Link

Social

Embed

Disable autoplay on embedded content?

Download

Download
Download Transcript


SO WELCOME.

THIS

[00:00:01]

IS THE ELECTRIC UTILITY COMMISSION FOR JANUARY 22ND, 2024.

UH, WELCOME.

SO THE FIRST THING ON THE AGENDA IS CALLING THE MEETING TO ORDER, BUT PUBLIC COMMUNICATION.

ROBIN, WE HAVE NO SPEAKERS TONIGHT.

OKAY.

THEN I HAVE A COMMENT.

UM, UNFORTUNATELY WE'RE LOSING KAY.

COMMISSIONER TROS FROM THE EUC.

THIS WILL BE HER LAST TIME.

I'D JUST LIKE TO THANK HER FOR HER SERVICE AND HER CONTRIBUTIONS TO THE COMMUNITY AND THE EUC AND WISH YOU THE BEST OF LUCK.

THANK YOU.

IT'S BEEN A, IT'S BEEN A REAL PLEASURE TO, UM, WORK WITH THE AE STAFF AND TO GET TO KNOW THE VARIOUS COMMISSIONERS THAT I'VE SERVED WITH.

AND I'M SURE THAT, UM, EVERYTHING WILL GO EXTREMELY WELL WITHOUT ME .

OKAY.

[1. Approve the minutes of the Electric Utility Commission Regular meeting on November 13, 2023.]

NEXT IS THE APPROVAL OF THE MINUTES.

DO I HAVE ANY MOTION FOR THAT? I'LL MAKE A MOTION TO APPROVE THE MINUTES THAT'S SUBMITTED.

I'LL HAVE A SECOND.

ALL IN FAVOR SAY AYE.

AYE.

AYE.

THAT PASSES.

OKAY.

DISCUSSION AND ACTION

[2. Recommend authorizing negotiation and execution of two contracts for tree growth regulator services with Edko LLC and T&S Growth Solutions, LLC, each for up to three years for total contract amounts not to exceed $5,000,000, divided between the contractors. ]

ITEMS. WE HAVE TWO, THREE, AND FOUR.

I WANT TO PULL, I'VE GOT SOME QUESTIONS ABOUT THREE.

ANYONE ELSE? UM, I HAD A QUICK QUESTION ABOUT TWO.

I APPRECIATE THE INFORMATION THAT WAS PROVIDED.

THE SECOND ONE, OR NUMBER TWO? NUMBER TWO.

ANY OTHER ONES BESIDES TWO AND THREE? OKAY.

[4. Approve the creation of a Budget & Audit working group to provide recommendations on the FY 24/25 Austin Energy budget to the Commission. (Sponsors: Chapman, Trostle)]

LET'S, UH, SEE IF WE HAVE A VOTE ON NUMBER FIVE, WHICH IS APPROVAL OF CREATION OF A BUDGET.

WELL, THAT'S AN INTERESTING THING, RANDY HERE.

OKAY.

UM, IF I COULD, WE REQUESTED THIS BE PUT ON THE AGENDA LAST, UM, LAST MEETING, WHICH WAS IN NOVEMBER.

UH, BECAUSE, UH, I BELIEVE IT'S CORRECT THAT WORKING GROUPS CAN HAVE A TERM OF ONE YEAR UNLESS THEY'RE RENEWED.

THAT'S, THAT'S WHAT IT'S ABOUT.

OKAY.

SO WHAT ACTION DO WE TAKE ON THIS? APPROVE THE CREATION OF THE BUDGET AND AUDIT WORKING GROUP.

OKAY.

SO YOU HAVE A, A MOTION.

I WOULD SO MOVE.

I'LL SECOND.

SECOND.

OKAY.

ALL IN CYRUS? I'M SAY YES.

OKAY.

ALL, ALL IN FAVOR SAY AYE.

AYE.

A.

OKAY.

WE HAVE FIVE.

DO, DO WE THEN NAME MEMBERS AT A LATER TIME? MAYBE NEXT MONTH OR SOMETHING WHEN WE RIGHT.

WE CAN DO THAT.

OR NOW THAT YOU'RE APPROVED, YOU CAN START MEETING ANY TIME.

YOU JUST HAVE TO MAKE SURE THERE'S NOT A QUORUM PRESENT.

I THINK WE CAN WAIT TILL NEXT TIME AND SEE WHO'S INTERESTED.

