CURRENTLY SENSITIVE ENOUGH TO CAPTURE THE, THE LEVEL OF HYDROGEN LEAKS WE'D BE SEEING IF WE'RE STARTED, YOU KNOW, UH, RUNNING HYDROGEN THROUGH PIPELINES AND COMBUSTING AND ALL OF THAT.UM, WE DON'T HAVE EQUIPMENT TO CAPTURE THOSE LEAKS.
AND THE REASON THOSE LEAKS ARE SUCH A HUGE PROBLEM IS BECAUSE ONCE HYDROGEN GETS LEAKED INTO THE ATMOSPHERE, UM, IT INTERACTS WITH THESE OXY RADICALS, UM, THAT HELP, UH, THEY HELP DISSIPATE HYDROGEN, BUT THEY ALSO HELP DISSIPATE METHANE.
SO BASICALLY THE MORE HYDROGEN YOU GET INTO THE ATMOSPHERE, IT KIND OF TAKES UP ALL THOSE OXY RADICAL DANCE PARTNERS.
UH, AND SO THE METHANE CAN COMBINE WITH THEM, AND THEN THE METHANE JUST SITS IN THE ATMOSPHERE FOR LONGER.
UM, AND BECAUSE OF THAT, UM, THE HYDROGEN, THAT INDIRECT WARMING ISSUE, UM, IT'S SHORT TERM WARMING IMPACT IS ABOUT 35 TIMES WORSE THAN CO2.
IN THE FIRST 20 YEARS OF ITS LIFETIME.
IT IS SIGNIFICANTLY WORSE THAN CO2.
UM, AND THAT'S WHY THAT THAT LEAKAGE ISSUE IS SO IMPORTANT AND REALLY CONCERNING.
UM, NOW Y'ALL ARE LOOKING AT, YOU KNOW, A COMBUSTING, A FAIRLY HIGH BLEND OF HYDROGEN TO NATURAL GAS, UM, AND EVENTUALLY A HUNDRED PERCENT HYDROGEN.
AND WHEN YOU COMBUST A HUNDRED PERCENT HYDROGEN, YOU DON'T GET CO2 EMISSIONS.
HOWEVER, UH, BECAUSE OF THAT INDIRECT WARMING ISSUE, AND BECAUSE HYDROGEN IS LESS ENERGY DENSE THAN NATURAL GAS, IT IS NOT A ONE-TO-ONE, UH, YOU KNOW, AS YOU INCREASE THE VOLUME OF HYDROGEN, YOU GET AN A REDUCTION IN CO2.
UM, BECAUSE OF THAT, THAT LACK OF ENERGY DENSITY AND THEN THE LEAKAGE ISSUE, UH, THERE'S ACTUALLY A RECENT ANALYSIS THAT CAME OUT AND THAT THIS WAS LOOKING AT, UM, A A MUCH LOWER BLEND, 30% HYDROGEN WITH NATURAL GAS.
UM, IF YOU INCLUDE KIND OF THE UPSTREAM LIFECYCLE EMISSIONS THAT YOU'RE GETTING FROM THESE HYDROGEN LEAKS INTO THE ATMOSPHERE, UM, YOU'RE ONLY REALLY SEEING A 6% DECREASE IN GREENHOUSE GAS EMISSIONS.
BUT OVERALL, UM, SO THAT'S ANOTHER THING TO CONSIDER IS, IS JUST, UM, HOW THE OVERALL LIFECYCLE EMISSIONS, UM, ARE GONNA BE IMPACTED BY INCREASING THE AMOUNT OF HYDROGEN, PARTICULARLY BECAUSE, UH, AS A STUDY FOUND, YOU ARE GONNA GET A HUGE AMOUNT OF LEAKAGE JUST AS YOU'RE INCREASING THE AMOUNT OF HYDROGEN YOU'RE TRANSMITTING.
IT'S, IT'S KIND OF INEVITABLE.
UM, WE JUST DON'T REALLY HAVE ENOUGH, UH, INFORMATION OR TECHNOLOGY TO ADDRESS THE, THE LEAKAGE ISSUE RIGHT NOW.
UM, SO FINALLY, YOU KNOW, I KIND OF TOUCHED ON HOW THIS CAN IMPACT DECARBONIZATION, BUT THERE ARE A FEW OTHER, UH, ADDITIONAL DRAWBACKS TO CONSIDER, UM, NOX EMISSIONS.
SO THIS IS ACTUALLY WHY CLEAN ENERGY GROUP GOT, UM, KIND OF INVOLVED IN, IN HYDROGEN, UH, IN THE FIRST PLACE, IS BECAUSE WE WERE REALLY CONCERNED ABOUT THE ISSUE THAT HYDROGEN PRODUCES SIX TIMES AS MUCH, UH, NITROGEN OXIDE, REALLY HARMFUL AIR POLLUTANT AS METHANE WHEN IT'S COMBUSTED.
UM, NOW THE NEW HYDROGEN CABLE COMBINED CYCLE TURBINES DO ADDRESS THE NOX ISSUE.
UM, BUT WHAT THEY DO IS THEY BRING THE NOX EMISSIONS DOWN TO ABOUT THE SAME LEVELS AS A NEWER NATURAL GAS PLANT.
UM, AND FOR US, THE CLEAN ENERGY GROUP, UM, YOU KNOW, A BIG PART OF OUR MISSION IS, UM, HELPING THOSE COMMUNITIES THAT HAVE BEEN IMPACTED BY DECADES OF EXISTING NOX EMISSIONS FROM BEING LOCATED IN NEAR NATURAL GAS PLANTS.
UM, SO, YOU KNOW, WHENEVER SOMEONE'S SUGGESTING REPLACING, YOU KNOW, ONE SOURCE OF NOX EMISSIONS WITH JUST ANOTHER SOURCE OF NOX EMISSIONS, UM, THAT'S REALLY CONCERNING TO US.
UM, AND THEN WINTER RELIABILITY, UM, THIS IS SOMETHING I DID WANNA FLAG JUST BECAUSE, UH, WE HAVE SEEN SEVERAL UTILITIES KIND OF BRING UP THE IDEA OF, OF BUILDING A NEW HYDROGEN PLANT BECAUSE OF THE ISSUE OF RELIABILITY.
UM, HYDROGEN CAPABLE COMBINED CYCLE TURBINE IS, IS, IS ESSENTIALLY A NEW GAS PLANT.
UM, IT'S WORTH KIND OF TREATING IT AS A, AS A NEW GAS PLANT WHEN YOU'RE CONSIDERING WINTER RELIABILITY.
UM, THERE'S A GREAT NEW REPORT THAT I LINKED TO HERE THAT'S FROM THE UNION CONCERNED SCIENTISTS THAT LOOKS AT, UM, HOW EXCEPTIONALLY VULNERABLE TO CLIMATE RISK GAS PLANTS ARE.
UM, YOU KNOW, YOU ALL, I DON'T, I FEEL LIKE I, I DON'T NEED TO TELL YOU ALL ABOUT, UM, YOU KNOW, BOTH FROM WINTER STORM AREA BACK IN 2021, AND ALSO EVEN JUST, UM, YOU KNOW, WITH WINTER STORM HEATHER THIS PAST WEEK, UM, YOU ALL ARE FAMILIAR WITH, YOU KNOW, JUST, UH, WHAT NEEDS TO BE DONE TO, TO MAINTAIN GAS PLANTS, UH, IN, IN WINTER WEATHER.
AND, UM, WE DON'T REALLY HAVE ANY DATA ON HOW ELECTROLYSIS PERFORMS, UM, UNDER WINTER WEATHER.
YOU KNOW, THINKING ABOUT ONE, THE, THE RENEWABLES THAT ARE ATTACHED TO THE ELECTROLYZERS AND THEN THE FACT THAT YOU'RE, YOU KNOW, THIS IS A VERY WATER RELIANT, UH, PRODUCTION SOURCE.
UM, WE DON'T HAVE A TON OF GREAT DATA ON, ON WHAT THAT PERFORMANCE LOOKS LIKE OR HOW IT COULD BE IMPACTED BY SEVERE WEATHER.
UM, AND, YOU KNOW, IT'S, YOU DON'T NECESSARILY NEED, UH, JUST A, A FIRM RESOURCE LIKE A HYDROGEN TURBINE, UM, TO ADDRESS THAT RELIABILITY
[00:35:01]
ISSUE.UM, I JUST, YOU KNOW, I FOUND THIS, THIS GREAT LITTLE, LITTLE FACTOID, UH, EARLIER THIS MORNING.
THOUGHT I INCLUDED, UM, YOU KNOW, THIS PAST TUESDAY, I THINK IT WAS AROUND, UH, LIKE NEGATIVE ONE DEGREE FAHRENHEIT OR SOMETHING THROUGH MIMOSA TEXAS AND SOLAR, UH, WAS OPERATING AND DEPLOYED ABOUT 1.5 GIGAWATTS AND BATTERIES DEPLOYED, UM, 1.2 GIGAWATTS OF, OF ENERGY.
SO, UM, JUST WORTH CONSIDERING, THERE ARE OTHER OPTIONS IF RELIABILITY IS A HUGE CONCERN, UM, YOU KNOW, JUST, I, I THINK IT'S, IT'S WORTH NOT JUST LETTING RELIABILITY BE KIND OF THIS, THIS BOOGEYMAN THAT, YOU KNOW, PUSHES FORWARD A, UH, NOT NECESSARILY THE BEST OPTION.
UM, AND FINALLY JUST WATER SCARCITY.
YOU KNOW, I DID BRING UP THAT, UM, 1 MILLION GALLONS OF WATER PER DAY.
AS I SAID, ELECTROLYSIS IS JUST A VERY WATER INTENSIVE PROCESS.
UM, WE DON'T HAVE A TON OF, UH, THERE, THERE HAVE BEEN SOME STUDIES ON, ON KIND OF HOW, UM, YOU KNOW, YOU CAN, UH, LIKE I KNOW OUT IN LA THEY DID DO A STUDY OF OF OF HOW THEY COULD CONVERT WASTE WATER INTO WATER THAT COULD BE USED FOR ELECTROLYSIS.
UM, BUT YOU DO STILL GET, EVEN IF YOU'RE, YOU KNOW, TAKING WATER THAT WOULD OTHERWISE BE WASTED AND, AND PUTTING IT TOWARDS ELECTROLYSIS, YOU ARE STILL GONNA, YOU CAN'T RECYCLE ALL THE WATER THAT'S GOING THROUGH AN ELECTROLYZER.
SO YOU DO GET, STILL GET SOME LEVELS OF LOSS.
UM, AND IN PARTICULAR FOR WASTEWATER, THE WATER THAT GOES THROUGH AN ELECTROLYZER NEEDS TO BE PURIFIED.
UM, IF YOU'RE LOOKING AT PURIFYING WATER, YOU NEED ABOUT TWICE AS MUCH WATER, UM, AS YOU DO FOR IF IT WAS ALREADY PURIFIED.
SO, UM, IT'S ABOUT TWO TONS OF WATER YOU NEED PER TON OF HYDROGEN PRODUCED.
UM, IN, IN AREAS THAT ARE, ARE LOOKING AT POTENTIAL WATER SCARCITY.
UM, LIKE IN TEXAS, UH, I DO JUST ALWAYS WANNA FLAG THAT, UM, 'CAUSE IT CAN BE A, A HUGE ISSUE.
UM, SO, YOU KNOW, WE AT CLEAN ENERGY GROUP, WE'RE NOT HYDROGEN NAYSAYERS.
UH, WE DO THINK THAT GREEN HYDROGEN, UM, CAN PLAY A, A VALUABLE ROLE IN DECARBONIZING VERY SPECIFIC, UH, INDUSTRIES.
WE DON'T THINK IT REALLY MAKES SENSE FOR POWER GENERATION, BUT THINGS LIKE MARITIME SHIPPING, LONG HAUL AVIATION, UH, WHEN IT'S BEING RUN THROUGH A FUEL CELL, UM, YOU KNOW, FUEL CELLS, UH, IF YOU ARE RUNNING HYDROGEN THROUGH A FUEL CELL, YOU DON'T GET ANY OF THE, THE NEGATIVE IMPACTS FROM THE NOX EMISSIONS OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT.
UM, SO YOU KNOW, WE'RE, WE'RE, WE DO THINK THAT GREEN HYDROGEN CAN PLAY A ROLE, BUT IT'S WORTH CONSIDERING IF IT'S THE BEST USE OF IT.
UM, IF YOU'RE GONNA BE COMBUSTING IT.
UM, AND IF YOU'RE GONNA BE PRODUCING IT IN A REGION THAT CAN'T NECESSARILY HANDLE, UM, THE HUGE INCREASE IN, IN WATER DEMAND AND, UM, YOU KNOW, WHETHER BUILDING OUT A TON OF RENEWABLES TO POWER AN ELECTROLYZER, UH, IS WORTH IT VERSUS JUST BILLING OUT THEIR RENEWABLES TO DECARBONIZE EMISSIONS ON THE GRID OVERALL.
SO, UM, THAT'S KIND OF ALL I HAD TODAY.
UH, I LINKED TO SOME OTHER, UH, GREAT RESOURCES ON THERE AND, UM, YOU KNOW, HAPPY TO ANSWER QUESTIONS NOW OR YOU'RE ALL WELCOME TO TO EMAIL ME, UM, AFTERWARDS AS WELL.
ABBY, AND I MAY ASK THE PANELISTS THIS AS WELL.
UM, I'VE WROTE A COUPLE ABOUT A COUPLE OF APPLICATIONS IN HYDROGEN, THE POWER SECTOR THAT SEEM TO ME THAT ARE, I'LL SAY SMALLER SCALE THAT SEEMED INTERESTING.
ONE WAS I WAS READING ABOUT, UM, SOME DATA CENTERS THAT WERE USING HYDROGEN AS A BACKUP TO ASSURE, YOU KNOW, RELIABLE SERVICE 'CAUSE THEY NEED 24 7, BUT THEY WERE USING, UM, GREEN HYDROGEN AND FUEL CELLS.
HAVE YOU SEEN APPLICATIONS LIKE THAT THAT ARE SORT OF SMALLER SCALE FUEL CELLS THAT ARE MORE THERE FOR THOSE RELIABILITY, UH, ISSUES? SO YOU HAVE, YOU KNOW, YOU HAVE A, YOU, YOU WOULD, I GUESS YOU WOULD HAVE THE HYDROGEN ON SITE AND YOU WOULD JUST HAVE IT AVAILABLE FOR THOSE TYPE OF SITUATIONS.
AND THEN THE OTHER I WAS READING ABOUT IS, I BELIEVE IT'S DUKE ENERGY IS ACTUALLY INVESTING IN A LARGE SOLAR PLANT AND THEY'RE TAKING SOME OF THAT ENERGY FROM THE SOLAR PLANT AND, YOU KNOW, HAVING SORT OF A COUPLE MEGAWATTS ON THE SIDE OF, OF HYDROGEN.
AND AGAIN, IT'S MORE TO EXTEND THE USE OF THAT SOLAR PLANT FOR KIND OF EMERGENCIES.
IS IS THAT SOMETHING THAT MIGHT BE WORTH LOOKING AT SORT OF SMALLER SCALE FUEL CELL TECHNOLOGY? IS THAT, YEAH, SO, UM, YOU KNOW, WE, AT PLANET GROUP WE DO A TON OF WORK WITH BATTERIES.
UM, AND, YOU KNOW, BATTERIES ARE, ARE GREAT, BUT THEY ARE FOR, UM, KIND OF LIKE YOU WERE SAYING, DATA CENTERS OR WE WORK WITH A LOT OF HOSPITALS THAT HAVE LOOKED AT FUEL CELLS WHEN YOU NEED KIND OF THAT REALLY FIRM BACKUP POWER.
AND WHEN, UM, WE FOUND IT, FUEL CELLS WORK REALLY GREAT WHEN, UM, THE, THE AMOUNT OF BACKUP YOU NEED.
SO FOR EXAMPLE, WITH A HOSPITAL WHERE YOU'RE, YOU KIND OF, YOU KNOW, NEED TO BACK UP A TON OF, UM, YOU KNOW, DEMAND, UM, FUEL CELLS ARE GREAT FOR JUST BRINGING DOWN THAT BASE LOAD AND EITHER PAIRING THEM WITH A BATTERY SO THAT YOU'RE NOT, UM, SPENDING A TON OF MONEY ON AN ENORMOUS BATTERY.
UM, OR LIKE YOU'RE SAYING, WHEN YOU NEED KIND OF A FIRM BACKUP AND YOU CAN STORE THE HYDROGEN.
[00:40:01]
SMALLER SCALE USES.THERE'S ALSO, UM, SOME, SOME MULTIFAMILY HOUSING COMPLEXES OUT IN SWEDEN THAT, UH, INSTALLED SOLAR AND THE SOLAR, UH, KIND OF PRODUCES HYDROGEN THAT THEN GETS STORED AND THEN IS DEPLOYED IN FUEL CELLS, UM, LIKE DURING THE WINTER MONTHS.
UM, SO YEAH, UH, FUEL CELLS, UH, CAN HAVE A LOT OF USES AND, AND THOSE OTHER ONES THAT I FLAGGED, THE, THE MARITIME SHIPPING, AVIATION, ALL OF THAT, THAT IS ALSO ALL, UM, USING FUEL CELLS, NOT HYDROGEN COMBUSTION.
AND THEN ONE, ONE OTHER QUESTION, THE, THE DATA POINT, AND I'LL, I'LL LOOK AT YOUR SOURCE LATER ABOUT HYDROGEN PRODUCING SIX TIMES THE AMOUNT OF NOX.
SO WAS THAT, YOU SAID THAT WOULDN'T BE THE CASE IN THESE NEWER MODELS.
SO WHAT WAS, WHAT WAS THAT CASE THAT YOU WERE REFERRING TO AS BEING SIX TIMES THE AMOUNT OF NOX? YEAH, SO, UM, THE, YOU KNOW, THE, IT'S, THAT'S THE SIX TIMES FIGURE IS BECAUSE IS LOOKING AT JUST, UM, HYDROGEN COMBUSTION IN LIKE A SWIRL BURNER.
SO, UM, BECAUSE NOX FORMATION IS A FUNCTION OF TEMPERATURE, HYDROGEN JUST BURNS MUCH HOTTER THAN METHANE DOES.
UM, SO THAT'S KIND OF WHERE YOU GET THOSE NOX ISSUES.
SO FOR EXAMPLE, UM, IN, UH, LIKE NATURAL GAS TURBINES WHERE THEY'RE BLENDING A, A BLEND OF HYDROGEN AND NATURAL GAS, THEY DO SEE THAT SPIKING NOX EMISSIONS BECAUSE MOST NOX EMISSIONS CONTROL TECHNOLOGIES IN JUST LIKE A NATURAL GAS PLANT, THE, THE WAY MOST OF THEM OPERATE IS BY COOLING THE FUEL MIX, RIGHT? SO EITHER BY INJECTING AIR OR WATER, UM, TO BRING DOWN THE TEMPERATURE OF THE FUEL MIX WHEN IT'S COMBUSTING, SO LESS NOX FORMS, UM, WHEN YOU HAVE SOMETHING THAT'S JUST GONNA BURN HOTTER NO MATTER WHAT, UH, IT'S JUST MUCH HARDER TO REDUCE THAT AMOUNT OF NOX FORMATION.
SO THOSE, UM, THE COMBINED CYCLE PLANTS, UM, I DON'T KNOW THE EXACT TECHNOLOGY THAT THEY'RE USING TO, TO ADDRESS THE NOX ISSUE, BUT IT IS, UH, EASIER TO MITIGATE THE NOX EMISSIONS WHEN IT'S A HUNDRED PERCENT HYDROGEN WHEN IT'S NOT A BLEND BECAUSE YOU'RE NOT WORKING WITH KIND OF TWO DIFFERENT, UM, ELEMENTS AND YOU'VE GOTTA DEAL WITH DIFFERENT TEMPERATURES.
THIS SAYS OUR BETAS, UM, GIVEN THE LIMITS THAT WE HAVE TO ACCESSING FRESH WATER IN THIS PART OF TEXAS, UH, HAVE Y'ALL LOOKED AT USING SEAWATER INSTEAD? THAT'S, UH, ALSO, YEAH, ALSO AVAILABLE TO US IN OUR DISTRICT, IN OUR, IN OUR AREA, SO TO SPEAK.
YEAH, SO I'LL SAY THAT, UM, THAT, UH, LA STUDY THAT I MENTIONED, THEY DID LOOK AT DESALINATION AND THEY REJECTED IT AS, AS AN OPTION BECAUSE, UM, DESALINATION IS ALSO VERY ENERGY INTENSIVE AND YOU GET A LOT OF NASTY BYPRODUCTS.
SO, UM, THAT COMBINED WITH THE FACT THAT YOU NEED SO MUCH WATER, UH, IT JUST DOESN'T REALLY MAKE SENSE TO, YOU KNOW, BE INVESTING THAT MUCH ENERGY INTO JUST GETTING THE WATER THAT YOU THEN NEED TO MAKE THE HYDROGEN.
UM, IT JUST, IT MAKES IT KIND OF NOT VIABLE BOTH FINANCIALLY AND, AND ALSO JUST, YOU KNOW, FROM A KIND OF ENVIRONMENTAL STANDPOINT 'CAUSE OF THE BYPRODUCTS.
WHAT OTHER QUESTIONS DO WE HAVE? OKAY, WELL THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US IN YOUR PRESENTATION.
SO I THINK IT'S POSTED ON THE WEBSITE.
SO HERE, SLIDE DECK IS POSTED ON THE EUC WEBSITE.
I REALLY APPRECIATE THE PRESENTATION.
[6. Discussion on hydrogen technology by Michael Hoffman, Austin Energy Environmental Services Manager; Michael Webber, University of Texas; Patrick Drupp, Sierra Club; Joseph Benoit, PSM; and moderated by Dana Harmon.]
NUMBER SIX, WHICH IS THE PANEL DISCUSSION.DANA, DO YOU WANT TO INTRODUCE EVERYONE AND START? YES, I'LL, I'LL BE HAPPY TO.
I'M AN INDEPENDENT CONSULTANT, UM, WORKING AMONG OTHER THINGS ON, UH, THE HIGH VELOCITY HYDROGEN HUB WITH THE HOUSTON ADVANCED RESEARCH CENTER.
UM, ALSO PREVIOUSLY SERVED AS A, UM, ON THE RESOURCE MANAGEMENT COMMISSION FOR THE CITY OF AUSTIN.
ARE WE GETTING SOME, I BELIEVE WE'RE GETTING A LITTLE BIT OF FEEDBACK FROM SOMEONE ONLINE.
COULD YOU MUTE, PLEASE? IS THAT BETTER? OKAY, GREAT.
UM, SO, UH, KURT ASKED ME TO GIVE A LITTLE BIT OF BACKGROUND, UM, IN, IN TERMS OF HOW WE GOT HERE, AND I'LL DO THAT AND THEN, UM, IT WILL BE MY PLEASURE TO INTRODUCE OUR
[00:45:01]
PANELISTS TODAY.SO IN NOVEMBER, AUSTIN ENERGY PRESENTED A PRELIM, PRELIMINARY RECOMMENDATIONS FOR THE AMENDMENT OF THE CURRENT RESOURCE GENERATION AND CLIMATE PROTECTION PLAN TO 2030.
THESE RECOMMENDATIONS INDICATED THE NEED TO BUILD NEW LOCAL DISPATCHABLE, CARBON FREE GENERATION AUSTIN ENERGY MODELED HYDROGEN CAPABLE, CAPABLE COMBINED CYCLE GENERATORS AND NOTED GREEN HYDROGEN AS ONE POSSIBLE PATH TO CARBON FREE BY 2035.
THE UC HAD A NUMBER OF QUESTIONS ABOUT THE ENVIRONMENTAL CONCERNS OF PRODUCTION, DELIVERY AND USE OF ELECTRIC FOR ELECTRICITY GENERATION, AS WELL AS QUESTIONS ABOUT RELATIVE COSTS OF HYDROGEN AND TECHNOLOGY READINESS.
IN THE INTEREST OF PROVIDING THE EUC WITH MORE INFORMATION ABOUT HYDROGEN PRODUCTION IN ITS POTENTIAL USE AS A FUEL TO GENERATE ELECTRICITY, AUSTIN ENERGY AGREED TO ASSEMBLE THIS PANEL OF SUBJECT MATTER EXPERTS, UH, TO SPEAK TO THE CHALLENGES AND POTENTIAL OF HYDROGEN.
THE FORMAT FOR THIS EVENING IS TO GIVE EACH OF THE, TO INTRODUCE EACH OF THE PANELISTS, AND I HAVE EACH OF THE PANELISTS GIVE BRIEF INTRODUCTORY REMARKS FOR ABOUT TWO MINUTES.
AND THEN I'LL ASK A SERIES OF QUESTIONS, UM, BASED UPON THE DISCUSSION FROM THE NOVEMBER MEETING, AND THEN WE'LL OPEN THE FLOOR TO MEMBERS OF THE COMMISSION FOR ADDITIONAL QUESTIONS.
THAT SAID, PLEASE FEEL FREE TO INTERRUPT US AT ANY TIME DURING THE PRESENTATION.
UM, SO NOW LET ME PLEASE INTRODUCE OUR PANELISTS.
UH, FIRST WE HAVE JEFF BENOIT.
JEFF IS THE VICE PRESIDENT OF CLEAN ENERGY SOLUTIONS FOR MICRO FOR POWER SYSTEMS MANUFACTURING, KNOWN WIDELY IN THE GAS TURBINE POWER PLANT SERVICE INDUSTRY.
AS PSM LOCATED IN JUPITER, FLORIDA, EXCUSE ME, BETWEEN PSM AND GE IS HE HAS HELD TECHNICAL, COMMERCIAL AND BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT LEADERSHIP ROLES IN THE POWER INDUSTRY FOR 38 YEARS, FROM AVIATION NAVY NUCLEAR POWER WIND PROJECT DEVELOPMENT TO HEAVY DUTY GAS TURBINES.
HOWEVER, MOST OF HIS CAREER HAS BEEN SPENT IN THE GAS TURBINE FIELD, DESIGNING, DEVELOPING, AND COMMERCIALIZING INNOVATIVE COMBUSTION SYSTEMS THAT DELIVER ULTRA LOW EMISSIONS IN HYDROGEN FUEL FLEXIBILITY.
JEFF, A HOLDER OF FOUR US PATENTS, OBTAINED HIS BS IN MECHANICAL ENGINEERING FROM CLARKSON UNIVERSITY AND MS IN MECHANICAL ENGINEERING FROM MIT.
NEXT WE HAVE PATRICK DROP ON, UH, ZOOM.
UH, PAT IS THE DIRECTOR OF CLIMATE POLICY AND ADVOCACY AT THE SIERRA CLUB, WHERE HIS TEAM FOCUSES FEDERAL LEGISLATIVE AND ADMINISTRATIVE POLICY FOR DECARB DECARBONIZING THE TRANSPORTATION, INDUSTRIAL, AND POWER SECTORS.
HE'S A VETERAN OF MULTIPLE POLITICAL CAMPAIGNS AND HAS WORKED IN THE ADMINISTRATION ON CLIMATE CHANGE EDUCATION AT NOAA AND IN THE SENATE AS ENERGY AND ENVIRONMENTAL STAFFER.
PRIOR TO HIS WORK IN POLITICS AND POLICY, HE RECEIVED A PHD IN CHEMICAL OCEANOGRAPHY WITH A FOCUS ON CLIMATE SCIENCE.
TO MY RIGHT, WE HAVE MIKE HOFFMAN.
MIKE IS THE ENVIRONMENTAL SERVICES MANAGER AT AUSTIN ENERGY, RESPONSIBLE FOR ENVIRONMENTAL COMPLIANCE ACROSS ALL OF THE UTILITIES OPERATIONS.
PRIOR TO JOINING AE THREE YEARS AGO, MIKE WORKED AS A CONSULTANT FOR 13 YEARS IN ENVIRONMENTAL COMPLIANCE, ENERGY EFFICIENCY, AND RENEWABLE ENERGY.
AND AT THE FAR LEFT, WE HAVE DR. MICHAEL WEBER.
UH, MICHAEL IS THE JOHN J MCTA CENTENNIAL ENGINEERING CHAIR, CHAIR IN ENGINEERING IN THE DEPARTMENT OF MECHANICAL ENGINEERING AT THE UNIVERSITY OF TEXAS AT AUSTIN, AND CTO OF ENERGY IMPACT PARTNERS, A $3 BILLION CLEAN TECH VENTURE FUND.
WEBER'S EXPERTISE SPANS RESEARCH AND EDUCATION AT THE CONVERGENCE OF ENERGY POLICY, EXCUSE ME, ENGINEERING POLICY AND COMMERCIALIZATION ON TOPICS RELATED TO INNOVATION, ENERGY AND THE ENVIRONMENT.
HIS BOOK POWER TRIP, THE STORY OF ENERGY, IS THE BASIS OF AN AWARD-WINNING PBS SERIES, WHICH IS IN ITS SECOND SEASON.
UM, SO WE'LL GIVE, UH, EACH OF OUR PANELISTS A CHANCE FOR BRIEF, UH, INTRODUCTORY REMARKS, ABOUT TWO MINUTES EACH.
UM, AGAIN, WE'RE FOCUSING THE DISCUSSION TODAY ON ENVIRONMENTAL IMPACTS COST AND TECHNOLOGY READINESS OF, OF HYDROGEN.
AND, UM, LET'S GO MAYBE IN THE SAME ORDER YOU WERE INTRODUCED.
SO JEFF, PLEASE, THANK YOU VERY MUCH DANA, AND THANK YOU TO THE COMMISSION FOR THIS OPPORTUNITY.
UM, SO I MENTIONED 36 YEARS, SO I OBVIOUSLY STARTED, UH, WHEN I WAS 10 YEARS OLD.
SO
UM, I WANTED TO TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THE HISTORY OF GAS TURBINES.
FIRST, UH, I'M QUITE PASSIONATE ABOUT THESE, UH, ENERGY CONVERSION DEVICES AND, UH, THE FIRST GAS TURBINE WAS ACTUALLY USED.
FIRST COMMERCIAL OPERATION OF GAS TURBINE FOR POWER WAS IN 1939.
SO IT'S BEEN 85 YEARS, UH, OF GAS TURBINES USED FOR COMMERCIAL POWER GENERATION.
THAT UNIT WAS FOUR MEGAWATTS, 17% SIMPLE CYCLE EFFICIENCY.
AND WHERE ARE WE TODAY? WE HAVE ONE GAS TURBINE, UH, TODAY BY SIEMENS ENERGY THAT CAN PRODUCE ALMOST 600 MEGAWATTS AT 43%.
YOU TIE THAT INTO A COMBINED CYCLE PLANT IN, YOU'RE APPROACHING 64%.
[00:50:01]
GR UH, GROWTH IN, UH, THE PAST EIGHT AND A HALF DECADES OF USE.UH, IN TODAY'S POWER GENERATION OR CAPACITY IN THE UNITED STATES, THERE'S ABOUT, UH, 1,270 GIGAWATTS OF POWER, WIND, SOLAR, NUCLEAR HYDRO, COAL AND GAS TURBINES.
GAS TURBINES IS ABOUT 480 GIGAWATTS OF THAT VERY DISPATCHABLE, FLEXIBLE SOME BASE LOAD.
UM, AND THAT REPRESENTED IN 2022, ABOUT 38% OF THE POWER GENERATED IN OUR COUNTRY.
AND WHAT WE'RE SEEING TODAY, AND WHAT I WANTED TO SPEAK TO WAS, UH, THE FACT THAT, UH, THIS DEVICE IS TRANSITIONING.
IT'S, UH, THERE'S SO MANY OF THEM, UH, CURRENTLY, UH, INSTALLED TODAY.
AND WHAT THEY'RE DOING IS THEY ARE BECOMING A TRUE COMPLIMENT, UH, PARTNER WITH RENEWABLES.
UH, WEATHER DEPENDENT RENEWABLES NEED TO BE BACKED UP.
UH, AND, UH, THERE NEEDS TO BE THAT SUPPORT MECHANISM OF DISPATCHABLE POWER, UH, IN ORDER TO ASSURE THE RELIABILITY THAT WE NEED.
WHAT'S VERY IMPORTANT ABOUT, UH, THESE GAS TURBINES IS THEY DO HAVE TO OPERATE WITH VERY LOW EMISSIONS.
UH, AND OVER THE MANY DECADES, THE TECHNOLOGY THAT'S BEEN PUT IN THESE GAS TURBINES, UH, HAS BEEN TRULY REMARKABLE TO GO FROM A BASE LOADED UNIT, UH, TO WHERE IT CAN OPERATE IN A, JUST A VASTLY WIDE RANGE, UH, IN TERMS OF SPEED OF LOADING, UH, TO THE POINT WHERE THEY'RE AT MINIMUM ENVIRONMENTAL LOAD.
BUT THE ONE THING THAT'S REALLY COMING TO THE FORE IS THE TECHNOLOGY FOR HYDROGEN COMBUSTION, NOT ONLY IN NEW GAS TURBINES, BUT FOR RETROFITS.
UH, THINK OF THE INSTALLED GAS FLEETS, UH, THAT ARE THERE EASILY RETROFITTABLE, UH, TO BE HYDROGEN READY.
AND WE'LL TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT HYDROGEN READY, HYDROGEN CAPABLE, UH, AND AS WE GO ALONG WITH PANEL.
PAT, WOULD YOU LIKE TO GO NEXT? SURE.
UM, CAN YOU HEAR ME ALL RIGHT? JUST WANNA DOUBLE CHECK.
UM, WELL, THANKS FOR HAVING ME THIS EVENING.
UM, SORRY I CAN'T BE THERE IN PERSON WITH YOU ALL.
I'M BA I'M BASED IN WASHINGTON, DC UM, BUT I'M REALLY LOOKING FORWARD TO THIS CONVERSATION, HEARING MORE FROM THE OTHER PANELISTS.
UM, I'D ALSO SAY I SECOND IN EVERYTHING THAT ABBY JUST SAID IN HER PREVIOUS PRESENTATION, UM, YOU'LL PROBABLY HEAR ME REPEAT A LOT OF IT.
UM, SO, UH, FIRST, YOU KNOW, I REALLY APPRECIATE THE EFFORTS TO ELIMINATE, UM, AUSTIN ENERGY'S CARBON EMISSIONS AND FIND RELIABLE AND AFFORDABLE OPTIONS FOR THE PUBLIC.
UH, MORE UTILITIES SHOULD OBVIOUSLY FALL A SUIT, UM, BECAUSE WE KNOW WE NEED TO RAPIDLY MOVE AWAY FROM FOSSIL FUELS, AND PARTICULARLY, PARTICULARLY WE NEED A RAPID, INSIGNIFICANT DECREASE IN METHANE EMISSIONS OVER THE NEXT DECADE OR SO.
UM, AT SIERRA CLUB, YOU KNOW, WE THINK THAT HYDROGEN CAN POTENTIALLY PLAY A ROLE IN OUR ECONOMY'S DECARBONIZATION EFFORTS, UH, PARTICULARLY FOR SECTORS OR APPLICATIONS WHERE DIRECT, DIRECT ELECTRIFICATION ISN'T CURRENTLY AN OPTION.
UM, BUT THE DEVIL, YOU KNOW, IS REALLY IN THE DETAILS.
AND BOTH THE HYDROGEN AND USE AND, AND THE METHOD OF PRODUCTION ARE KEY CONSIDERATIONS IN THESE CONVERSATIONS.
UM, I THINK THE QUESTION FOR HYDROGEN REALLY SHOULD BE NOT, UH, SHOULDN'T BE CAN IT BE USED FOR APPLICATION X OR APPLICATION Y, BUT RATHER SHOULD IT BE USED.
UM, AND I KNOW WE'RE GONNA GET INTO MORE DETAILS LATER, UH, BUT THERE'S A LOT OF CONCERNS ABOUT HYDROGEN PRODUCTION, LIMITED SUPPLY, NOX EMISSIONS, UM, AND OVERALL EFFICIENCY RELATIVE TO, TO OTHER OPTIONS.
AND SO WE FEEL THAT, YOU KNOW, BASE LOAD POWER REALLY IS NOT CONSIDERED A GOOD OPTION OR A GOOD USE FOR HYDROGEN.
UM, I ALSO WANTED TO BE CLEAR THAT THE EMISSIONS BENEFITS OF BLENDING HYDROGEN WITH NATURAL GAS HAVE SOMETIMES BEEN EXAGGERATED AND IN MANY CASES CAN ACTUALLY INCREASE OVERALL EMISSIONS.
THAT'S IF YOU'RE LOOKING AT CERTAIN TYPES OF HYDROGEN, UM, I KNOW YOU ALL ARE FOCUSED ON GREEN HYDROGEN.
UM, BUT THE POINT IS THAT, UH, YOU KNOW, IT'S AN ENERGY INTENSIVE PROCESS, AND EVEN GREEN HYDROGEN, UM, IF IT'S NOT MADE WITH STRICT REQUIREMENTS LIKE ABBY HAD MENTIONED, CAN ACTUALLY LEAD TO AN OVERALL INCREASE IN GRID EMISSIONS.
UM, AND THE LAST THING I REALLY WANTED TO EMPHASIZE, UM, IS THAT THERE'S NUMEROUS AND CONSIDERABLE EQUITY CONCERNS AROUND BUILDING THESE NEW GAS PLANTS, UM, FROM THE EXPANSION OF FOSSIL FUEL INFRASTRUCTURE TO THE BUILD OUT OF NEW HYDROGEN INFRASTRUCTURE THAT WOULD BE NECESSARY.
AND THOSE CONCERNS STILL EXIST EVEN IF YOU DO SWITCH TO A HUNDRED PERCENT HYDROGEN OPERATION DOWN THE ROAD.
SO I'D REALLY ENCOURAGE, UM, YOU TO, TO TAKE INTO EFFECT THAT, THAT COMMUNITIES HAVE TO BE MEANINGFULLY ENGAGED IN EVERY STEP OF THE PROCESS TO ENSURE THEIR CONCERNS ARE HEARD AND INCLUDED ON THIS.
UM, AGAIN, THANKS FOR HAVING ME.
I LOOK FORWARD TO GETTING, UH, MORE INTO THE DETAILS, UH, IN A LITTLE BIT.
AND THANK YOU TO THE COMMISSION FOR THE OPPORTUNITY TO, UH, MEET WITH YOU THIS EVENING.
[00:55:01]
I WAS ASKED TO COME TO ADDRESS SPECIFICALLY THE ENVIRONMENTAL ISSUES ASSOCIATED WITH HYDROGEN PRODUCTION AND HYDROGEN COMBUSTION AS A, UH, COAL-FIRED FUEL FOR POWER PRODUCTION.SO, UM, YOU'LL PROBABLY HEAR A LOT OF THE SAME THINGS THAT ABBY PRESENTED AS, AS MY MAIN TOPICS OF FOCUS, UH, BUT JUST TO GO THROUGH THE FOUR KIND OF MAIN TOPICS THAT I'LL BE DISCUSSING THIS EVENING.
NUMBER ONE, THE NOX EMISSIONS.
UM, AS WE HEARD BEFORE, THE, UM, HYDROGEN IS A FUEL JUST BURNS HOTTER THAN NATURAL GAS.
AND BECAUSE NOX, UM, PRODUCTION IS A, IS A FUNCTION OF HEAT, UM, THAT ADDED HEAT CREATES, UH, ADDED NOX EMISSIONS.
SO, UM, NOX EMISSIONS ARE A PROBLEM FOR A NUMBER OF DIFFERENT REASONS.
UM, THEY CONTRIBUTE TO THE, UH, FORMATION OF GROUND LEVEL OZONE, WHICH IS, UH, ALL OF, YOU KNOW, DURING OZONE ACTION PERIODS.
AND, AND PERIODS IN THE SUMMERTIME, UH, CAN CREATE RESPIRATORY ISSUES, ESPECIALLY FOR OLDER ADULTS, FOR CHILDREN, UH, FOR PEOPLE WHO WORK OUTDOORS PRIMARILY.
UM, ALSO NOX EMISSIONS COME WITH INCREASING COST OF COMPLIANCE WITH MORE ENVIRONMENTAL REGULATIONS THAT ARE COMING OUT, SPECIFICALLY LOOKING AT HOW TO CONTROL NOX EMISSIONS THROUGH A VARIETY OF DIFFERENT REGULATORY MECHANISMS HERE LOCALLY.
WE ALSO HAVE THE ISSUE OF, UM, THE N EIGHT HOUR OZONE NON-ATTAINMENT, UH, LEVEL.
SO WE'RE CURRENTLY GETTING VERY CLOSE IN TRAVIS COUNTY TO, UM, TO THE EIGHT HOUR OZONE NON-ATTAINMENT THRESHOLD.
AND CERTAINLY ANY NEW, UM, NOX EMISSIONS LOCALLY WILL, UH, WILL EXACERBATE THAT ISSUE.
UM, AS JEFF POINTED OUT, NOX EMISSIONS AS A, AS A COFIRED FUEL WITH HYDROGEN, IT'S A SOLVABLE PROBLEM.
THE, ACTUALLY THE THREE LARGEST, UM, TURBINE MANUFACTURERS, GE, SIEMENS MITSUBISHI, THEY'VE ALL MADE PUBLICLY AVAILABLE STATEMENTS KIND OF COMMITTING TO, UM, ACHIEVING 100% HYDROGEN COAL-FIRE, UM, OR ACTUALLY 100% HYDROGEN AS THE FUEL, WHILE ALSO MINIMIZING THE NOX EMISSIONS ASSOCIATED WITH THAT BY, UM, TECHNOLOGY ADVANCES IN THE COMBUSTOR ITSELF.
UM, THE SECOND TOPIC, GREENHOUSE GAS EMISSIONS.
UM, YOU KNOW, THE US RIGHT NOW IN TERMS OF ITS DECARBONIZATION STRATEGY IS, IS BASICALLY ALL IN FOR, UH, FOR HYDROGEN AND SPECIFICALLY FOR CLEAN HYDROGEN, UM, AS ONE OF THE CRITICAL COMPONENTS OF ITS DECARBONIZATION STRATEGY, UH, AS OTHERS HAVE MENTIONED, YOU KNOW, MOST SPECIFICALLY FOR THOSE APPLICATIONS THAT REQUIRE HIGH HEAT, SO CEMENT, UH, MANUFACTURING, STEEL PRODUCTION, THOSE TYPES OF INDUSTRIES, HEAVY TRANSPORT AS WELL.
UM, BUT YOU, YOU KNOW, YOU ALSO HAVE, UM, HYDROGEN GAS LEAKAGE, WHICH AS ABBY MENTIONED, UM, THE HYDROXYL RADICALS IN THE ATMOSPHERE ARE THE NATURAL SINK FOR METHANE GAS.
UH, SO WHEN HYDROGEN LEAKS FROM ANY, ANY POINT OF THE LIFECYCLE FROM PRODUCTION TO END USE, UH, IT EFFECTIVELY BINDS TO THOSE NATURALLY OCCURRING HYDROXYL RADICALS AND, UH, EFFECTIVELY IS AN INDIRECT GREENHOUSE GAS.
SO IT, UH, EXTENDS THE, THE LIFE OF METHANE IN THE ATMOSPHERE.
UM, BEST ESTIMATES ON LEAKAGE RATES, HOWEVER, ARE TWO TO 6%.
YOU KNOW, WE HAVE A THOUSAND MILES PLUS OF DEDICATED HYDROGEN PIPELINES HERE IN TEXAS, ALONE IN THE GULF COAST.
UM, IT'S AN ISSUE THAT THE INDUSTRY IS AWARE OF.
UM, THEY, YOU KNOW, THEY'RE SENSITIVE TO IGNITION RISK, SO THEY DO MONITOR, UH, FOR LEAKAGE.
BUT AS ABBY MENTIONED, UH, YOU KNOW, THE, THE, THE SENSITIVITY OF, OF THAT MONITORING, UH, CAN AND SHOULD AND LIKELY WILL BE IMPROVED AS THE INDUSTRY MATURES.
NUMBER THREE, HYDROGEN PRODUCTION AND WATER USE.
I THINK ABBY DID A, A PRETTY GOOD SUMMARY OF, OF THAT ISSUE.
BUT ESSENTIALLY JUST THE, THE, THE CHEMISTRY, NINE LITERS OF DEIONIZED WATER TO PRODUCE ONE KILOGRAM OF HYDROGEN, UH, PLUS ANY PROCESS LOSSES THAT MIGHT BE INCURRED AT THE SAME TIME.
UM, SO, UM, NUMBER FOUR AND PERHAPS WHERE I CAN ADD A LITTLE BIT MORE, UM, COLOR TO THE CONVERSATION, UH, SOME EMERGING AND APPLICABLE ENVIRONMENTAL REGULATIONS.
SO, UM, I DISCUSSED THE, THE NS STANDARD FOR NON-ATTAINMENT.
IEPA HAS A NEW GOOD NEIGHBOR PLAN.
[01:00:01]
IN FEDERAL COURT, BUT UM, IT WOULD REQUIRE SIGNIFICANT, UH, IT, IT'S A SIGNIFICANT CONSTRAINT ON THE SUPPLY OF NOX EMISSIONS ALLOWANCES, SO EFFECTIVELY MAKING IT MORE EXPENSIVE, UH, TO BE IN COMPLIANCE.AND WE'LL TALK A LITTLE BIT MORE ABOUT THAT IN SOME OF THE DISCUSSIONS.
UH, AND THEN THE EPA HAS A NEW PROPOSED GREENHOUSE GAS RULE THAT WOULD REQUIRE, AGAIN, SIGNIFICANT GREENHOUSE GAS EMISSION REDUCTIONS FROM, UM, NEW AND MODIFIED GAS FIRED POWER PLANTS.
SO I'M ALSO LOOKING FORWARD TO THE CONVERSATION AND ANSWERING ANY QUESTIONS Y'ALL MIGHT HAVE ON THOSE TOPICS.
LOT A LOT TO TALK ABOUT FOR SURE.
I WAS A COMMISSIONER OF SHOOTING FAST, SO IT'S NICE TO BE IN A ROOM NAMED FOR HER AND APPRECIATE THE OPPORTUNITY TO BE PART OF THIS CONVERSATION.
I'M A PROFESSOR OF MECHANICAL ENGINEERING AT UNIVERSITY OF TEXAS, SO JUST DOWN THE ROAD.
AND I'VE GOT A COUPLE OF RESEARCH SPECIALTIES, ONE OF WHICH IS GRID RELIABILITY AND DECARBONIZATION, AND ALSO A LOT OF WORK ON HYDROGEN.
BEEN CONDUCTING RESEARCH IN HYDROGEN FOR ALMOST 20 YEARS FOR TEXAS AND FOR INDUSTRY FOR DIFFERENT GLOBAL CUSTOMERS, THE PENTAGON AND OTHER PLACES.
SO I'VE GOT SOME DEPTH ON HYDROGEN AND THE GRID AND THAT TIES IN TOGETHER FOR, UH, A UTILITY LIKE AUSTIN ENERGY.
I ALSO, FOR A FEW YEARS WAS BASED IN PARIS, FRANCE.
I WAS THE CHIEF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY OFFICER FOR A COMPANY NAMED ENG G ENGIE IS ONE OF THE LARGEST ENERGY COMPANIES IN THE WORLD.
I THINK THEY'RE THE 10TH LARGEST IN THE WORLD BY CAPACITY.
AND IT'S A COMPANY THAT HAS A VERY STRICT GOAL TO DECARBONIZE VERY QUICKLY.
AND AS THE GUY IN CHARGE OF RESEARCH INNOVATION FOR THEM, I HAD TO DEVELOP A RESEARCH PLAN TO HELP MEET THAT GOAL, WHICH IS VERY DIFFICULT.
SO I HAD ABOUT FOUR 50 RESEARCHERS AROUND THE WORLD REPORTING TO ME AT DIFFERENT LABS, ONE OF WHICH WAS OUR HYDROGEN LAB, COUPLE DOZEN PEOPLE AT OUR HYDROGEN LAB IN PARIS, AND THEN A LOT OF GRID AND OTHER LABS IN TURBINE LABS IN DIFFERENT PLACES, AND BRUSSELS AND SINGAPORE AND CHILE.
AND SO LEARNED A LOT ABOUT HYDROGEN FROM THAT ROLE IN PARIS ON THE CORPORATE SIDE, AND ACTUALLY HAVING TO DELIVER AND OPERATE AND PRODUCE ELECTRICITY.
SO HAPPY TO SORT OF TALK FROM THAT EXPERIENCE.
AND WE ACTUALLY DID A LOT OF THE HYDROGEN AND NATURAL GAS BLENDING EXPERIMENTS IN THE TURBINES AND THE PIPELINES ABOUT FIVE OR SIX YEARS AGO, WE WERE THE FIRST TO DO THEM, FRANKLY.
AND, UH, OWN I THINK MORE SIEMENS TURBINES NG DOES THAN ANY OTHER COMPANY IN THE WORLD.
SO HAVE GREAT DEPTH OF EXPERTISE WITH SIEMENS AND PERHAPS GENERAL ELECTRIC AS WELL.
UH, THERE, THERE'S A LOT I CAN GO ON FOR A LONG TIME 'CAUSE I'M A PROFESSOR WHO LIKES TO DRONE, SO I'LL TRY TO BE CAREFUL.
BUT THERE, THERE'S A LOT ABOUT GRID RELIABILITY, DECARBONIZATION, CLEANLINESS, AFFORDABILITY THAT WE NEED TO KEEP IN MIND.
AND I'VE GOT A, A FEW DIFFERENT LESSONS THAT I'VE LEARNED OVER MY YEARS AS A PROFESSOR AND AS A EXECUTIVE IN CHARGE OF RESEARCH.
ONE IS, THERE'S NEVER ONE ANSWER.
THERE'S ALWAYS A SUITE OF OPTIONS.
THE EVERY SINGLE ANSWER YOU CAN IMAGINE HAS VERY IMPORTANT PITFALLS.
AND SO THE MOST ROBUST SOLUTIONS ALWAYS HAVE A VARIETY OF TOOLS IN THE TOOLKIT.
THAT'S JUST THE SMARTEST WAY TO DESIGN ANYTHING, IS TO HAVE AS MANY TOOLS IN THE TOOLBOX AS POSSIBLE BECAUSE EACH SOLUTION HAS SOME BENEFITS AND SOME HAVE DIS BENEFITS.
PICK WHATEVER YOUR FAVORITE FUEL OR TECHNOLOGY IS.
IT HAS SOME DOWNSIDES AND SOME UPSIDES.
AND I THINK WE NEED TO KEEP THAT IN MIND AROUND DIVERSIFIED PORTFOLIOS OF ENERGY CONVERSION AND EVERYTHING ELSE.
THE OTHER LESSON I LEARNED, WHICH IS KIND OF EMBARRASSING, UH, BECAUSE I, I HAVE A LOUD MOUTH AND I WRITE A LOT AND I SPEAK A LOT AND I HAVE A HABIT OF PUTTING PREDICTIONS ON PAPER IN THE PUBLIC RECORD.
AND THIS IS A VERY DANGEROUS GAME TO MAKE PREDICTIONS ABOUT THE FUTURE IN PUBLIC, IN WRITTEN FORM.
AND I JUST COLLECTED SOME OF MY ESSAYS AND OP-EDS FROM THE NEW YORK TIMES, OR YOU NAME IT, AND PUBLISHED 'EM IN A BOOK THAT CAME OUT A FEW WEEKS AGO.
AND I'VE BEEN IN THIS GAME LONG ENOUGH.
I NOW HAVE A RECORD OF WHETHER I WAS RIGHT OR WRONG.
AND I WENT BACK AND I LOOKED AT WHEN I WAS RIGHT AND WHEN I WAS WRONG.
AND THIS IS KIND OF A FUNNY EXERCISE, AND I WAS REALLY RIGHT SOMETIMES AND I WAS REALLY WRONG SOMETIMES.
BUT THE, THE THEME FOR ME IS GENERALLY SPEAKING, IF I WAS PESSIMISTIC ABOUT INNOVATION, I WAS LIKELY TO BE WRONG.
THIS IS A RECURRING THEME FOR ME THAT INNOVATION MOVES MORE QUICKLY THAN WE WE CAN EXPECT EVEN FOR A SLOW MOVING UTILITY INDUSTRY.
AND THIS IS FROM MY PERSPECTIVE AS A PROFESSOR AND AT THE UTILITY INDUSTRY, ENGIE IS BASICALLY JUST LIKE AUSTIN ENERGY, BUT A WHOLE LOT BIGGER.
LIKE, UM, IT'S 170,000 EMPLOYEES INSTEAD OF 1700.
SO WE NEED TO KEEP IN MIND THAT THE PACE AT WHICH WE MAKE DECISIONS MIGHT LAG THE PACE AT WHICH SOLUTIONS WILL BE AVAILABLE, AND THEREFORE WE NEED TO FUTURE PROOF WHATEVER WE DO AND BE OPEN TO ALL SORTS OF OPTIONS.
AND SO IF WE HAVE IN MIND THE LESSON THAT WE PROBABLY NEED A LOT OF TOOLS IN THE TOOLKIT AND INNOVATION'S PROBABLY GONNA MOVE FASTER THAN OUR BRAINS CAN KEEP UP WITH SOMETIMES THAT WILL PERHAPS KEEP US HUMBLE AND OPEN TO WHAT THE DIFFERENT OPTIONS WILL BE.
I KNOW I HAVE ALL SORT TIMES ABOUT HYDROGEN AND GRID RELIABILITY.
I ALSO JUST, ANOTHER PERSONAL THING IS MY FAVORITE MOLECULE IS AMMONIA.
I THINK WE SHOULD ALL HAVE A FAVORITE MOLECULE.
AND, UH, I DID MY PHD ON AMMONIA ON I INVENTED, SO I INVENTED, I GOT INTO THE WORLD FROM EMISSIONS MONITORING.
I'VE INVENTED A BUNCH OF SENSORS FOR MEASURING POLLUTION AND I INVENTED AMMONIA SENSOR, FOR EXAMPLE.
AND SO, UH, WE COULD TALK ABOUT AMMONIA AS A HYDROGEN CARRIER AND AMMONIA TURBINES THAT TOSHIBA MITSUBISHI OTHER PEOPLE MAKE AS A, A POSSIBILITY TO AVOID SOME OF THE PROBLEMS THAT WERE WERE MENTIONED BY SOME
[01:05:01]
OF OUR PRIOR SPEAKERS.I LOOK FORWARD TO THE CONVERSATION AND REALLY THANKS FOR HAVING ME BACK.
THANK YOU ALL FOR THOSE, UH, THOSE OPENING REMARKS.
CERTAINLY APPRECIATE THE, THE CONTEXT AND, UM, WE'VE, WE'VE CERTAINLY GOT A LOT TO TALK ABOUT.
UM, ABBY DID A GOOD JOB, UH, SETTING UP FOR US THE VARIOUS TYPES OF HYDROGEN AND KIND OF INTRODUCING THE, THE HYDROGEN RAINBOW.
SO WE DON'T, UH, WON'T GO INTO A TON OF DETAIL ON THAT.
UM, BUT STARTING AT, AT KIND OF A HIGH LEVEL, I WILL ASK, ARE THERE, IS THERE ANY ADDITIONAL CONTEXT OR FLAVOR THAT YOU'D LIKE TO GIVE TO THE, THE RAINBOW, SO TO SPEAK? AND WHEN WE TALK ABOUT GREEN VERSUS BLUE AND, AND CLEAN HYDROGEN AND THE LIKE.
UM, AND THEN ALSO AT A HIGH LEVEL, WHAT IS THE POTENTIAL ROLE THAT YOU COULD SEE HYDROGEN PLAYING IN THE TRANSITION TO A CARBON FREE ERCOT GRID IN THE FUTURE? AND THIS ONE WILL BE KIND OF A OPEN FOR DISCUSSION FOR, FOR ALL OF YOU.
I, THIS IS THE FIRST TIME I, I HEARD OF ORANGE HYDROGEN.
SO THAT WAS, UH, THAT WAS AN ANO A NICE ADD.
UM, I WANTED TO SPEAK TO HYDROGEN.
I, I THINK WE'RE DOING OURSELVES A DISSERVICE BY TALKING ABOUT HYDROGEN WITH BASE LOAD.
UM, I THINK THE, UH, COMPARISONS TO LARGE VOLUMES OF WATER IS, IS PROBABLY NOT THE TYPE OF DISCUSSION WE NECESSARILY WANT.
SIMILARLY, TO 20 TO 25 YEARS AGO WHEN WE HAD YOU, YOU INSERT WIND AND SOLAR IN PLACE OF HYDROGEN AND ELECTROLYZERS.
WE HAVE TO GO THROUGH A COMMERCIALIZATION, UH, AND A SCALE, UH, SITUATION.
BUT IN TERMS OF HYDROGEN, IN PARTICULAR FOR GAS TURBINES, I MENTIONED HOW THEY COMPLEMENT, UH, RENEWABLES VERY WELL.
I SEE SMALLER GAS TURBINES THAT CAN UTILIZE RETROFITS.
I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT NEW TURBINES.
WE'VE GOT ALMOST 500 GIGAWATTS OF INSTALLED GAS TURBINES.
I'M NOT ADVOCATING THE REPLACEMENT OF EACH OF THOSE GAS TURBINES, BUT STRATEGICALLY PURPOSED, IDEALLY LOCATED, ATTACHED TO THE GRID WHERE THEY ARE AROUND RENEWABLES.
AND WHEN THERE'S AN EXCESS OF RENEWABLES, INVARIABLY IN TEXAS AND CALIFORNIA AND UH, UP IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST, THERE'S AN ABUNDANCE IN AN OVERSUPPLY THAT DRIVES THE PRICE SOMETIMES NEGATIVE.
WELL, THAT ELECTRICITY USE THAT FOR ELECTRO ELECTROLYSIS STORE THE HYDROGEN.
AND THEN IN THOSE AREAS WHERE THERE'S NO WIND OR THERE'S SOLAR AND YOU NEED THAT BOOST SIMPLY INJECTED INTO A TURBINE THAT CAN CONSUME A HUNDRED PERCENT HYDROGEN.
AND ONE THING I WOULD SAY IS THAT THE TECHNOLOGY EXISTS FOR RETROFITS TO BE UP TO ALMOST 100% TODAY.
AND WITHIN THE NEXT FEW YEARS, WE'RE TALKING ABOUT TURBINES 25 MEGAWATTS, 40, 80, 100 MEGAWATTS THAT CAN CONSUME 100% HYDROGEN WITH VERY LOW LEVELS OF NOX EMISSIONS.
I SEE THOSE EARLY SUCCESSES, US AS INNOVATORS AND EARLY ADOPTERS OF THIS IS WHAT WE STRIVE FOR, TO SET THE EXAMPLE FOR THOSE GOING FORWARD.
I APPRECIATED THE CONVERSATION ABOUT ELECTROLYSIS OF WATER USING RENEWABLES TO MAKE HYDROGEN.
AND I WANNA GO BACK TO THAT FIRST CHART, UM, THAT WAS SHOWN EARLIER.
JUST AS A REMINDER, THERE ARE DOZENS AND DOZENS OF WAYS TO MAKE HYDROGEN IN THE HEADLINE.
SAY IT'S MOSTLY STEAM METHANE REFORMING USING METHANE OR ELECTROLYSIS.
THAT'S WHAT GETS THE CONVERSATION AROUND THE WORLD TODAY.
WE MOSTLY MAKE HYDROGEN BY STEAM METHANE REFORMING AND METHANE GASIFICATION OF COAL AND GASIFICATION OF OIL.
WE DON'T REALLY MAKE HYDROGEN FROM ELECTROLYSIS TODAY.
PERHAPS WE WILL IN THE FUTURE.
THE, UH, THE FEDERAL POLICIES MOSTLY ARE ORIENTED AROUND ELECTROLYSIS.
THERE'S ALSO LYSIS, THERE'S BIOLOGICAL PATHWAYS.
THERE'S ELECTRIC PATHWAYS OTHER THAN ELECTROLYSIS.
THERE'S PYROLYSIS, THERE'S NATURAL HYDROGEN.
THERE'S, THERE'S A LOT OF WAYS TO MAKE HYDROGEN.
SO IF THERE'S ANY, ONE TAKEAWAY I'D LIKE PEOPLE TO KNOW IS THAT ELECTROLYSIS AIN'T THE END OF THE STORY.
IN FACT, FOR THE REASONS THAT YOU HEARD ELECTROLYSIS MIGHT NOT MAKE SENSE FOR TEXAS.
IT TENDS TO BE REALLY CLEAN, BUT EXPENSIVE AND WATER INTENSIVE.
STEAM METHANE REFORMING IS PRETTY CHEAP, BUT ALSO WATER INTENSIVE AND VERY DIRTY.
STEAM METHANE REFORMING CARBON CAPTURE IS CLEAN, YET WATER INTENSIVE AND NOT AS CHEAP.
PYROLYSIS LOOKS VERY CLEAN AND EFFICIENT, NOT CHEAP YET, BUT WILL BE IN A COUPLE YEARS.
THEY HAVE THEIR DIFFERENT TRADE-OFFS.
UH, ONE THING THAT WAS MENTIONED AT THE END IS NATURAL HYDROGEN OR GEOLOGIC HYDROGEN.
SO INTERESTINGLY, MY RESEARCH TEAM AT ENGIE IS THE WORLD LEADER ON THIS.
WE, WE'VE HAD A PROGRAM FOR A COUPLE DECADES.
IT TURNS OUT THERE ARE PLACES WHERE THE EARTH MAKES HYDROGEN.
IT JUST BUBBLES OUTTA THE GROUND NATURALLY.
AND YOU CAN CAPTURE IT AND USE IT.
ONE EXAMPLE IS THE MIDATLANTIC RIDGE IN THE ATLANTIC OCEAN.
THE BUBBLES COMING OUT OF THE RIDGE IS HYDROGEN.
AND THAT RIDGE COMES OUT IN PLACES LIKE ICELAND.
AND IF YOU DRILL A WELL FOR GEOTHERMAL HEAT AND ICELAND, ABOUT 30% OF THE GAS THAT COMES OUT IS HYDROGEN.
SO THE EARTH WILL MAKE IT FOR YOU FOR FREE, BASICALLY, IF YOU KNOW WHERE TO LOOK.
AND SO THERE'S A LOT OF EFFORT GOING THERE.
AND I THINK THAT BECOMES A PRETTY GOOD COMPETITOR.
IT'S VERY CLEAN AND, AND AVOIDS A LOT OF CARBON AND AVOIDS A LOT OF LAND AND WATER.
AND THAT'S JUST ONE OF THE MANY PATHWAYS.
[01:10:01]
MIGHT BE INTERESTING FOR A VARIETY OF REASONS, ELECTROLYSIS WITH WIND OR SOLAR OR SOMETHING, BUT HAS SOME PRETTY SERIOUS SETBACKS.AND SO I WOULD KEEP IN MIND THAT THERE ARE A WHOLE LOT OF WAYS TO MAKE HYDROGEN.
A LOT OF THEM ARE PRETTY CLEAN.
SOME OF THEM ARE VERY AFFORDABLE AND NOT VERY ENVIRONMENTALLY IMPACTFUL, WHICH IS GREAT.
WE WANT, AND THEN WE CAN GET THE BENEFITS OF HYDROGEN.
'CAUSE ONCE YOU HAVE HYDROGEN, IT'S GREAT FUEL.
YOU CAN BURN IT, YOU CAN MAKE ELECTRICITY, YOU CAN USE IT AS A BUILDING BLOCK FOR CHEMICALS.
IT'S JUST HARD TO MAKE, MOVE AND STORE.
SO IF WE CAN FIGURE OUT HOW TO MAKE, MOVE AND STORE IT, THEN WE CAN USE IT WITH TURBINES OR FUEL CELLS, YOU NAME IT, OR RECIPROCATING ENGINES.
AND SO JUST PLEASE, YOU KNOW, REMEMBER THAT THERE ARE DOZENS AND DOZENS OF WAYS OF, OF MAKING HYDROGEN NOT JUST ELECTROLYSIS.
SO, AND I WILL PREACH THIS UNTIL I DIE ANYWAY, I JUST WANT TO HAVE THAT AS A TAKEAWAY.
I JUST WANTED TO QUICKLY FOLLOW UP ON JEFF'S COMMENT ABOUT, UM, THE USE OF HYDROGEN AS BASELOAD CAPACITY AND BRING UP, UH, AGAIN, THE, THE NEW EPA PROPOSED RULE AROUND GREENHOUSE GAS STANDARDS FOR POWER PLANTS.
WHERE, UH, FOR NEW GAS PLANTS, IF YOU ARE UNDER 20% CAPACITY FACTOR, WHICH BASICALLY MEANS MORE OR LESS, YOU'RE RUNNING ABOUT 20% OF THE TIME OVER THE COURSE OF THE YEAR, UH, YOUR REQUIREMENT IS TO ADOPT THE MOST EFFICIENT, UH, TECHNOLOGY AVAILABLE FOR, FOR GAS PLANTS.
HIGH EFFICIENCY, UM, INSTALLATION OF TECHNOLOGY AND OPERATION.
IF YOU'RE BETWEEN, UH, 20 AND 50%, UH, CAPACITY FACTOR, YOU HAVE A LITTLE BIT MORE STRINGENT REQUIREMENTS UNDER THIS EPA RULE WHERE, UH, BY 2032, YOU HAVE TO ACHIEVE 30% COAL-FIRE OF HYDROGEN IN THE, UH, THE EQUIVALENT GREENHOUSE GAS REDUCTIONS, UH, THEREIN.
NOW, IF YOU GO OVER 50% CAPACITY FACTOR, THERE'S UH, THERE'S AN EVEN HIGHER STRINGENCY, WHICH IS YOU ALSO HAVE TO GET TO 30% BY 2032.
BUT, UH, ABOVE AND BEYOND THAT, YOU HAVE TO GET TO 96% HYDROGEN COFI BY 2038.
SO HYDROGEN COFI UNDER THIS NEW EPA REGULATION IS, UH, WHAT IS DEEMED BEST SYSTEM OF EMISSION REDUCTION OR BSER, WHICH IS, UH, DEFINED IN IN THE CLEAN AIR ACT IN OTHER PLACES.
UM, SO, YOU KNOW, BY DESIGN, THE EPA IS ALSO DISCOURAGING.
UM, THE, YOU KNOW, THE, THE USE OF NATURAL GAS FOR, UH, FOR BASE LOAD ABOVE 50% CAPACITY FACTOR.
I GUESS I WILL JUMP IN QUICK TOO.
UM, TOTALLY AGREE ON ON MOST OF WHAT'S BEEN SAID HERE.
AND CERTAINLY THERE ARE A LOT OF DIFFERENT WAYS TO MAKE, UM, TO MAKE HYDROGEN NOT JUST LIMITED TO ELECTROLYSIS.
UH, I WOULD, THE ONE WORD OF CAUTION I'D HAVE IS THAT IN ANY PRODUCTION METHOD OF HYDROGEN, MAKE SURE THAT THE ENTIRE LIFE CYCLE IS BEING ACCOUNTED FOR, UM, OF, OF THE PRODUCTION PROCESS.
AND I THINK THAT'S SOMETHING THAT GETS LOST A LOT OF TIMES AS PEOPLE ARE TALKING ABOUT IT.
UM, YOU KNOW, WHETHER YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT BLUE HYDROGEN, UH, BEING THE STEAM METHANE REFORMATION WHERE SOME OF THE CARBON EMISSIONS ARE CAPTURED, UH, OR, OR GREEN HYDROGEN, UM, POWERED BY ELECTROLYSIS, THE WHOLE LIFE CYCLE NEEDS TO BE ACCOUNTED FOR.
UM, YOU KNOW, THERE'S, THERE'S BEEN SOME RESEARCH, RESEARCH TO SHOW THAT, UH, YOU KNOW, BLENDING IN BLUE HYDROGEN OR EVEN BURNING IT AT VERY, VERY HIGH, UM, UH, UH, PERCENTAGES CAN ACTUALLY INCREASE YOUR EMISSIONS RATES WHEN YOU ACCOUNT FOR THE WHOLE BLUE HYDROGEN ECOSYSTEM AND THE METHANE LEAKAGE, UM, IN, IN THE SYSTEM AND, AND WHATNOT.
UM, AND AGAIN, UH, ABBY MENTIONED IT EARLIER, BUT GREEN HYDROGEN, THE WAY THAT IT'S MADE REALLY MATTERS ALSO.
UM, IF YOU'RE NOT MEETING ALL THOSE CRITERIA THAT SHE HAD MENTIONED ABOUT ADDITIONALITY AND REGIONALITY AND TIME MATCHING, UM, IT'S POSSIBLE THAT YOU'RE ALSO INCREASING GRID EMISSIONS.
UM, AND THEN YOU'RE JUST KIND OF USING A HIGH ENERGY INTENSIVE PROCESS TO MAKE A FUEL THAT YOU'RE GONNA BURN WHEN YOU COULD HAVE JUST USED THE RENEWABLE ENERGY IN THE FIRST PLACE.
SO, UM, THAT'S JUST REALLY A, A MAIN POINT THAT I WANTED TO MAKE.
THERE IS IN, IN ALL OF THESE PROCESSES, AND THERE ARE DOZENS OF WAYS TO MAKE HYDROGEN, UM, IT REALLY, REALLY MATTERS THAT THE FULL LIFE CYCLE IS TAKEN INTO ACCOUNT, NOT JUST WHAT'S HAPPENING AT THE STACK WHEN YOU BURN IT, OR EVEN JUST RIGHT AT THE POINT OF PRODUCTION, BUT THE WHOLE PROCESS, UM, AND THE WHOLE LIFE CYCLE BEHIND IT.
THANK YOU PAT, AND THANK YOU ALL FOR, FOR THOSE COMMENTS.
UM, SO NOW MAYBE LET'S, LET'S DO A LITTLE BIT OF A DEEPER DIVE INTO SOME OF THE ENVIRONMENTAL CONSIDERATIONS.
UM, YOU EACH HAVE MENTIONED, UM, SEVERAL KIND OF STEPS IN THE PROCESS FROM PRODUCTION TO COMBUSTION, UM, AND, AND OTHER CONSIDERATIONS TO TAKE INTO ACCOUNT SUCH AS, UH, LEAKAGE THAT, THAT ABBY MENTIONED EARLIER.
UM, AND, AND SHE PROPOSED THIS KIND OF LEAST REGRETS FRAMEWORK.
UM, AND SO REALLY HOW MIGHT WE, AND HOW MIGHT THE ELECTRIC UTILITY COMMISSION BEGIN
[01:15:01]
THINKING ABOUT HOW TO, UM, MITIGATE THE ENVIRONMENTAL RISKS ASSOCIATED WITH, WITH HYDROGEN? AND THAT CAN BE ON, ON THE PRODUCTION SIDE, THAT CAN BE ON THE COMBUSTION SIDE, UM, AND, AND REALLY IMPACTS TO EVEN LOCAL, UH, LOCAL IMPACTS SUCH AS TO AIR QUALITY, UM, AND, AND THE LIKE.UM, MIKE, WOULD YOU LIKE TO START US OFF? SURE.
UH, SO, YOU KNOW, I THINK ONE OF THE BIGGEST CHALLENGES OVERALL, UH, THAT WOULD CERTAINLY HAVE CASCADING, UH, ENVIRONMENTAL CHALLENGES ASSOCIATED WITH IT WOULD BE THE ENORMOUS TASK IN FRONT OF US AS A, AS A SOCIETY OF BUILDING ENOUGH RENEWABLE ELECTRICITY CAPACITY, UH, TO KEEP PACE WITH, NUMBER ONE, POPULATION GROWTH, ECONOMIC GROWTH, UH, NUMBER TWO, THE MASS ELECTRIFICATION THAT IS, UH, THAT IS IN THE CROSSHAIRS OF OUR, OF OUR TARGETING.
AND, AND THEN THREE, IF YOU ADD GREEN HYDROGEN PRODUCTION, UM, ESTIMATES ARE BY 2050 JUST TO KEEP PACE, WE WOULD NEED TO DOUBLE OUR CURRENT RENEWABLE ENERGY CAPACITY.
UH, AND CERTAINLY OTHERS ON THE PANEL ARE MUCH MORE VERSED IN THIS THAN I, BUT, UM, UH, IF YOU ADD THE, THE GREEN HYDROGEN PRODUCTION, UH, IT WOULD BE EVEN EVEN MORE THAN THAT UP TO TRIPLE THE CURRENT, UH, RENEWABLE ENERGY CAPACITY THAT WE WOULD REQUIRED.
UM, I DO THINK, HOWEVER, THE, UH, THE CLEAN HYDROGEN PRODUCTION TAX CREDIT, THE 45 V TAX CREDIT THAT ABBY WAS MENTIONING, THAT THE, UH, PROPOSED GUIDANCE HAS RECENTLY COME OUT, I THINK THAT WILL BE A STRONG GUARDRAIL FOR, UH, FOR THE DEPLOYMENT AT SCALE OF A, UH, CLEAN HYDROGEN ECONOMY AS, UH, AS IT IS INTENDED TO DO.
IT'S INTENDED TO HELP TO ACCELERATE THE SCALING OF, UH, CLEAN HYDROGEN INDUSTRY.
AND I SAY CLEAN BECAUSE, UM, THE, THE TAX CREDIT ITSELF IS NOT, UM, IS NOT FOCUSED ON GREEN HYDROGEN AS TO SAY, UH, ONLY, UH, ELECTROLYSIS WITH RENEWABLES.
IT HAS A WHOLE HOST OF DIFFERENT PATHWAYS, UM, THAT ARE LOW CARBON EMITTING.
UM, BUT, YOU KNOW, TO, TO ABBY'S POINT ABOUT, UM, THE, THE DIFFERENT, YOU KNOW, THE THREE PILLARS THAT, UH, THAT WOULD BE REQUIRED FOR, UM, ELECTRICITY UNDER THIS FRAMEWORK TO, UH, TO BE CONSIDERED QUALIFIED, THE INCREMENTALITY, MEANING THAT, UH, WE DON'T WANT EXISTING RENEWABLES TO BE KINDA REPURPOSED FOR, UH, CLEAN HYDROGEN PRODUCTION.
WE WANT, UM, NEW ADDITIONAL CAPACITY, UM, THE TEMPORAL MATCHING, UH, AND THEN THE, THE DELIVERABILITY SO THAT IT'S KIND OF IN THE SAME REGION.
UM, YOU KNOW, A LOT OF ENVIRONMENTAL GROUPS CAME OUT, UM, VERY STRONGLY IN SUPPORT OF THE, OF THESE GUARDRAILS AS IT WERE.
BUT ALSO, UM, THERE WAS A LETTER FROM A LOT OF GROUPS IN INDUSTRY WHO CAME OUT IN SUPPORT OF THIS, UM, AIR PRODUCTS, SOME OTHER, UM, ELECTROLYSIS MANUFACTURERS, SOME, UM, SOME ELECTROLYSIS AND, AND RENEWABLES, UH, PROJECT DEVELOPERS WROTE A LETTER TO, UH, I BELIEVE DOE AND IRS STATING THEIR SUPPORT FOR THE STRONGER STANDARDS IN THE 45 V UH, TAX CREDIT AND HAVE, HAVE STATED A, A COMMITMENT TO, I THINK, 50 GIGAWATTS OF ELECTROLYSIS PROJECTS, WHICH, UH, EQUATES TO 6 MILLION METRIC TONS PER YEAR OF GREEN HYDROGEN.
SO, UM, THERE ARE INDUSTRY PLAYERS WHO, UH, WHO CERTAINLY SEE AND ACKNOWLEDGE THE, THE COST AND THE, AND THE TECHNICAL CONSTRAINTS, BUT THEY ARE, UM, THEY SEE A BIG BUSINESS OPPORTUNITY AND THEY'RE, THEY'RE, UH, PUBLICLY STATING THEIR SUPPORT AND THEIR, THEIR WILLINGNESS TO JUMP IN.
UM, YOU KNOW, CERTAINLY WE HAVE, UM, HYDROGEN LEAKAGE.
UH, THERE ARE A LOT OF, UM, THERE'S A LOT OF ATTENTION ON HYDROGEN LEAKAGE ALREADY IN THE INDUSTRY.
I MENTIONED THAT, UM, TEXAS AND THE GULF COAST HAS, UM, ONE OF THE BIGGEST HYDROGEN ECONOMIES IN THE WORLD.
UM, WE HAVE A THOUSAND PLUS MILES OF DEDICATED HYDROGEN PIPELINE.
UM, IGNITION RISK IS, IS CERTAINLY A CONCERN.
UM, YOU KNOW, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WE, WE WOULD BE ABLE TO DO IS, LIKE ABBY MENTIONED, IMPROVING LEAK, DE DETECT LEAK DETECTION TECHNOLOGY, UH, ESPECIALLY AT THE CONNECTORS, AT THE COMPRESSORS, UH, STORAGE VESSELS.
UM, AND, UM, YOU KNOW, I, I THINK, UH, THE, WHEN, WHEN YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT BLUE HYDROGEN AND THE, UH, THE CARBON CAPTURE AND SEQUESTRATION, THERE ARE A NUMBER OF DIFFERENT THINGS THAT COULD BE DONE IF AND WHEN THAT BECOMES, UH, A MAJOR OPTION FOR, UH, FOR PRODUCERS OF HYDROGEN.
UM, MAKING SURE THAT THE CLASS SIX EPA PERMITTING PROCESS IS CONTINUOUSLY STRENGTHENED IN TERMS OF SITE EVALUATION CRITERIA, MONITORING, REPORTING AND VERIFICATION.
[01:20:01]
UM, AND, YOU KNOW, JUST CONTINUOUSLY MAKING SURE THAT THE, THE CLASS SIX WELL PERMITTING PROCESS IS, UM, IS MEETING THE, THE STANDARDS AND EXCEEDING THE STANDARDS TO THE GREATEST EXTENT POSSIBLE.WHAT I THINK YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT THE ENVIRONMENTAL CONCERNS OF HYDRO.
SO IT DEPENDS ON, IF YOU LOOK ENVIRONMENTAL CONCERNS, IT'S MOSTLY IN THREE STAGES, THE PRODUCTION, THE TRANSPORTATION OF STORAGE, AND THEN THE CONSUMPTION.
AND YOU'LL HAVE DIFFERENT CONCERNS ALONG THE WAY.
IF YOU BURN IT AT CERTAIN TEMPERATURES, YOU MIGHT GET NOX FORMATION, NITROGEN OXIDE FORMATION.
IF YOU INCREASE THE PRESSURES BY THE WAY, THAT SLOWS DOWN THE NOX FORMATION.
SO THE, THE POLLUTION YOU FORM IS A FUNCTION OF TEMPERATURE AND PRESSURE.
AND SO YOU CAN DESIGN WHAT LOW NOX BURNERS OR HIGH COMPRESSION RATIO BURNERS AND TURBINES THAT HAVE LOWER EMISSIONS.
IF YOU MAKE IT WITH WATER, THEN YOU GOTTA WORRY ABOUT WATER.
IF YOU MAKE IT WITH A WIND FARM, YOU GOTTA WORRY ABOUT THE LAND IMPACTS OF THE WIND.
IF YOU MAKE IT WITH SCRUMS, YOU METHANE REFORM, YOU HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT THE CO2.
SO THERE ARE ENVIRONMENTAL CONCERNS ALL UP AND DOWN.
AND I WOULD SAY THAT MOST CAN BE MITIGATED.
UM, THE ONE THAT I WORRY ABOUT THE MOST IN TEXAS IS WATER.
BUT WE HAVE ALL SORTS OF CONCERNS ON HYDROGEN LEAKAGE.
MY GROUP ACTUALLY HAS HYDROGEN LEAKAGE RESEARCH THAT'S COMING OUT IN ABOUT TWO MONTHS.
WE RELEASED IT AT THE INTERNATIONAL MECHANICAL ENGINEERING CONFERENCE IN OCTOBER AND, UH, AGAIN A FEW WEEKS AGO.
SO WE'VE GOT NEW RESULTS LOOKING AT THE LIFECYCLE EMISSIONS OF HYDROGEN SUPPLY CHAIN FROM PRODUCTION THROUGH TRANSPORTATION AND USE, INCLUDING LEAKAGE IN ITS INDIRECT CLIMATE EFFECTS, AND FIND THAT IT'S ACTUALLY A VERY SMALL EFFECT.
UM, SO THERE'S BEEN SOME PAPERS OUT THERE THAT A FEW PEOPLE MENTIONED ABOUT HOW HYDROGEN'S 35 TIMES WORSE THAN CO2, THAT KIND OF THING.
BUT WE DON'T USE CO2 AS A FUEL FOR, FOR POWER PLANTS.
IF YOU COMPARE IT AGAINST USING NATURAL GAS OR COAL OR ANY OTHER FORM, IT ENDS UP LOOKING PRETTY CLEAN.
AND THOSE LEAKAGE RATES THAT THAT CAN KEEP IN MIND IS, UM, THEY SHOULD BE NORMALIZED BY THE ENERGY CONTENT, NOT THE MASS HYDROGEN'S, A VERY LIGHT MOLECULE.
SO THERE ARE A VARIETY OF WAYS TO LOOK AT IT, BUT, UM, OUR RESEARCH THAT WE JUST RELEASED AND WILL BE PUBLISHED IN A COUPLE WEEKS IS THAT IF YOU LOOK AT LIFECYCLE FUGITIVE EMISSIONS OF HYDROGEN, IT ENDS UP NOT REALLY BEING A VERY BIG DEAL FROM A CLIMATE WARMING IMPACT.
STILL KEEPS IT PRETTY CLEAN, UM, AND IT KEEPS IT FAR BELOW WHERE WE WOULD BE WITH A METHANE NATURAL GAS TURBINE BY FAR.
UH, AND IF YOU USE THAT HYDROGEN FOR HEAVY INDUSTRY LIKE STEEL, OTHER THINGS, YOU GET INCREDIBLE EMISSIONS REDUCTIONS.
SO THAT DOESN'T MEAN WE WANT FUGITIVE EMISSIONS, BY THE WAY.
WE DON'T WANT THEM FOR THE SAFETY RISES THAT YOU HEARD FROM MIKE.
SO LIKE IT LIKES TO BURN, SO WE DON'T WANT TO HAVE LEAKING HYDROGEN ANYWAY.
BUT IT'S REALLY NOT THAT BIG A DEAL FROM A LIFECYCLE PERSPECTIVE.
I, I THINK THAT I, I DON'T KNOW HOW TO SAY, BUT THAT'S ESSENTIALLY OVERBLOWN.
THE FIRST PAPER ON THAT CAME OUT HAS ALREADY KIND OF BEEN DISCREDITED.
I, I DON'T KNOW HOW TO SAY IT ANY MORE POLITELY THAN THAT.
AND SO, UM, AND I SAY THIS AS AN EMISSIONS, GUY'S, HOW I GOT MY START THERE IS A PROBLEM.
AND THAT THERE AREN'T VERY MANY EMISSION SENSORS.
I THINK THE HYDROGEN EMISSIONS INDUSTRY IS PRETTY NASCENT, SO WE NEED TO DEVELOP MORE TECHNOLOGIES THERE, KIND OF LIKE, THERE WEREN'T GOOD METHANE SENSORS DECADES AGO, AND THERE ARE NOW.
UM, BUT IF I HAD TO CHOOSE BETWEEN FUGITIVE HYDROGEN EMISSIONS AND FUGITIVE METHANE EMISSIONS, I WOULD ABSOLUTELY TAKE FUGITIVE HYDROGEN EMISSIONS.
IT'S A HUGE STEP IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION.
NO EMISSIONS OF COURSE IS BETTER.
SO I WORRY ABOUT THE WATER AND THE LAND IMPACTS, AND I WORRY ABOUT THE, UM, ABOUT EMISSIONS FROM SEA METHANE REFORMING OR OTHER THINGS.
BUT I THINK IF WE USE HYDROGEN THE RIGHT WAY TO DISPLACE DIRTIER OPTIONS, IT'S A HUGE EMISSIONS BENEFIT, MEANING IT HELPS US AVOID A LOT OF EMISSIONS, AND WE NEED TO KEEP THAT IN MIND.
AND I'VE GOT ALL SORTS OF OTHER COMMENTS ABOUT RELIABILITY.
MATT, I CAN'T SEE YOU BACK THERE.
WOULD YOU LIKE TO CHIME IN
YOU KNOW, I WOULD SAY FOR, FOR SOME OF THE ENVIRONMENTAL IMPACTS THAT WE'RE CONCERNED ABOUT WHEN IT COMES TO BLUE HYDROGEN AT LEAST, IS, IS, UM, STILL THE RELIANCE ON, UH, METHANE GAS AND ALL OF THE ISSUES THAT COME FROM THE EXTRACTIVE INDUSTRY, WHETHER IT'S FRACKING AT THE SOURCE OR, YOU KNOW, UM, THE TRANSPORTATION AND POTENTIAL METHANE LEAKAGE.
UH, THAT THAT CAN HAPPEN AS, AS YOU GET IT TO, UM, THE STEAM METHANE REFORMATION.
AND FOR GREEN HYDROGEN, UM, YOU KNOW, AGAIN, IT USES A LOT OF WATER AND IT'S, IT CAN BE AN ENERGY HOG AND, UM, YOU KNOW, I CAN'T SAY IT ENOUGH TIMES, IF YOU DON'T, UH, ACCOUNT FOR THE ENERGY USAGE CORRECTLY, UM, YOU'RE ACTUALLY JUST GONNA DIVERT EXISTING CLEAN RESOURCES OR, OR, OR, UM, YOU KNOW, CAUSE UH, UH, A NEED TO BACKFILL ON THE GRID WITH, WITH, UM, PROBABLY GAS OR COAL.
AND, UM, IN THE LONG RUN, THAT ACTUALLY IS GONNA INCREASE YOUR GRID EMISSIONS AND HAVE LOCAL EFFECTS FROM, UM, THE AIR POLLUTANTS THAT COME WITH THOSE, UH, PLANTS.
SO THAT'S WHY THOSE THREE PILLARS ARE SO IMPORTANT, BECAUSE IF YOU DON'T MEET THEM CORRECTLY, UM, YOU'RE LIKELY TO JUST INCREASE THE USE OF FOSSILS SOMEWHERE ELSE ON THE GRID, UM, TO, TO FILL IN.
UM, AND SAME THING ON THE SAFETY TRANSPORTATION STORAGE SIDE.
[01:25:01]
JUST A LOT THERE.AND, UH, YOU KNOW, MOST HYDROGEN PRODUCTION IS CURRENTLY CO-LOCATED WITH WHERE IT'S USED.
UM, THE MORE WE EXPAND AN INDUSTRY AND TRY AND START MOVING IT AROUND, UM, THEN, THEN YOU RUN INTO MORE ISSUES, I THINK, WITH THE INFRASTRUCTURE, UH, AND THE STORAGE, UM, AND, AND THE NEED TO, UH, TRANSMIT IT SAFELY AND DISTRIBUTE IT SAFELY AND PREVENT LEAKAGE AND EVERYTHING THAT, UM, FOLKS HAVE ALREADY TALKED ABOUT.
UM, NOW MAYBE LET'S MOVE ON TO, TO KIND OF THE COST COMPONENT OF, OF THIS DISCUSSION.
AND JEFF, MAYBE WE'LL, WE'LL TAKE IT OVER TO YOU FIRST.
UM, WHAT DO YOU SEE AS THE BIGGEST SHORT TERM INFLUENCES ON THE PRICE, EXCUSE ME, OF THE PRODUCTION OF HYDROGEN AND THE CAP CAPABILITY TO PRODUCE IT AT SCALE, BE IT GREEN OR, OR REALLY ANY OTHER TYPE OF HYDROGEN? I THINK THE, THAT'S A GOOD QUESTION.
I THINK THE BIGGEST ISSUE, I THINK IS WHERE'S THE DEMAND GONNA BE COMING FROM? YOU NEED TO HAVE THAT DEMAND PULL, UH, ON HYDROGEN.
UH, SO SCALING IS GOING TO BE DEPENDENT ON THAT.
AND I THINK DR. WEBER BROUGHT UP A GOOD POINT.
HYDROGEN CAN BE MADE IN MANY DIFFERENT WAYS.
UH, IF I LOOK IN TERMS OF HYDROGEN PRODUCTION AND MOLECULE MOVEMENT, UH, AND MONETIZATION OF MOLECULES, WE ARE SEEING HYDROGEN PIPELINES, UH, BEING, UH, PUT IN THE GROUND, UH, NEW WI WITH STEEL, BUT, UH, ABLE TO DEAL WITH THE HYDROGEN EMBRITTLEMENT.
UH, WE'RE ALSO SEEING THE MOVEMENT OF AMMONIA, UH, FOR, UH, EXPORT, FOR USE FOR, UH, CLEAN, UH, CLEAN FERTILIZER.
UM, AND, AND THEN ALSO FOR CRACKING TO, UH, TO MAKE HYDROGEN.
SO WHAT WHAT I SEE IS, UH, GREEN, UH, HYDROGEN HAS, UH, HUGE POTENTIAL, BUT WILL BE PULLED ALONG BY, UH, BLUE HYDROGEN AND CARBON SEQUESTRATION THAT WILL BEGIN TO DRIVE THE DEMAND THAT WILL ALLOW, UH, THE POLE, AND THAT WILL ALLOW THE PRICE OF HYDROGEN, UH, TO COME DOWN TO LEVELS, WHICH, UH, WILL MAKE, WILL MAKE SENSE.
OTHER COMMENTS ON, ON THE, THE COST OR PRICE? 45 V IMPLICATIONS? YEAH, SO THE, SO 45 V THE TAX CREDITS WILL AFFECT THE, THE COST FOR SURE, AND THERE'S A LOT OF QUESTION LIKE, SHOULD WE COMPARE THE COST OF HYDROGEN WITH THE COST OF NATURAL GAS OR THE COST OF COAL, OR COST OF GASOLINE, OR WHATEVER YOUR METRIC IS.
AND I THINK THE WAY WE SHOULD THINK ABOUT IT IS IT'S NOT NECESSARILY, UM, THE COST OF HYDROGEN VERSUS NATURAL GAS, FOR EXAMPLE, BECAUSE WE USE NATURAL GAS TODAY AS BASE LOAD, AND I THINK MOST PEOPLE IMAGINE HYDROGEN, IF IT'S USED FOR POWER GENERATION, WOULD NOT BE FOR BASELOAD.
BUT FOR THOSE TIMES WHEN YOU DON'T HAVE OTHER OPTIONS AVAILABLE, AND AT THOSE TIMES, ENERGY'S MUCH MORE EXPENSIVE.
SO YOU CAN COMPARE IT TO PEAK TIMES, FOR EXAMPLE, OR YOU COMPARE IT TO THE COST OF WHAT IT WOULD TAKE TO BUILD ENOUGH BATTERIES OR WHEN A SOLAR TO FILL THAT PURPOSE, THAT KIND, SO THAT, THAT COST COMPARISON BECOMES VERY IMPORTANT.
HAVING SAID THAT, HYDROGEN COSTS ARE PROJECTED TO COME DOWN FOR A VARIETY OF REASONS.
THE TAX CREDITS HAVE ALREADY TRIGGERED A LOT OF COMMITMENTS TO SUPPLY A LOT OF HYDROGEN, AND THERE'S NOT VERY MUCH DEMAND TO MATCH THE SUPPLY.
SO WE'RE GONNA HAVE AN OVERSUPPLY SCENARIO FOR AT LEAST A LITTLE WHILE.
PRICES MIGHT BE QUITE LOW ACTUALLY.
AND GENERALLY SPEAKING, SOCIETY HAS A WAY OF FINDING, UM, A PURPOSE FOR THINGS THAT ARE CHEAP.
SO IF THERE'S A LOT OF CHEAP HYDROGEN ON THE MARKET, WE'LL FIND A WAY TO USE IT.
BUT I, I THINK THAT THERE'LL BE A LOT OF SUPPLY THAT'S MADE, PROBABLY FIRST FOR CHEMICALS, AS YOU ALREADY HEARD, IT'S VERY VALUABLE AS A BUILDING BLOCK FOR CHEMICALS THEN FOR THOSE HARD TO ELECTRIFY SECTORS, SAY INDUSTRIAL HEAT, SOME OF THE THINGS THAT WE HEARD EARLIER FROM ABBEY, INDUSTRIAL HEAT AVIATION, THAT KIND OF THING.
SO THERE'LL BE A MARKET OUT THERE AND THE PRICES WILL COME DOWN.
I DON'T KNOW IF IT'LL EVER BE CHEAPER THAN GASOLINE, ALTHOUGH IF YOU GET HYDROGEN, I THINK ABOUT LIKE HYDROGEN IN KILOGRAMS, A KILOGRAM OF HYDROGEN HAS ABOUT THE ENERGY CONTENT OF A GALLON OF GASOLINE.
GASOLINE TODAY, WAS IT THREE BUCKS A GALLON OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT.
AND SO IF YOU CAN GET HYDROGEN DOWN TO $3 A KILOGRAM, YOU'RE CHEAPER THAN GASOLINE.
THE PROJECTIONS I SEE, I WEAR A VARIETY OF HATS, BUT I GET ACCESS TO SEE FUTURE PRICE CURVES FOR SOME OF THIS IS DOWN TO 60 CENTS TO A DOLLAR 50 FOR HYDROGEN.
SO HYDROGEN, DESPITE WHAT I SAID, WHERE IT MIGHT NOT MATTER, IT MIGHT BE A WHOLE LOT CHEAPER THAN GASOLINE FOR SURE.
UM, IT LOOKS LIKE IT'LL BE CHEAPER THAN NATURAL GAS AS WELL, DEPENDING ON HOW WE PRODUCE IT.
IT WILL DEPEND ON THE INPUT COST AND EVERYTHING ELSE.
IF YOU TAKE AWAY THE TAX CREDITS THAT ARE STILL SOME PATHWAYS WHERE IT ENDS UP BEING CHEAPER, EVEN WITHOUT THE TAX CREDITS, AND I THINK FOR SURE, LIKE AUSTIN ENERGY'S GONNA BE VERY PRICE SENSITIVE.
AND IF I COULD JUST ADD TO THAT, WE'VE, WE'VE TALKED A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THE CLEAN HYDROGEN PRODUCTION TAX CREDIT FROM THE IRS.
UH, WE TOUCHED BRIEFLY ON THE, THE DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY AND THEIR HYDROGEN HUB INVESTMENT, WHICH DANA KNOWS ALL ABOUT.
BUT, UH, $7 BILLION INVESTMENT ACROSS THE US.
THERE'S SEVEN DIFFERENT REGIONAL HUBS, ONE OF THEM HERE IN THE TEXAS GULF COAST.
UM, I WAS LOOKING AT THEIR, I GUESS, DREAM, UH, ON A, ON A COST PERSPECTIVE, THEY'D LIKE TO GET TO $1 PER KILOGRAM, SO, UH, FOR HYDROGEN.
SO THAT'S, UH, THAT'S THEIR TARGET, AND WE'LL SEE IF THEY GET THERE
[01:30:01]
BY WHAT DATE.UH, THEY DID NOT, UH, SPECIFY.
AT LEAST I DIDN'T SEE IT A DECADE.
THERE'S A, YEAH, SO I THINK ABOUT A, ABOUT A DECADE.
IT'S ABOUT A DOLLAR, ABOUT A DECADE, SO SOME WIGGLE ROOM IN THERE.
NEXT, UM, ANOTHER TOPIC THAT'S VERY, UH, IMPORTANT FOR THE, THE HYDROGEN HUBS, UM, RELATED TO SOCIAL EQUITY.
UM, AND, AND PAT, MAYBE I'LL COME TO, TO YOU FOR THIS ONE FIRST.
UM, WHAT ARE SOME OF THE KEY CONSIDERATIONS FOR ENSURING SOCIAL EQUITY AS WE THINK ABOUT THE POTENTIAL FOR HYDROGEN AS A POSSIBLE PATH TO CARBON FREE BY 2035? YEAH, I APPRECIATE THIS QUESTION.
UM, UH, I THINK THERE'S, THERE'S A NUMBER OF THINGS THAT WE WANT TO THINK ABOUT.
UH, ONE THING, YOU KNOW, THAT WE'VE TALKED REPEATEDLY ABOUT TONIGHT IS, IS ANY, UM, INCREASE IN NOX EMISSIONS OR OTHER, OTHER, YOU KNOW, KIND OF CUMULATIVE POLLUTION BURDENS ON, ON COMMUNITIES THAT ARE AT THE FRONT LINES OF THESE FACILITIES.
UM, SO THAT'S ONE THING, UH, TO TAKE INTO ACCOUNT AS WELL IS JUST LIKE THE GENERAL SAFETY OF HAVING HYDROGEN INFRASTRUCTURE LOCATED, UM, IN A COMMUNITY.
UH, I THINK WHAT WE'VE SEEN THROUGH, LIKE IN THE, THROUGH THE HYDROGEN HUBS PROCESS WHERE THERE WAS SUPPOSED TO BE, UM, YOU KNOW, VERY MEANINGFUL AND ROBUST COMMUNITY ENGAGEMENT, UM, SOMETIMES THERE WAS NOT A LOT OF TRANSPARENCY IN THAT PROCESS.
AND I THINK WE REALLY NEED TO SEE TRANSPARENCY IN, IN THE PROCESS OF, OF THIS KIND OF ENGAGEMENT BECAUSE IT'S NEW FOR SO MANY FOLKS AND THEY DON'T KNOW WHAT IT IS.
UM, A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE VERY SKEPTICAL JUST OFF THE BAT, UM, ESPECIALLY COMMUNITIES THAT HAVE ALREADY, YOU KNOW, BEEN OVERBURDENED WITH POLLUTION ARE ALREADY SUBJECT TO, TO GAS PLANTS AND OTHER FACILITIES, UM, THAT, THAT ARE, THAT ARE CAUSING IMPACTS ON THEM.
SO, YOU KNOW, WE'RE REALLY LOOKING FOR STRONG, MEANINGFUL ENGAGEMENT, MAKING SURE THIS ISN'T JUST LIKE A BOX CHECKING EXERCISE, SAYING LIKE, OH YEAH, WE TALKED TO THE COMMUNITY, IT'S GOOD NOW, YOU KNOW, LIKE, WE DID THE THING THAT WE WERE SUPPOSED TO, BUT THAT IT'S A ROBUST PROCESS.
THERE'S EDUCATION, THERE'S TECHNICAL ASSISTANCE, UM, THERE'S ACTUALLY THE OPPORTUNITY TO PARTICIPATE IN DECISION MAKING, UM, AND THAT THERE'S COMMUNITY BENEFIT PLANS THAT ACTUALLY TALK ABOUT BENEFITS AND PROTECTIONS FOR THE COMMUNITY'S HEALTH, UH, AND SAFETY, UM, THE WORKER PROTECTIONS FOR FOLKS WORKING AT FACILITIES, MAKE SURE THERE'S HIGH ROAD LABOR STANDARDS, THINGS LIKE THAT.
UM, AND, YOU KNOW, KIND OF GETTING INTO A LOT OF STUFF THAT, THAT ARE BEING CONSIDERED.
BUT I, I, ALL OF IT IS TO SAY LIKE, IT'S REALLY IMPERATIVE THAT WE DON'T JUST LIKE FORCE NEW INFRASTRUCTURE ON COMMUNITIES AND TELL 'EM IT'S GOOD FOR THEM JUST BECAUSE LIKE THE EMISSIONS IS LOWER.
AND, UM, THAT'S A SUPER IMPORTANT PART OF, PART OF ALL OF IT.
BUT LIKE, WE DON'T WANT TO JUST GET IN THAT CASE WHERE WE'RE TELLING COMMUNITIES LIKE, THIS IS GOOD FOR YOU.
UM, AND WE'VE SEEN THAT WITH SO MANY OTHER TECHNOLOGIES OVER THE TIME.
SO, UM, LIKE I SAID, I THINK EDUCATION AND LONG, ROBUST, MEANINGFUL ENGAGEMENT FROM THE START IS SUPER IMPORTANT BECAUSE OF THE FACT THAT THIS IS A NEW THING FOR SO MANY PEOPLE AND THEY REALLY DON'T KNOW WHAT IT MEANS FOR THEIR COMMUNITY.
UM, AND THEY DESERVE TO HAVE A SAY, UH, IN, IN THE PROCESS.
OTHER COMMENTS REGARDING SOCIAL IMPLICATIONS? THE, THE, THE PROBLEM WITH ASKING QUESTIONS, LIKE, I WILL ALWAYS HAVE SOMETHING TO SAY, SO YOU COULD JUST SHUT ME UP SOMETIMES.
BUT, UM, WE, AFTER WINTER STORM YING IN FEBRUARY, 2021, MY RESEARCH GROUP PUT OUT A TRILOGY OF PAPER, SO TO SPEAK.
UH, IT'S NOT AS EXCITING AS IT SOUNDS, BUT WE DID ONE ON ENERGY, ONE ON WATER, AND ONE ON THE EQUITY IMPACTS OF THE DISRUPTION.
AND THERE, WHEN I THINK EQUITY, I THINK THERE ARE SEVERAL PARAMETERS.
ONE IS, WHO SUFFERS THE ENVIRONMENTAL IMPACTS OF THE ENERGY PRODUCTION, DISTRIBUTION AND CONSUMPTION FENCE LINE COMMUNITIES FOR AIR POLLUTION OR PEOPLE DEALING WITH THE PRODUCTION SITES OR THE DEALING WITH THE TRUCK NOISE TO MOVE AROUND OR WHATEVER IT IS.
UH, WHO GETS TO PARTICIPATE IN THE WORKFORCE? IS THE WORKFORCE GONNA BE ONE THAT'S OPEN AND ACCESSIBLE SO THAT PEOPLE CAN REAP SOME OF THE ECONOMIC BENEFITS? AND YOU MIGHT EVEN SAY WHO GETS TO PARTICIPATE IN THE ECONOMIC UPSIDE OF ENERGY, WHICH CAN INCLUDE WHO THE INVESTORS, BUT ALSO THE RATE PAYERS.
SO KEEPING ENERGY AFFORDABLE IS AN EQUITY CONSIDERATION.
AND THEN WHO SUFFERS THE CONSEQUENCES OF AN UNRELIABLE SYSTEM? AND OUR EQUITIES PAPER SHOWED THAT POORER MARGINALIZED COMMUNITIES SUFFER THE MOST WHEN THE POWER GOES OUT BECAUSE THEY DON'T HAVE A RANCH TO GO TO OR A BACKUP GENERATOR, YOU NAME IT.
AND SO WHEN WE HAVE EQUITY CONSIDERATIONS, THE AIR POLLUTION'S A BIG DEAL.
AIR POLLUTION FOR FENCE LINE COMMUNITY IS A HUGE DEAL.
THE TRUCK NOISE AND ALL THE DISRUPTION TO NEIGHBORHOODS FROM ROADS GETTING TORN UP IS A HUGE ISSUE.
BUT, UH, IF WE OPEN UP MORE OPPORTUNITIES BY DIVERSIFYING WHAT KIND OF FORMS OF ENERGY WE HAVE, WE OPEN UP MORE JOB OPPORTUNITIES IN MORE PLACES, WHICH IS AN EQUITY BENEFIT.
AND IF WE CAN DO IT THE RIGHT WAY SO THE GRID'S MORE RELIABLE, THAT HAS EQUITY BENEFIT AS WELL.
SO I THINK I AGREE WITH EVERYTHING WE JUST HEARD FROM THE PRIOR SPEAKER, BUT I, I THINK FROM PAT, BUT THERE'S OTHER ELEMENTS TO EQUITY TO HAVE IN MIND AS WELL, IN TERMS OF AFFORDABILITY AND RELIABILITY AND WHO GETS TO PARTICIPATE IN THE ECONOMIC UPSIDE.
I WOULD JUST ADD TO THE, UM, CREATION OF, OF OPPORTUNITIES FOR, FOR NEW WORKERS.
GOING BACK TO THE 45 V TAX CREDIT, UM,
[01:35:01]
KIND OF THE, THE BASE BASED ON THE CARBON INTENSITY OF THE HYDROGEN GOES UP TO A MAXIMUM OF 60 CENTS PER, UH, PER KILOGRAM FOR, FOR THE HYDROGEN.UH, BUT THERE ARE PREVAILING WAGE AND APPRENTICESHIP MULTIPLIERS THAT TAKES THAT 60 CENTS ALL THE WAY UP TO THE $3, WHICH IS THE MAX $3 PER KILOGRAM.
SO, UH, VERY, VERY STRONG INCENTIVES BUILT INTO THAT PROGRAM TO INCENTIVIZE THE, UH, THE CREATION OF THESE APPRENTICESHIP OPPORTUNITIES AND MAKING SURE THAT THEY'RE GETTING PAID THE PREVAILING WAGE.
UM, ONE, ONE LAST, UH, KIND OF PREPARED QUESTION FOR OUR PANEL, AND THEN I WOULD LOVE TO OPEN UP TO THE COMMISSION FOR ADDITIONAL, UM, QUESTIONS AND COMMENTS.
UM, AND THAT IS, UM, WE'VE BEEN TALKING A LOT ABOUT HYDROGEN, UM, BUT, BUT REALLY THE GOAL HERE IS, IS, UH, TO FUEL LOCAL DISPATCHABLE GENERATION, UH, FOR CARBON FREE, UH, CARBON FREE 2035.
WHAT ARE SOME ALTERNATIVES THAT WE COULD BE THINKING ABOUT, UH, TO, TO HYDROGEN THAT COULD FUEL LOCAL DISPATCHABLE GENERATION TO BECOME CARBON FREE BY 2035? AND THIS COULD BE OPEN TO THE FULL PANEL.
I MEAN, IF WE'RE, WE'RE HEARING, SO THE, THERE ARE SOME OBVIOUS OPTIONS AVAILABLE TODAY, WHICH ARE WIND AND SOLAR AND WE BUILT A LOT AND WE SHOULD BUILD A LOT MORE, THERE'S A LOT MORE ROOM FOR WIND AND SOLAR ACROSS TEXAS FOR SURE.
THERE'S NOT MUCH ROOM FOR WIND IN AUSTIN, BUT ROOFTOP SOLAR IN AUSTIN'S A GREAT OPPORTUNITY AND PROBABLY WE SHOULD PROLIFERATE BATTERIES MANY PLACES.
SO TODAY THE ANSWER IS WIND, SOLAR, AND BATTERIES.
AND MOVING FORWARD WE'LL HAVE MORE OPTIONS INCLUDING HYDROGEN TURBINES AS WE'RE TALKING ABOUT GEOTHERMAL OR NUCLEAR.
THOSE ARE THE TYPICAL LOW CARBON OPTIONS, ALL OF WHICH HAD DIFFERENT TRADE-OFFS OR BENEFITS AND DISBENEFITS.
AND THE, THE CHALLENGES I SEE MOVING FORWARD FROM MY, WHERE MY GRID RELIABILITY HAT.
SO WE DID A LONG A LARGE GRID RELIABILITY STUDY FOR ERCOT SEVERAL YEARS AGO.
AND, AND FOR AUSTIN ENERGY AND FOR OTHER SERVICE AREAS, AS WE BUILD MORE POWER GENERATION BACKING UP TO LIKE THE LEAST REGRETS SEQUENCE OF HOW TO DECARBONIZE, THE FIRST THING YOU SHOULD DO IS EFFICIENCY AS AGGRESSIVELY AS YOU CAN.
THE SECOND IS TO DECARBONIZE THE POWER SECTOR AND ELECTRIFY AS MUCH AS YOU CAN.
THEN USE CLEAN MOLECULES FOR WHATEVER IS DIFFICULT OR IMPOSSIBLE TO ELECTRIFY AND THEN DO CARBON MANAGEMENT FOR THE REST.
SO THAT'S KIND OF THE SEQUENCE YOU MIGHT GO THROUGH.
SO WE GOTTA KEEP DOING EFFICIENCY AND LOW CARBON ELECTRICITY WHEREVER WE CAN AND WE SHOULD BUILD OUT A LOT OF WIND AND SOLAR AS WE HAVE BEEN.
WE SHOULD CONTINUE DOING THAT.
BUT THERE ARE TWO SEVERE ROADBLOCKS YOU HIT WITH LARGE SCALE WIND AND SOLAR IN TEXAS AT UTILITY SCALE.
ONE IS TRANSMISSION CONGESTION.
WE CANNOT BUILD TRANSMISSION NEARLY AS QUICKLY AS THE POWER PLANTS THEMSELVES FOR A VARIETY OF PERMITTING AND POLICY AND CULTURAL REASONS.
AND THE OTHER IS SOMETHING CALLED ROTATIONAL INERTIA.
WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT THE GRID, YOU WANNA MAKE SURE YOU HAVE ENOUGH ENERGY TO MEET DEMAND, BUT ALSO YOU NEED TO MAINTAIN THE FREQUENCY OF THE GRID, WHICH WE DO THROUGH ROTATIONAL INERTIA.
ROTATIONAL INERTIA IS THESE ROTATING MACHINES, THESE TURBINE MACHINES, THESE GAS TURBINES AND OTHER MACHINES THAT ROTATE, THAT MAINTAIN THE FREQUENCY OF THE GRID.
AND WE DID A STUDY ON THIS FOR ERCOT WHERE IF YOU RAMP UP ON THINGS LIKE SOLAR PANELS, WHICH DON'T ROTATE OR THINGS LIKE WIND TURBINES THAT ROTATE, BUT ASYNCHRONOUSLY, YOU GET A ROTATIONAL INERTIA PROBLEM, THE FREQUENCY OF THE GRID COLLAPSES.
SO YOU HAVE TO HAVE ROTATING MACHINES TO MAINTAIN THE INERTIA OF THE GRID AND THE ROTATING MACHINE ROTATING MACHINES THAT ARE SYNCHRONOUS, WHICH DOES NOT INCLUDE WIND OR SOLAR, THAT MEANS GEOTHERMAL, HYDROELECTRIC STEAM TURBINES LIKE NUCLEAR OR GAS OR HYDROGEN TURBINES.
AND SO IF WE THINK ABOUT THE ENVIRONMENTAL BENEFITS, HAVING A GRID THAT WORKS AND THE EQUITY BENEFITS A GRID THAT WORKS ROTATIONAL NOURISHING, YOU ADD THAT IN AND YOU ADD IN TRANSMISSION CONGESTION, YOU WANT ROTATING MACHINES THAT AVOID TRANSMISSION, WHICH MEANS ROTATING MACHINES THAT ARE INSIDE THE AUSTIN ENERGY SERVICE AREA OR WHATEVER.
AND AMONG THE ROTATING MACHINES, IT'S KIND OF HYDROGEN, GEOTHERMAL OR NUCLEAR.
WE DON'T HAVE GOOD GEOTHERMAL RESOURCES HERE, SO IT'S NOT GONNA BE GEOTHERMAL.
I DON'T THINK AUSTIN WANTS SMALL MODULE REACTORS INSIDE AUSTIN.
SO YOUR OPTION SET ACTUALLY NARROWS DOWN PRETTY QUICKLY, I WOULD SAY.
SO THAT'S A, A WAY TO THINK ABOUT IT IN TERMS OF RELIABILITY AND WHAT ARE YOUR LOW CARBON OPTIONS.
THERE, THERE ARE ONLY SO MANY OPTIONS.
AND THE BIGGEST AND BEST ONE FOR NOW IS WHEN IN SOLAR, AND WE SHOULD BUILD A LOT MORE OF THAT, BUT IT DOESN'T SOLVE THE ROTATIONAL INERTIA OR TRANSMISSION CONGESTION PROBLEMS. I LOVE THE, I LOVE THE TERM INERTIA 'CAUSE THAT'S, UH, IT'S EXACTLY ONE OF THE BENEFITS OF, OF GAS TURBINES.
I THINK ONE OF THE, THE, CERTAINLY AS WE BRING MORE MASSIVE, UH, INSTALLATIONS OF SOLAR AND WIND, UH, THE PROVERBIAL DUCK CURVE, WHICH, UH, WAS MADE FAMOUS, I THINK IN CALIFORNIA, I THINK IN HERE IN TEXAS, IT'S THE DEAD ARMADILLO CURVE.
I COINED THAT I WANT LET THE REC, I COINED THAT PHRASE AND I, I WANT CREDIT, SO I WASN'T PAID, OKAY, I WASN'T PAID FOR THAT
SO, UM, BUT AS THAT HAPPENS AND WE DEAL WITH THE CONGESTION ISSUES, UH, WHICH WE WILL HAVE, I, I THINK, UH, EVEN SUN ZAYA, UH, PROBABLY PROCEEDED THIS WAS A TRANSMISSION, UH, FROM NEW MEXICO THROUGH INTO WILL EVENTUALLY BE TO CALIFORNIA.
[01:40:01]
UH, TOOK, UH, UH, I DON'T KNOW, MAYBE A DECADE.I THINK THERE'S SOME PROJECTS THAT ARE MOVING FORWARD, UH, THAT ARE 17 YEARS IN THE MAKING.
UH, IN TERMS OF GETTING TRANSMISSION, I THINK WE'VE SEEN THE ISSUE IN, UH, FOR BOSTON AND MASSACHUSETTS WHERE THERE'S LEGAL, UH, ISSUES GOING FROM HYDRO QUEBEC THROUGH MAINE AND THEY DIDN'T WANT THE NEW TRANSMISSION COMING THROUGH MAINE.
SO THE ISSUE IS, I THINK LOCALITY, UH, BEING LOCAL WITH, UH, THE OPPORTUNITY TO DEAL WITH THE INERTIA.
UH, AND THAT'S WHY I THINK THE BENEFIT, UH, OF THE GAS TURBINES AND, YOU KNOW, BRINGING ON NEW GENERATION IS ONE THING, PARTICULARLY SINCE MOST OF WHAT WE'RE SEEING TODAY ARE THE ULTRA LARGE, MASSIVE, UH, PIECES OF EQUIPMENT AS OPPOSED TO WHAT WE ALREADY HAVE INSTALLED TODAY.
I WOULD ALSO ARGUE THE OTHER OPPORTUNITY IS AT EXISTING POWER PLANTS WHERE THERE IS GRIDS, YOU CAN MOVE THESE GAS TURBINES.
THEY ARE NOT, THEY'RE ON CONCRETE FOUNDATIONS, BUT YOU CAN UNDO THE BOLTS.
UH, AND UH, THERE'S A LOT OF MOVEMENT OF THESE ENERGY DEVICE CONVERSION DEVICES AROUND THE COUNTRY IN ANTICIPATION OF WHERE'S THE HYDROGEN? WHERE CAN I INCREMENTALLY BRING THIS POWER AND FUTURE PROOF IT WITH TECHNOLOGY, UH, AS HYDROGEN BECOMES MORE AFFORDABLE, BUT MORE IMPORTANTLY TO PROVIDE THE BALANCING.
SO, UH, FOR THAT, UH, FOR THE THE ISSUES.
CAN I JUST NOTE ON THE SCREEN, CABO HAD A QUESTION, I THINK IT WAS FROM, FOR MICHAEL WEBER.
WHAT ABOUT SYNCHRONOUS CONDENSERS? IS THAT A SOLUTION? CAN YOU DO THAT LOCALLY? YEAH, SO THERE YOU, UM, IF WE THINK OF LIKE ROTATIONAL INERTIA IN ROTATING MACHINES, YOU CAN DO IT SYNTHETICALLY WITH SYNTHETIC INVERTERS OR DIFFERENT THINGS.
IF, UH, PUT SOME NUMBER, IT'S WEIRD UNITS, UNITS ARE LIKE GIGAWATTS PER HERTZ OF INERT.
SO THE, THE UNITS ARE WHERE, BUT A GAS TURBINE GIVES YOU FIVE AND A HALF UNITS OF INERTIA.
A STEAM TURBINE GIVES YOU ABOUT FOUR UNITS OF INERTIA, AND THE HIGHER THE NUMBER THE BETTER.
FROM AN INERTIA PERSPECTIVE, A GAS OR HYDROGEN TURBINE IS FIVE AND A HALF STEAM TURBINE IS LIKE FOUR, WHICH IS USING HOT WATER, WHICH YOU CAN GET FROM NUCLEAR OR GEOTHERMAL, WHATEVER.
A HYDROELECTRIC TURBINE'S LIKE TWO SYNTHETIC INERTIA GIVES YOU LIKE ONE.
SO YOU CAN U YOU CAN HAVE SYNTHETIC INVERTERS LIKE, UH, AND MOST MODERN SOLAR PANEL FARMS HAVE THEM.
YEAH, THE OLD, THE OLD ONES DON'T.
AND SO YOU CAN DO DIGITAL SWITCHING, THAT KIND OF THING, AND YOU, YOU CAN GET A LOT OF PROGRESS THERE.
AND IN AUSTIN YOU WOULDN'T DO IT LIKE FOR ROOFTOP STUFF, BUT YOU COULD DO IT AT UTILITY SCALE FARM.
SO YOU MIGHT SOLVE SOME OF YOUR INERTIA PROBLEMS. YOU MIGHT OR MIGHT NOT SOLVE A TRANSMISSION CONGESTION.
YOU, I ALSO SUSPECT, BUT DAVE TUTTLE WITH THE PC ELECTRICAL DRAIN, CORRECT ME IF I'M WRONG THERE, YOU COULD POTENTIALLY DO THIS.
ON THE DEMAND SIDE, THERE ARE ROTATING MACHINES ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE METER, UH, IN FACT MOST ELECTRICITY TO ROTATE SOMETHING LIKE A COMPRESSOR AND AN AIR CONDITIONER OR A MOTOR OR SOMETHING.
SO I WONDER, AS A DUMB MECHANICAL ENGINEER, AND I USE WRENCHES, BUT ELECTRICAL ENGINEERS LIKE DAVE USE IMAGINARY NUMBERS, WHICH IS WHAT WE USE FOR THREE PHASE POWER.
SO I, I DON'T KNOW IF THAT'S TRUE, BUT THERE, THERE ARE OTHER SOLUTIONS BEYOND ROTATING A TURBINE CHALLENGE WILL BE COMMUNICATING AND CONTROLLING ALL THOSE DISTRIBUTED ONES.
SO IT'S HARD IF IT'S DISTRIBUTED, IT'S HARD AND IF IT'S BEHIND THE METER IT'S DOUBLY HARD.
THANK YOU CYRUS, FOR, FOR FLAGGING THE QUESTION.
OTHER, UH, CLOSING COMMENTS REGARDING KEY, UM, ALTERNATIVES TO HYDROGEN? SURE, I CAN, I CAN GO AND CERTAINLY AGREE WITH EVERYTHING DR. WEBER SAID ABOUT BUILDING SOLAR AND WIND AS AS POSSIBLE.
UM, THINGS LIKE DISTRIBUTED GENERATION, DEMAND RESPONSE, ENERGY EFFICIENCY, ALL OF THOSE, UH, NEW TECHNOLOGIES, YOU KNOW, THAT DOE IS WORKING HARD ON LIKE VIRTUAL POWER PAN PLANTS AND USING EV BATTERIES AND THINGS LIKE THAT TO HELP WITH THE GRID.
UM, YOU KNOW, I ALSO JUST WANTED TO TO MENTION, UM, 'CAUSE
UH, BUT THE REALLY COOL THING ABOUT IT WAS THAT, UM, YOU KNOW, THIS NEW PLANT THAT JUST CAME ONLINE A FEW MONTHS AGO, UH, BASICALLY, UM, IT IS HELPING WITH GRID BALANCING, BUT IT'S ALSO HELPING WITH THAT SYNTHETIC INERTIA ISSUE AND HELPING TO UM, YOU KNOW, KIND OF WITH THIS FREQUENCY MODULATION THAT THE COAL, THE COAL PLANT USED TO BE RESPONSIBLE FOR.
UM, SO IT'S JUST AN EXCITING THING TO SEE LIKE THIS NEW, UM, UH, THE BATTERIES ARE GETTING MORE AND MORE ADVANCED EVERY DAY, BASICALLY.
UH, AND, AND THEY ARE A GREAT OPTION AND THEY'RE BECOMING EVEN BETTER OPTIONS AT DEALING WITH A LOT OF THESE PROBLEMS THAT WE DIDN'T THINK MAYBE, UH, A FEW YEARS AGO THEY WERE GONNA BE CAPABLE OF DOING.
SO JUST WANTED TO POINT THAT OUT 'CAUSE I THOUGHT IT WAS, UH, A REALLY INTERESTING AND COOL PROJECT, UM, COMING ONLINE HANDLING, UH, A BUNCH OF ISSUES THAT, THAT
[01:45:01]
JUST A FEW YEARS AGO PEOPLE SAID COULDN'T BE DONE BY BATTERIES, UM, AND COULD NOT BE USED TO REPLACE, UH, FOSSIL FUELS IN THE SYSTEM.UM, QUESTIONS FROM THE, THE COMMISSION? EVERYONE? UM, SO THE TRANSMISSION CONGESTION, UM, BEFORE TEXAS BECAME, UM, ANTI RENEWABLE, UH, WE PRIDED OURSELVES ON BEING THE, IN THE FOREFRONT OF WIND GENERATION AND BUILDING OUT THOSE TRANSMISSION LINES HUNDREDS, IF NOT THOUSANDS OF MILES OF TRANSMISSION IN TEXAS.
AND WE DID IT FAIRLY QUICKLY ONCE WE GOT THE SYSTEM IN PLACE.
WHAT'S IT GONNA TAKE TO GET THE, THE, OUR GOVERNMENT TO OUR, TO BACK OFF ON THIS NOTION THAT WE SHOULDN'T BE BUILDING TRANSMISSION FOR, UM, RELIABILITY AND TO, TO BACK AWAY FROM THE CONGESTION ISSUES WE'VE GOT, I'VE GOT A LOT OF THOUGHTS, BUT I'M OFTEN WRONG WHEN IT COMES TO POLITICS.
I HEAVILY DISCOUNT EVERYTHING I'M ABOUT TO SAY, BUT DESPITE IT ALL, TEXAS IS STILL BUILDING TRANSMISSION FASTER THAN JUST ABOUT ANYWHERE I BELIEVE.
I MEAN, I THINK IT COULD BE FASTER AND I'D LIKE TO SEE IT GO FASTER 'CAUSE I THINK IT DOES UNLOCK A LOT OF THE WIND AND SOLAR WE NEED.
UM, SO I'D SAY, BUT WE'RE STILL ACTUALLY DOING PRETTY WELL AND MOST STATES COME HERE AND SAY, HOW DO YOU GUYS DO IT SO QUICKLY? SO WE'RE STILL THE ROLE MODEL AND PERHAPS THAT'S BECAUSE THE COMPETITION IS SO BAD, BUT WE WE'RE STILL BUILDING IT, I THINK WHAT IT TAKES TO GET THE KIND OF BIPARTISAN CONSENSUS WE HAD BEFORE.
SO IT WAS A BIPARTISAN CONSENSUS MOSTLY BETWEEN URBAN DEMOCRATS WHO WANTED CLEANER POWER AND RURAL REPUBLICANS WHO WANTED THE ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT.
SO IT WAS A PRETTY GOOD COMING TOGETHER.
I THINK IT'LL BE THE SAME COALITION FOR A VARIETY OF ENVIRONMENTAL ECONOMIC REASONS.
AND THAT SAME COALITION STOPPED MOST OF THE AGGRESSIVE ANTI RENEWABLE BILLS ALSO IS COLLABORATING ON EDUCATION, OTHER ISSUES, WHICH IS KIND OF FASCINATING.
SO I THINK, UM, MONEY TALKS AND THE, IF WE SEE HOW MUCH MONEY THE TRANSMISSION SAVES FOR THE CONSUMERS, HOW MUCH MONEY IT MAKES FOR THE LANDOWNERS AND HOW MUCH WATER IN POLLUTION IT AVOIDS FOR OUR WATERSHEDS IN AIRSHEDS, I THINK WE'LL GET THERE.
AND FRANKLY, WE KIND OF ARE, DESPITE THE RHETORIC, ALTHOUGH I THINK WE GOTTA PICK UP THE PACE.
IF YOU, IF I, I'M REALLY HESITANT TO QUOTE ELON MUSK FOR ALL SORTS OF REASONS, BUT I GOT TO HEAR HIM SPEAK TWICE THIS PAST YEAR IN A COUPLE, UH, SESSIONS WHERE HE WAS SPEAKING TO CEOS, UTILITIES, HE'S BASICALLY TELLING UTILITIES THE DEMAND FOR ELECTRICITY'S GOING TO GROW A LOT FASTER THAN YOU THINK.
PLEASE BUILD MORE, MORE QUICKLY.
LIKE WE, YOU'VE GOT NO IDEA HOW MANY TESLAS I'M GONNA SELL AND THIS KIND OF THING.
AND I THINK HE'S BASICALLY RIGHT THAT THE DEMAND FOR POWER WILL DOUBLE AND THAT DEMAND FOR KILOWATT HOURS OR ENERGY IS GONNA TRIPLE IN THE NEXT DECADE OR TWO.
WE GOTTA BUILD A LOT OF STUFF.
AND IF WE HAVE THESE BOTTLENECKS TO TRANSMISSION, THAT MEANS WE HAVE TO COME UP WITH MORE LOCAL SOURCES.
WE'VE TOP SOLAR, HYDROGEN PLANT, WHATEVER IT IS, WE NEED TO SEE WHAT THE LIST OF LOCAL SOURCES ARE.
'CAUSE I DON'T THINK WE CAN BUILD THE WIRES AND POLES FAST ENOUGH.
OTHER QUESTIONS? I JUST HAVE ONE.
SO IN NATURAL GAS, I THINK THEY USE AN ODORANT OR CAPTAIN.
SO WHAT'S GONNA BE PUT IN HYDROGEN IN THE HYDROGEN PIPELINE SO YOU CAN AT LEAST SMELL IT RADIUS? THE DANGERS? YEAH, SO THE, IS LIKE THE METHYL OR CAPTAIN THE ODOR.
SO NATURAL GAS DOESN'T HAVE A SMELL UNLESS YOU'RE IN A VERY SULFUR RICH FIELD OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT.
SO THE ODORANT ADDED FOR SAFETY REASONS, I DON'T THINK THEY'RE GONNA ADD AN ODORANT FOR HYDROGEN AND I DON'T THINK THEY'RE GONNA USE IT FOR RESIDENTIAL PURPOSES THAT ODORANTS FOR RESIDENCES AND FOR CITY USES AT THE LARGE INDUSTRIAL FACILITIES, THEY DON'T ADD IT BECAUSE IT CHANGES THE CHEMISTRY.
SO IF YOU THINK OF LIKE A POWER PLANT OR A CHEMICAL FACILITY, THE LARGE USERS OF HYDROGEN, THEY PROBABLY WILL HAVE HYDROGEN SENSORS EVERYWHERE.
IF YOU WANT TO TAKE HYDROGEN TO OUR HOMES WHERE THE SAFETY RISKS ARE HIGHER THAN FOR NATURAL GAS BECAUSE IT'S MORE FLAMMABLE AND LEAKY, THEN WE WOULD HAVE TO ADD AN ODORANT.
BUT I SUS I, I KIND OF DOUBT THAT'S GONNA HAPPEN FRANKLY.
AND, AND FOR LIKE A LARGE POWERPOINT FACILITY, PROBABLY YOU WOULD NOT DO IT.
NUMBER ONE I ASK BEFORE I WAS JUST INTERESTED ON THIS PANEL, UH, HYDROGEN FUEL CELL TECHNOLOGY.
IS THAT, IS THAT A POTENTIAL USE AS OPPOSED TO, UH, BURNING IT IN A COMBINED CYCLE? WHAT'S YOUR THOUGHT ON THAT? AND THEN I WAS JUST CURIOUS WHETHER THIS PANEL AND I, UM, I I GUESS I'LL EXCLUDE THE PERSON FROM AUSTIN ENERGY HAD SEEN THE 2026 HYDROGEN CAPABLE COMBINED CYCLE AUSTIN ENERGY ASSUMED CAPITAL AND VARIABLE COSTS AND WHETHER YOU THOUGHT THAT WAS ACTUALLY REASONABLE.
'CAUSE THAT'S ONE OF THE BIG QUESTIONS OF THE EUC AND THE WORKING GROUP IS THIS AND, AND THEY'RE, AND THEY'RE BASICALLY GIVING A COST VERY SIMILAR TO NEW GAS PLANT OF A THOUSAND TO $1,100 PER KILOWATT.
UM, I'M JUST WONDERING IF, IF YOU THINK THAT, AND YOU KNOW, SORT OF TWO YEARS FROM NOW IS THAT, ARE WE REALLY ON COURSE TO GET THOSE KIND OF, UM, COSTS FOR THESE NEW TYPES OF TURBINES THAT COULD ACTUALLY BURN A HUNDRED PERCENT HYDROGEN? SO TWO QUESTIONS, FUEL
[01:50:01]
CELLS AND THEN WHAT ARE THE EXPECTED COSTS FOR THESE NEW MACHINES THAT CAN BURN A HUNDRED PERCENT HYDROGEN? I'LL START.SO, UM, I THINK THE LARGEST, UH, UH, FUEL CELL POWER PLANT, UH, IN THE WORLD WAS COMMISSIONED I THINK AROUND 20 20, 20 20 21 IN KOREA, 49 MEGAWATTS.
UM, IT WAS A NATIONAL PROGRAM, UH, WITH THROUGH MANY OF THE, UH, CONGLOMERATES THERE, UH, CERTAINLY THE PRICE WASN'T A FACTOR.
UM, I THINK AT THE END OF THE DAY, UH, I THINK THAT'S PROBABLY THE ANSWER IS ELECTRIC, UH, OF FUEL FUEL CELLS, UH, WITH HYDROGEN.
UH, I THINK GAS TURBINES ARE A NICE BRIDGE TECHNOLOGY, PARTICULARLY IF THEY'RE ALREADY IN INSTALLED, UH, WHERE SIMPLE RETROFITS, UH, CAN BE MADE, WHICH CAN MAKE THEM FULLY, UH, 100% HYDROGEN, UH, CAPABLE.
I THINK THE NUMBER YOU HAD MENTIONED, I LOOKED AT AT SOME OF, OF THE NUMBERS, I THINK THE ANSWER IS DOUBTFUL.
UH, BECAUSE THE TECHNOLOGY, IF YOU'RE WE'RE THE ONES LOOKING AT A VERY LARGE GAS TURBINE, THE COMBUSTOR ITSELF, UH, HAS NOT BEEN INVENTED YET, UH, FOR THESE VERY LARGE MACHINES, I THINK THAT'S WHY WE SEE, UH, 50% HYDROGEN CAPABLE, UH, 75% HYDROGEN CAPABLE, BUT IT REALLY DOESN'T MATTER, UH, BECAUSE THERE'S NOT ENOUGH HYDROGEN TO, TO PROVE IT.
UH, I THINK ABBY BROUGHT UP, UH, SEVEN H 0.02.
WELL, LET'S, LET'S SPEAK ABOUT THE SEVEN H 0.03.
LET 37 TONS OF, OF HYDROGEN PER HOUR IS WHAT IT WOULD TAKE TO FULLY DECARBONIZE THAT.
SO, UH, IT'S PROBABLY, UH, NOT A NUMBER FOR THOSE, BUT ANYONE WHO IS IN THE PRODUCTION OF HYDROGEN, IT'S A BIG NUMBER.
UH, THE COMBUSTION SYSTEM, IF YOU BUY THE TURBINE TODAY, YOU WILL PAY PROBABLY THE SAME AS WHAT YOU PAID FOR A TURBINE ITSELF JUST FOR THE UPGRADE TO GET YOU 100%.
UM, THAT'S FROM, FROM AN OEM PERSPECTIVE, THERE IS A PATHWAY TO GET THERE.
IT'S JUST, IT'S VERY DIFFICULT TODAY.
UH, FROM A COST EFFECTIVENESS STANDPOINT, IF HYDROGEN IS THIS EXPENSIVE AND AFFORDABILITY IS AN ISSUE WITHOUT NECESSARILY 45 V OR WITHOUT ANY PRICE ON CARBON, UH, WHICH I THINK IS COMING WITH, UH, SECTION ONE 11 FROM THE EPA, UH, IF YOU, IF YOU WANNA GET, UH, DECARBONIZED POWER, UH, THEN UTILIZING AND MODIFYING THE EXISTING GAS TURBINES, BUT I THINK THE NUMBER IS, IS QUITE A, QUITE A WAYS OFF.
I THINK YOU CAN BUY THE CAR TODAY KNOWING THAT THERE'LL BE AN UPGRADE, UH, WITH A PRICE TBD AND PRICED AT A PREMIUM WHEN IT'S AVAILABLE.
SO, AND I ACTUALLY HAD NOT LOOKED AT THE COST AND I HAD NOT HEARD THAT.
I DON'T HAVE ANY COMMENT ON THAT, BUT I THINK FUEL CELLS ARE PRETTY INTERESTING.
SO MAYBE I'LL MAKE A COUPLE COMMENTS ON THAT.
FUEL CELLS HAVE NO MOVING PARTS, WHICH IS PRETTY USEFUL.
IT OPERATES AT A LOWER TEMPERATURE SO IT DOESN'T GENERATE, KNOCKS THE SAME WAY.
SO THEY'RE QUITE CLEAN AND THEY'RE QUIET AND THINGS LIKE THAT.
THEY TEND TO BE SMALL AND EXPENSIVE, SO THEY'RE OFTEN USED FOR LIKE HOSPITALS, DATA CENTER OR CITY HALLS.
YOU CAN DO 'EM WITH COMBINED HEAT AND POWER AS WELL.
IF THEY DO HAVE ENOUGH HEAT, IT'S NOT SO HOT, IT MAKES NITROGEN OXIDE, BUT IT'S HOT ENOUGH THAT COULD WARM YOUR HOUSE OR SOMETHING.
SO THAT'S MOST APPLICATIONS FOR FUEL CELLS.
I HAVEN'T OPERATED THEM DIRECTLY, SO I DON'T HAVE MY OWN PERSONAL OPERATIONAL EXPERIENCE, BUT PEOPLE I KNOW HAVE THEM SAY THEY'RE STILL KIND OF FINICKY BECAUSE THEY, THE GOOD NEWS IS THEY GENERATE SOMETHING CLEAN WATER, BUT THEN YOU HAVE A LOT OF WATER HANDLING PROBLEMS. SO THEY'RE PROBABLY NOT A GREAT ANSWER FOR A LARGE BULK GENERATING STATION, BUT AS A DISTRIBUTED SOLUTION COULD BE, IF YOU HAVE THE SPACE, A BASEMENT OR WHATEVER, IT COULD BE PRETTY INTERESTING.
UH, HOWEVER, USUALLY THEY'RE RUNNING OFF OF NATURAL GAS THESE DAYS, SO INSTEAD OF USING NATURAL GAS TO OP, TO SPIN A TURBINE, YOU WOULD USE NATURAL GAS AND THEN REFORM IT INTO HYDROGEN ON SITE AND THEN USE IT THAT WAY.
THAT'S LIKE THE BLOOM ENERGY FUEL CELLS OR THAT KIND OF THING.
SO YOU STILL HAVE TO WONDER WHERE YOU'RE GONNA GET YOUR HYDROGEN, BUT UM, BUT ONCE YOU HAVE HYDROGEN, YOU CAN BURN IT IN A TURBINE, YOU CAN BURN IT IN A RECIPROCATING ENGINE LIKE A DIESEL ENGINE OR YOU CAN RUN IT THROUGH A FUEL CELL.
YOU'VE GOT A VARIETY OF WAYS TO MAKE IT INTO MOTION OR ELECTRICITY DEPENDING ON WHAT'S BEST FOR YOUR FOOTPRINT AND EVERYTHING.
UM, I GUESS I JUST ALSO, UM, WANTED TO MAKE, GET A LITTLE MORE CLARITY ON PROJECTED COST FOR GREEN HYDROGEN AND I, I GUESS, UH, A SECOND, BUT RELATED QUESTION.
UM, YOU KNOW, THERE'S BEEN A LOT OF TALK ABOUT THAT THERE'S MANY DIFFERENT WAYS TO, TO MAKE HYDROGEN.
UM, AND, AND I I UNDERSTAND THAT, THAT THERE ARE MANY DIFFERENT WAYS, UH, YOU KNOW, WE DO HAVE A GOAL TO GET TO CARBON FREE HERE.
SO IF ANYBODY CAN SPEAK TO ANY OF THE OTHER METHODS THAT ARE, UH, CARBON
[01:55:01]
FREE, UH, AND THEIR COST, UM, AS WELL AS PROJECTED COST FOR FOR GREEN HYDROGEN, I'M INTERESTED IN MORE CLARITY THERE.THIS, THIS IS MICHAEL SPEAKING AGAIN.
SO I, UM, PERSONALLY I'M NOT A FAN OF HYDROGEN FROM ELECTROLYSIS WATER.
I THINK IT ENDS UP LOOKING PRETTY EXPENSIVE, ESPECIALLY FOR POWER GENERATION.
MAYBE THAT'S WORTH DOING FOR SOME ISLAND COMMUNITIES OR FOR INDUSTRIAL HEAT PURPOSES, THAT KIND OF THING.
I SUSPECT THE OTHER PATHWAYS THAT ARE CARBON FREE WILL END UP BEING CHEAPER.
PYROLYSIS IS VERY INTERESTING.
PYROLYSIS STARTS WITH METHANE.
IT SPLITS THE CARBON OUT, BUT AS A SOLID CARBON.
SO IT'S A, A CARBON BLACK, LIKE A POWDER, WHICH YOU CAN USE AS A SOIL AMENDMENT OR A BUILDING CHEMICAL OR SELL IT FOR GRAPHITE, OR WORST CASE LANDFILL IT, BUT IT DOESN'T MAKE CO2, SO YOU'RE NOT DUMPING IN THE ATMOSPHERE.
PYROLYSIS IS ALREADY OPERATING AT INDUSTRIAL SCALE.
WE ALREADY MAKE MORE HYDROGEN TODAY IN AMERICA FROM PYROLYSIS THAN ELECTROLYSIS.
UH, MONOLITH MATERIALS IN OTHER STARTUPS IN NEBRASKA MAKE THE HYDROGEN AS A BYPRODUCT.
THEY'RE ACTUALLY MAKING THE CARBON BLACK, THE GRAPHITE ESSENTIALLY, AND YOU GET THE HYDROGEN KIND OF FOR FREE.
AND SO I, I SUSPECT PYROLYSIS MIGHT BE A PRETTY HEALTHY COMPETITOR AND IT IS A CARBON FREE METHOD TO GET THE HYDROGEN, EVEN IF YOU'RE MAKING IT FROM NATURAL GAS, AS LONG AS YOU'RE NOT LEAKING TOO MUCH NATURAL GAS BEFORE THAT.
SO THE MAIN CONCERN THERE IS THE FUGITIVE EMISSION TO METHANE, THE GEOLOGIC HYDROGEN I TALKED ABOUT BEFORE.
THERE'S A STUDY CAME OUTTA STANFORD THAT TALKS ABOUT HOW IT'S, UH, SO MUCH LESS WATER INTENSIVE, LAND INTENSIVE AND DOESN'T HAVE EMISSIONS.
UH, BECAUSE IT'S NOT USING METHANE OR ELECTRICITY TO MAKE IT, YOU'RE JUST CAPTURING IT FROM THE EARTH.
THAT'S ABOUT A, A DOLLAR A KILOGRAM OR SO.
SO THERE ARE OTHER PATHWAYS TO GET HYDROGEN THAT LOOK LIKE THEY COULD BE CHEAPER AND AS CLEAN AS WIND POWERED ELECTROLYSIS.
BUT I THINK IN THE END, I GUESS THE MARKETS WILL TELL US.
I MEAN, WE DON'T, WE DON'T KNOW YET.
'CAUSE THE MARKETS ARE PRETTY FROTHY RIGHT NOW AND EVOLVING.
BUT I DO THINK THERE ARE OTHER PATHWAYS AND TO MY EYE AS AN ENGINEER, NOT A UTILITY EXECUTIVE, I WOULD SAY THERE ELECTROLYSIS IS JUST ONE OF MANY AND MIGHT BE A TOUGH FIT FOR TEXAS, FRANKLY.
CAN I ASK A FOLLOW UP? ABSOLUTELY.
UM, I SHOULD HAVE BEEN MAYBE MORE SPECIFIC BECAUSE, UH, YEAH, I DEFINITELY WOULD NOT CONSIDER ANYTHING USING NATURAL GAS TO BE CARBON FREE BECAUSE OF THE FUGITIVE EMISSIONS THAT ARE, THAT ARE SO PREVALENT.
BUT I'M CURIOUS ABOUT THE GEOLOGIC, UH, HYDROGEN.
AND, UH, THE FOLLOW UP IS JUST, ARE THOSE, DO THOSE RESOURCES EXIST IN TEXAS? IS THERE ANYTHING, UH, LOCALLY AND YEAH, I'M, I'M CURIOUS ABOUT THAT.
THERE IS SOME, IN TEXAS, THE BIGGEST RESOURCES ARE PROBABLY LIKE KANSAS AND NEBRASKA.
IT'S ALSO LIKE AUSTRALIA AND MO.
IT'S ALL OVER THE WORLD, BUT IT'S, FRANCE HAS A LOT, IT'S, UH, OMAN HAS A LOT, BUT IT'S NOT WHERE THE OIL AND GAS IS, WHICH IS INTERESTING.
SO IT'S NOT THE OIL AND GAS PATCH FOR THE MOST PART THAT MAKES IT, SO IF YOU ARE GONNA PRODUCE NATURAL HYDROGEN IN KANSAS, YOU WOULD HAVE TO THINK ABOUT HOW TO GET IT HERE.
WOULD YOU PIPE IT OR WOULD YOU CONVERT IT TO AMMONIA OR METHANOL OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT.
SO THE MAIN ISSUES THERE ARE THE, THE TRANSPORTATION RISKS, NOT THE, UH, PRODUCTION RISKS, SO TO SPEAK.
THERE IS A LITTLE BIT IN THE EAGLEFORD SHALE, BY THE WAY, BUT IT'S PRETTY LOW CONCENTRATION.
SO, UM, YOU KNOW, THIS IS A LONGER RANGE TECHNOLOGY.
ANY KIND OF VIEW ON WHEN THE A HUNDRED PERCENT CAPABLE TURBINES WOULD BE AVAILABLE OR FROM A, FROM THE BIG THREE SUPPLIERS? I THINK, UH, SOME OF THE NUMBERS, UH, I I THINK THERE WAS ONE THAT ABBY MENTIONED WAS, UH, UH, GENERAL ELECTRIC WAS SOMEWHERE AROUND 2035, I THINK.
UH, SIEMENS BEING, UH, A BIT MORE EUROCENTRIC HAD MADE A PLEDGE TO HAVE GAS TURBINES AVAILABLE FOR A HUNDRED PERCENT AROUND 2030.
UM, AND, UH, MITSUBISHI IS, UH, SOMEWHERE IN THE 2027 TO 2030 TIMEFRAME.
THE QUESTION, AND THE ANSWER IS, WHICH TURBINE? IT'S NOT GOING TO BE EVERY SINGLE TURBINE.
IT'S GOING TO BE A PARTICULAR TURBINE THAT, UH, IS FOR A PARTICULAR APPLICATION.
AND THOSE WILL BE FOR THE ULTRA LARGE $1.5 BILLION POWER PLANTS THAT'S GENERATED 1.4 GIGAWATTS OF POWER.
SO WHEN ABBEY BROUGHT UP THE 91 MILLION, UH, UH, NUMBER THAT WAS SIMPLY, UH, FOR THAT POWER PLANT, THAT ENERGY POWER PLANT, THAT WAS SIMPLY THE PIPING.
IT WAS NOT THE COMBUSTOR, THE COMBUSTOR ALREADY IT CAN, IS CAPABLE OF 30% HYDROGEN BY VOLUME, WHICH IS, UH, THE INTENT.
BUT IT WAS SOLD AS A CLEAN PROJECT.
IT DIDN'T PASS MUSTER AS ABBY SAID, BUT THEY STRIPPED OUT 91 MILLION OUT OF A $1.3 BILLION POWER PLANT, AND THEN THEY'LL GO AND REVISIT IT.
I THINK THERE ARE RETROFITS THAT
[02:00:01]
ARE AVAILABLE TODAY, UH, IN THE AFTERMARKET FOR THOSE OEM GAS TURBINES.SO THEY'RE NOT BEING DELIVERED BY THE OEMS. THEY'RE BEING RETROFITTED.
THESE ARE INSTALLED GAS TURBINES WHERE IF, UH, IF THE, IF YOU WANTED A 25 MEGAWATT OF 40 MEGAWATT, 80 MEGAWATT, OR EVEN 180 MEGAWATT PLANT, YOU COULD ORDER IT TODAY, AND BY THE TIME IT WAS IN THE GROUND, IF YOU HAD THE HYDROGEN, IT'D BE A HUNDRED PERCENT.
MORE IMPORTANTLY, FROM A FLEXIBILITY STANDPOINT, THIS WOULD BE A RETROFIT TECHNOLOGY THAT WOULD BE ABLE TO SUPPORT 100% NATURAL GAS TO 100% HYDROGEN IN ANY VARIABLE AMOUNT IN BETWEEN WITH NOX LEVELS, NO DIFFERENT THAN WHAT YOU'RE GETTING OUT OF THE EXHAUST THAT CAN BE SUPPORTED BY THE EXISTING SCR THAT'S IN THE POWER PLANT.
SO POTENTIALLY, LIKE I ASKED YOU, UH, UH, DURING OUR, OUR PREP MEETING, UH, WOULD AN AIR PERMIT NEED TO CHANGE? THE ANSWER IS IF THE NOX IS STILL COMING OUT AT TWO, UH, TWO PARTS PER MILLION, UH, IF, IF A COMBUSTOR IS ABLE TO DO THAT, BECAUSE IT'S DOING IT IN A LEAN COMBUSTION WAY, DO I NEED TO CHANGE THE PERMIT? AND THE ANSWER IS, IT DEPENDS.
UH, BUT, UH, THAT'S WHY I LIKE EXISTING TURBINES, BECAUSE YOU HAVE FLEXIBILITY FROM THE VERY SMALL ONES USED FOR PEAKING TO THAT BEING CYCLIC AND NOT HAVE TO ADDRESS THE OLYMPIC POOL QUESTION, WHICH I THINK DOES A DISSERVICE A BIT TO THE DISCUSSION.
SIMILARLY, AND THE REASON I SAY THAT IS 20 YEARS AGO, UH, SOLAR AND WIND HAD THE SAME TYPE OF ISSUES IN TERMS OF, UH, THE PROBLEMS WITH COST.
TODAY IN SAUDI ARABIA, UH, I SHOULD SAY IN DECEMBER, THEY JUST ANNOUNCED AN UNSUBSIDIZED LEVELIZED COST OF ELECTRICITY FOR SOLAR AT 1.20 CENTS PER KILOWATT INSTALLED.
SO, SO IT IT TOOK US ABOUT TWO DECADES TO GET THERE, MAYBE 25 YEARS.
SO, UH, STILL, UH, THERE IS SOME OPTIONS THERE.
SO IT ALL DEPENDS ON THE TURBINE YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT.
AND IF YOU WANNA BUY A USED ONE AND RETROFIT IT, FUTURE PROOF IT OR WAIT, UH, FOR A VERY LARGE APPLICATION, WHICH IS NOT FOR EVERYONE.
JEFF, CORRECT ME IF I'M WRONG, I BELIEVE THE JAPANESE MANUFACTURERS, TOSHIBA MITSUBISHI HAVE ANNOUNCED AMMONIA TURBINES BY 2028 OR SO, OR SOONER.
IS IT, WE'RE TALKING ABOUT HYDROGEN, BUT AMMONIA IS A HYDROGEN CARRIER THAT IT SEEMS LIKE KOREA, JAPAN, SINGAPORE, SOME SOUTHEAST ASIA COUNTRIES ARE PRIORITIZING AMMONIA, EUROPE'S PRIORITIZING HYDROGEN.
SO I THINK THE JAPANESE MANUFACTURERS SERVING THAT MARKET HAVE EARLIER DEADLINES.
IS THAT TRUE? YEAH, THAT'S, THAT'S A, THAT'S A VERY GOOD QUESTION.
I MEAN, AMMONIA'S A GREAT CARRIER, UH, FOR HYDROGEN, THAT, THAT'S FOR SURE.
AND MITSUBISHI, UH, HAS, UH, COMMITTED, UH, LEASED, UH, VIA PRESS RELEASE TO COMMERCIALIZING A SMALL GAS TURBINE NEW, I THINK IT WAS 25 MEGAWATT MACHINE, THE H 100, SOMETIME AROUND 2025.
MAYBE IT'LL GO COMMERCIAL, BUT MORE OF A PROOF OF CONCEPT.
UH, I THINK THE G-E-I-H-I IS AN MOU TO EXPLORE THE POTENTIAL OF MAYBE THINKING ABOUT IT.
UH, AND THE ISSUE IS, IS THAT WHEN YOU, AND, AND YOU KNOW THIS, UH, WHEN YOU BURN AMMONIA IN A GAS TURBINE, FIRST OF ALL, IT'S A DIFFERENT COMBUSTOR.
UH, IT'S A NEW ARCHITECTURE THAT NEEDS TO BE DEVELOPED.
WE'RE WORKING ON AN AMMONIA COMBUSTOR, BUT IT'S FOR MARINE APPLICATION AND A GAS TURBINE WHEN YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT IT IN, UH, LARGER GAS TURBINES, THE QUESTION IS VOLUMES OF AMMONIA.
AND THEN YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT NOX LEVELS THAT ARE TWO ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE HIGHER.
YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT 200 TO 300 PARTS PER MILLION HYDROGEN, WHICH NEED TO BE TAKEN DOWN TO TWO.
SO YOUR SCR IS GONNA BE MUCH BIGGER.
UH, THERE'S GONNA BE HIGHER BACK PRESSURE.
AND THEN THE QUESTION OF COURSE, IS WHO PAYS FOR THE PARASITIC LOAD, LET ALONE THE CAPITAL COST OF PUTTING A POWER PLANT LIKE THAT IN.
AND THEN WE RUN INTO THE SAME ISSUE ABOUT SUPPLY.
BUT I THINK THAT WOULD BE LESS OF AN ISSUE JUST BECAUSE AMMONIA WILL BE A MAJOR CARRIER AROUND OUR COUNTRY, PARTICULARLY, UH, TO THIS STATE, UH, FOR EXPORT.
WITH THAT, UM, I THINK WE, UH, HAVE COVERED, COVERED THE TOPIC THOROUGHLY.
UM, THANK YOU VERY MUCH TO THE ELECTRIC UTILITY COMMISSION AND TO AUSTIN ENERGY FOR HOSTING THIS IMPORTANT DISCUSSION.
AND THANK YOU TO OUR PANELISTS FOR SHARING YOUR EXPERTISE.
THANK YOU, DANA, AND EVERYBODY ELSE.
[7. Discussion of the Resource Generation Plan Working Group’s draft recommendations]
ON TO ITEM SEVEN, DISCUSSION OF RESOURCE GENERATION PLAN WORKING GROUP.SO THE FIRST ANNOUNCEMENT IS, UM, IF YOU ARE EXPECTING TO SEE FINALIZED RECOMMENDATIONS FROM THE WORKING GROUP, UH,
[02:05:01]
YOU'RE NOT GONNA SEE 'EM TONIGHT.UM, AND SO THAT'S THE, THAT'S THE FIRST ANNOUNCEMENT.
THE SECOND ANNOUNCEMENT IS WE'RE GETTING CLOSER.
SO LET ME JUST GIVE A LITTLE BIT OF THE BACKGROUND.
UM, WE HAVE A AND, AND KABA OR OTHERS OR, OR M**K OR DAVE, YOU'RE WELCOME TO, YOU KNOW, ADD YOUR 2 CENTS AS I GO ON.
UM, WE FORMED A WORKING GROUP BACK IN SEPTEMBER, UM, AFTER THIS, AFTER THE EUC AUTHOR US, US TO DO SO.
UH, THAT WORKING GROUP CURRENTLY HAS FOUR MEMBERS OF THE EUC, UH, MYSELF, EVA, DAVE, AND M**K JOINED FAIRLY RECENTLY.
UH, AND I, IF I REMEMBER RIGHT, ABOUT FOUR MEMBERS OF THE RMC AND THEN A NUMBER OF OTHER COMMUNITY MEMBERS.
UM, AND ALL OF THAT INFORMATION, I THINK THIS HAS BEEN ANNOUNCED BEFORE.
UH, WE HAVE A WEBSITE, WHICH IS AUSTIN EUC RESOURCE PLANNING WG.ORG.
I BELIEVE WE'VE, WE'VE, UH, GIVEN THAT INFORMATION, SO ALL OF OUR MEMBERS, ALL OF THE MEETING INFORMATION, ALL OF THE RESOURCES, UM, THE MINUTES OF MANY OF THE MEETINGS ARE AVAILABLE THERE AS WELL AS PRESENTATIONS.
UM, WE HAVE REALLY BEEN, UH, FOCUSED ON COMING UP WITH ADDITIONAL PORTFOLIOS TO THE PORTFOLIOS THAT AUSTIN ENERGY RELEASED IN NOVEMBER TO SEE IF WE CAN, UH, KIND OF CRACK THE CODE FOR PORTFOLIOS THAT GET US TO CARBON FREE EITHER BY 2030 OR BY 2035.
UM, AND DO NOT RELY ON, UH, RESOURCES THAT, UH, PRODUCE CARBON, INCLUDING, FRANKLY, HYDROGEN THAT'S NOT A HUNDRED PERCENT GREEN HYDROGEN.
AND SO, UM, IN THE BACKUP MATERIALS, UH, TO TONIGHT'S MEETING, YOU WILL SEE WE ASKED AUSTIN ENERGY AND WE THANK AUSTIN ENERGY TO RUN THOSE PORTFOLIOS THAT WE CAME UP WITH.
AND SO, UM, WE HAD FOUR, FOUR PORT, THE REALLY TWO PORTFOLIOS WITH 2035 AND 2030 DATES.
UM, AND OUR WORKING GROUP, UH, SPEAKING HONESTLY, HAS REALLY BEEN FOCUSED ON PORTFOLIO A 2035 AS OUR MAIN KIND OF BASE CASE.
AND THAT PORTFOLIO WOULD, UH, REALLY FOCUS ON ENERGY EFFICIENCY, DEMAND RESPONSE, LOCAL SOLAR AND BATTERIES.
UM, WHILE WE PHASE OUT THE USE OF CONVENTIONAL GENERATION AS KIND OF THE RESOURCES WE'RE LOOKING AT, UM, AND, AND, AND OVERALL RENEWABLES, UM, YOU WILL SEE IN THOSE PORTFOLIOS THAT, UM, WE DIDN'T QUITE CRACK THE, THE CODE IN THE SENSE THAT THEY DO NOT MEET ALL THE CRITERIA THAT AUSTIN ENERGY HAS IN TERMS OF THESE SCENARIOS.
UH, BUT WE DO THINK THERE MAY BE A PATH FORWARD WITH THEM.
UM, AND SO THAT'S REALLY THE PROCESS WE'RE GOING THROUGH NOW, UH, IS GOING THROUGH THOSE PORTFOLIOS, THOSE GOALS, UM, AND ALSO LOOKING AT WHAT ADDITIONAL INFORMATION OR RESOURCES WE MIGHT NEED TO MAKE THAT PORTFOLIO, UH, MORE AFFORDABLE AND MORE RELIABLE THAN IT CAME OUT IN THE MODELING EXERCISE.
UM, AND SO IT'S REALLY, I'D SAY WHAT WE'RE COMING UP WITH IS A SERIES OF NEAR TERM AND LONGER TERM GOALS, AND ALSO SOME STUDIES IN THE MEANTIME, KNOWING THAT WE, WE REALLY CAN'T KNOW IN 2024 EXACTLY WHAT'S GONNA BE NEEDED TO GET THERE IN 2035, UM, WITHOUT SOME ADDITIONAL STUDIES.
SO THINGS LIKE, UM, AS WE TRANSITION AWAY FROM GAS AND HAVE THE ISSUE OF THINGS LIKE VOLTAGE SUPPORT AND THE LACK OF REACTIVE POWER, HOW DO WE MAKE THAT UP? UM, L LOOKING AT SOME OF THOSE, YOU KNOW, SOME OF THOSE LONGER TERM RESOURCES LIKE HYDROGEN, LIKE GEOTHERMAL, LIKE LONG DURATION STORAGE WHERE, UH, THERE MAY BE A PATH FORWARD, BUT WE DON'T HAVE ALL THE INFORMATION WE NEED TO, TO DEFINITIVELY SAY, THIS IS THE WAY YOU SHOULD GO.
AND SO THAT'S REALLY, WE WHERE WE ARE.
WE HAVE AN ADDITIONAL MEETING THIS FRIDAY.
I'M HOPING THAT ON FRIDAY WE CAN REACH CONSENSUS ON THOSE RECOMMENDATIONS.
AND IF NOT, WE'VE SCHEDULED ANOTHER MEETING ON THE 30TH.
AND SO THE HOPE IS THAT, UH, LET'S SAY TO BE REALISTIC THAT ON THE 30TH WE WOULD HAVE, UM, OUR DRAFT RECOMMENDATION, WHICH WE WOULD THEN SHARE WITH, UH, AUSTIN ENERGY AND THE FULL EUC AND ANY MEMBERS OF CITY COUNCIL INTERESTED IN SEEING THOSE, THOSE RECOMMENDATIONS GOING BACK TO THE UC.
SO THAT'S KIND OF OUR TIMELINE, AND I DON'T KNOW, UM, I COULD GET INTO MORE SPECIFICS THAN THAT, BUT I DON'T, I DON'T KNOW, UH, WHAT PEOPLE WANNA DO.
AND I DON'T KNOW IF EVA, IF YOU HAVE, OR KAI, DAVE OR M**K IF YOU HAVE ADDITIONAL THOUGHTS TO SHARE.
[02:10:03]
EVA, ANYTHING YOU WANNA ADD TO THAT? UM, WELL, I THINK THAT, I THINK THAT WAS GOOD.UM, I, I, I, I SAW THAT THERE WERE SLIDES POSTED FROM AUSTIN ENERGY.
I DON'T KNOW IF THEY PLAN TO, UM, SPEAK, BUT, UH, I, I HAVE APPRECIATED THAT WE, WE DID GET ANOTHER BATCH OF, UM, RESPONSES TO QUESTIONS BACK TODAY.
UM, SO ALMOST ALL OF THE QUESTIONS THAT WE HAD SUBMITTED IN WRITING HAVE BEEN ANSWERED, BUT THE QUESTIONS THAT WE ASK, UM, WHEN THE PORTFOLIOS WERE PRESENTED, UM, HAVE NOT BEEN RESPONDED TO YET.
AND, UM, I GUESS MOST NOTABLY THE A QUESTION THAT I ASKED BACK WHEN THE FIRST PORTFOLIOS WERE PRESENTED ABOUT THE, UM, THE PROJECTED EMISSIONS OF NOT ONLY GREENHOUSE GASES, BUT OTHER CRITERIA POLLUTANTS FOR EACH OF THE PORTFOLIOS, UM, IT'S STILL NOT BEEN SHARED.
AND, UM, YEAH, I THINK THAT'S, THAT'S REALLY IMPORTANT INFORMATION, UH, FOR THE WORKING GROUP.
AND, UH, WE WOULD LIKE TO BE ABLE TO TAKE THAT AND ACTUALLY DO SOME ADDITIONAL, UM, I GUESS KIND OF FINANCIAL COST ANALYSIS ON THAT.
SO JUST IT ASKING AGAIN, UH, FOR THAT, UH, INFORMATION THAT HAS BEEN PROVIDED IN, IN PREVIOUS ITERATIONS OF, OF THIS KIND OF RESOURCE PLAN PLANNING, JUST THE PROJECTED EMISSIONS FOR EACH PORTFOLIO.
AND, AND THE OTHER, THE OTHER PART OF THAT, UM, CABO WAS WE HAD ASKED, UM, FOR A LITTLE MORE DISAGGREGATED, UM, INFORMATION FROM THE PORTFOLIO, UH, PORTFOLIO RUNS ON OUR SCENARIOS BECAUSE THOSE PORTFOLIO RUNS, FOR EXAMPLE, IN PORTFOLIO A FOR 2035 BASICALLY SHOWED US IN THE GREEN OVERALL AND ON LOCAL CONGESTION OR, OR CUT MARKET RULES, BUT SHOWED THE PLAN WASN'T, WASN'T AFFORDABLE AND IN PART BECAUSE OF SORT OF THE ANNUAL COSTS.
AND SO GETTING AN UNDERSTANDING OF THOSE ANNUAL COSTS AND WHEN THOSE, WHEN THOSE GO INTO EFFECT AND WHAT'S DRIVING THOSE WAS IMPORTANT IF WE'RE GONNA, YOU KNOW, FIGURE OUT THE, THE RIGHT MIX OF RESOURCES.
UM, SO THOSE ARE SOME OF THE THINGS WE'RE KIND OF WAITING FOR, FRANKLY, TO MAKE FINAL RECOMMENDATIONS.
THANKS FOR BRINGING THAT UP, SARAH.
AND JUST, UH, YOU KNOW, FOR FELLOW EEC MEMBERS, UM, WHO MAYBE DIDN'T UNDERSTAND IF I DIDN'T, WHEN THAT INFORMATION WAS FIRST PRESENTED, THE AFFORDABILITY COLUMN, UM, THE WAY THAT IT HAS BEEN CALCULATED OR I GUESS SCORED, IS IF ANY ONE YEAR, UM, EXCEEDS THE 2% THRESHOLD, THEN IT IS SCORED AS UNAFFORDABLE.
UM, IT'S NOT ON AN AVERAGE BASIS.
SO THAT'S WHY WE ASK FOR THAT, UM, ANNUAL DATA BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, THERE, THERE'S A BIG DIFFERENCE THERE BETWEEN AVERAGE COST, UM, AND, AND MAYBE ONE OR TWO YEARS OR A FEW YEARS SPIKING ABOVE THAT MAYBE COULD BE, UM, MITIGATED IN SOME WAY.
SO YEAH, THAT'S ANOTHER REALLY IMPORTANT PIECE OF INFORMATION THAT WE'RE WAITING ON, BUT I THINK THERE WERE A COUPLE OTHER, FEW OTHER QUESTIONS ASKED AT THAT MEETING TOO.
SO I THINK, I THINK WE'RE CLOSE, BUT, UM, STILL WAITING ON SOME KEY INFORMATION.
LISA, WOULD YOU LIKE TO RESPOND? YES, PLEASE.
THANK YOU FOR THE OPPORTUNITY.
LISA MARTIN, DEPUTY GENERAL MANAGER AND CHIEF OPERATING OFFICER FOR AUSTIN ENERGY.
I JUST WANNA ACKNOWLEDGE THE QUESTION ABOUT, OR THE STATEMENT ABOUT THE OUTSTANDING, UM, QUESTIONS.
AND SO WE DO HAVE THOSE QUESTIONS.
UM, WE HAD THEM IN VERBAL FORM AND THEN WE GOT THEM IN WRITTEN FORM.
WE'VE JUST BEEN, YOU KNOW, CROSS-REFERENCING AND MAKING SURE THAT WE HAVE EVERY BIT, UM, RESPONDED TO.
WE ARE IN THE FINAL STAGES OF REVIEW AND ANTICIPATE THAT WE'LL HAVE THOSE TO YOU IN THE NEXT COUPLE OF DAYS.
CERTAINLY YOU'LL HAVE THEM BEFORE YOUR FRIDAY MEETING.
AND THAT DOES INCLUDE, UM, CUMULATIVE EMISSIONS FOR, UM, THE PORTFOLIO RUNS, UM, AND SOME, YOU KNOW, NARRATIVE AROUND AROUND THAT ON HOW TO INTERPRET IT.
IT ALSO INCLUDES, UM, BREAKOUTS OF COST ON AN ANNUAL BASIS FOR THE PORTFOLIOS.
UM, AND IT SPEAKS TO, UM, THE AFFORDABILITY METRICS SPECIFICALLY FOR, UM, YOUR, UM, PORTFOLIO THAT WAS MARKED AS A 2035, WHICH WAS THE LEAST COST.
SO IT SHOWS WHERE, UM, IT, IT SURPASSES THE THRESHOLD.
SO ALL OF THAT INFORMATION IS COMING YOUR WAY, UM, IN THE NEXT, UH, DAY OR SO.
AND I DO WANNA ACKNOWLEDGE WE HAVE, UM, OUR GROUP HAS BEEN VERY ACTIVE AND, AND HAS ASKED AUSTIN ENERGY FOR LOTS OF DATA AND LOTS OF QUESTIONS AND I DO WANNA ACKNOWLEDGE THAT.
UM, WELL SOMETIMES WE WISH WE GOT THE INFORMATION
[02:15:01]
FASTER.I KNOW YOU GUYS HAVE PUT IN A LOT OF WORK AND WE DO APPRECIATE IT.
THE TEAM HAS BEEN WORKING HARD, WE APPRECIATE IT.
UM, CAN I JUST A ASK YOU A QUICK QUESTION JUST TO MAKE SURE THAT WE DON'T HAVE TO ASK ANOTHER, ANOTHER QUESTION.
WHEN YOU SAID THE CUMULATIVE EMISSIONS, UM, WILL THEY STILL BE DISAGGREGATED BY POLLUTANT, LIKE E EACH CRITERIA POLLUTANT SEPARATELY, GREENHOUSE GASES SEPARATELY, BUT OVER THE 10 YEAR RUN? THAT IS CORRECT, YES.
AND, AND THEN, UM, THE ANNUAL COST DATA, WILL WE BE GETTING THAT FOR ALL OF THE PORTFOLIOS? YES, THAT IS, YES.
I I REALLY DO APPRECIATE ALL THE WORK Y'ALL HAVE PUT IN.
AND, AND JUST ANOTHER, UM, ASTERISK IN COMING UP WITH THE RECOMMENDATIONS.
AS I SAID BEFORE, UH, WE ARE GONNA HAVE SOME, UM, KIND OF SHORT TERM STUDIES WE THINK ARE NEEDED.
SO AS AN EXAMPLE, UH, WE THINK THERE'S LOTS OF OPPORTUNITY IN ON THE ENERGY EFFICIENCY SIDE, ESPECIALLY AROUND WINTER PROGRAMS, BUT WE'RE ALSO SENSITIVE TO, UM, AUSTIN ENERGY TELLING US THAT, UM, UNTIL THEY DO SOME POTENTIAL STUDIES, SOME OF OUR ASSUMPTIONS MAY BE, UM, VERY AMBITIOUS, UH, UNTIL SOME OF THAT IS DONE.
SO, UH, WE, WE MAY WANNA SET SOME, SOME LONG-TERM GOALS, BUT WITH THE UNDERSTANDING THAT WE NEED TO DO SOME STUDIES IN THE NEAR TERM TO KIND OF, UM, TRUTH TEST SOME OF THOSE, UH, MORE AMBITIOUS GOALS.
ANY OTHER, ANY OTHER COMMENTS? WELL, WITH THAT, I'D LIKE TO THANK FOLKS FOR THE THOUGHTFUL AND, UH, VERY USEFUL PANEL AND DISCUSSION ON THAT.
IT WAS VERY CONSTRUCTIVE AND VERY EDUCATIONAL.
THANK, SO WE'RE RUNNING EIGHT 20 NOW.
WE'VE GOT NUMBER EIGHT DISCUSSION OF REPORT REGARDING COUNCIL ACTIONS.
I DON'T THINK WE HAVE REALLY ANYTHING, ANYTHING ON THAT, DO WE? NUMBER EIGHT.
[FUTURE AGENDA ITEMS]
AGENDA ITEMS, ANYTHING WE WANNA BRING UP ON THAT? WELL, JUST, UM, ASSUMING LIKE I SORT OF PROMISED WE WOULD HAVE OUR RECOMMENDATIONS ON, ON, YOU KNOW, LET'S SAY JUNE 30TH, FEBRUARY ONE MM-HMM,SO I WOULD ASSUME WE WOULD HAVE THAT DISCUSSION AT THE FEBRUARY MEETING, UM, AND, AND, YOU KNOW, HOPEFULLY COME TO SOME CONSENSUS, BUT IF NOT, YOU KNOW, I THINK WE ALWAYS HAVE THE OPTION TO DO AN ADDITIONAL MEETING IF WE CAN'T, YOU KNOW, COME TO SOME SORT OF CONSENSUS ON THAT DATE.
SO I WOULD DEFINITELY THINK THAT THE, THE, THE WORKING GROUP RECOMMENDATIONS AND ANY A ENERGY RECOMMENDATIONS SHOULD BE AT LEAST BE ON THE AGENDA.
MM-HMM,
AND THEN WE HAD TALKED OVER THE PAST FEW MONTHS ABOUT, UH, THE SUGGESTION THAT COMMISSIONER ALVAREZ HAD SAID, UH, SORT OF A RICHER PORTFOLIO OF DISCUSSIONS.
WE DIDN'T HAVE TIME TONIGHT TO INCLUDE ANY OF THOSE, BUT WE NEED TO BE KICKING THOSE OFF SOONER OR LATER TOO.
SO THAT'S FUTURE ITEMS. THOSE ARE THE TWO THINGS THAT COME TO MY MIND RIGHT NOW.
UH, WITH THAT, HOW ABOUT WE ADJOURN? THANK YOU.