'CAUSE WE DON'T HAVE EVERYBODY HERE.

RIGHT, RIGHT.

OKAY.

WELL, OTHER THAN BUDGET RECOMMENDATIONS ARE COMING DUE, SO, I MEAN, IT DOESN'T MATTER IF WE CAN MEET OUTSIDE OF THE WORK HERE, BUT JUST FYI.

OKAY.

WE'LL WORK ON THAT LATER.

GETTING BACK TO NUMBER TWO, RECOMMENDED AUTHORIZATION NEGOTIATIONS, TREE GROWTH.

CYRUS, YOU HAD QUESTIONS? YEAH.

FIRST, I, I, I DO WANNA THANK, YEAH, I DO WANNA THANK STAFF FOR PUTTING TOGETHER THAT INFORMATION THAT WAS VERY USEFUL.

UM, AND FROM MY REVIEW OF THESE, OF THE THREE CHEMICAL OR THE THREE PRODUCTS YOU'RE USING AND THE TYPES OF CHEMICALS THEY HAVE, IT DOES, UM, WELL, IT DOESN'T, IT DOESN'T MEAN SOMETHING BAD COULDN'T HAPPEN IN GENERAL.

THEY SEEM SAFE AND TO HAVE PRETTY SHORT, UM, TOXICITY LIVES.

SO I GUESS MY TWO QUESTIONS WOULD BE, HOW DO WE MAKE SURE THOSE APPLYING THE PRODUCT ACTUALLY APPLY IT CORRECTLY SO THAT THERE AREN'T PROBLEMS WITH RUNOFF OR THEY DON'T GO DEEP ENOUGH? SO THAT'S QUESTION NUMBER ONE.

QUESTION NUMBER TWO IS, HOW DO WE INFORM PEOPLE WHO ARE GETTING, UH, HOW DO WE INFORM THE, THE PUBLIC THAT MAY DECIDE, YOU KNOW WHAT, I DON'T WANT THAT REGULATOR ON MY PROPERTY.

WHAT, WHAT DO WE DO TO TO, TO ASSURE THAT? SO IF SOMEBODY WANTS TO OPT OUT, THEY CAN.

OKAY.

UH, ELTON RICHARD, VICE PRESIDENT FIELD OPERATIONS.

BEFORE I GET INTO THAT, UH, I WOULD LIKE TO CONCUR WITH WHAT DAVE SAID, AND I'VE ALREADY THANKED KAY PRIVATELY, BUT I'D LIKE TO DO IT PUBLICLY.

IT'S BEEN A PLEASURE WORKING WITH HER AND SHE'LL DEFINITELY BE MISSED ON IT.

SO, GODSPEED, UH, FIRST ANSWER ON IT.

AS FAR AS THE PEOPLE THAT ARE TRAINED, EACH CONTRACTOR HAS TO GO THROUGH A CERTIFICATION TO SAY THAT THEY ARE CERTIFIED, ARE QUALIFIED WITHIN THE SYSTEM.

ON UNISON IT, THE CHEMICALS ARE A LITTLE BIT DIFFERENT FROM THE TREMORS BECAUSE OF THE KNOWLEDGE ON THE DEPTH OF IT AND THE PROBE.

AND THEN WE ALSO

[00:05:01]

HAVE CONTRACTOR COORDINATORS, WHICH WORK FOR ME, WHICH GO OUT AND AUDIT THE CONTRACTORS TO MAKE SURE THAT THEY'RE USING IT CORRECTLY.

SO THAT'S ALSO HOW WE MAKE SURE THAT THE TRIM IS GOING CORRECTLY.

AS FAR AS THE INDIVIDUALS THAT ARE BEING COULD EITHER ACCEPT OR NOT, IT'S THE SAME PROCESS WHEN WE NOTIFY 'EM.

SO WHEN WE DO THE PLANNING FOR, LET'S SAY CIRCUIT 1, 2, 3, 4, AND CYRUS AND CESAR'S HOUSE IS ON THERE, WE KNOCK ON THE DOOR TO TRY TO MAKE CONTACT NOT THERE.

WE'LL LEAVE A DOOR HANGER SAYING IT'S GONNA BE TRIMMED IN THE POSSIBLE USE OF CHEMICALS, AND THEN IT GOES THROUGH THE PROCESS.

YOU CAN CALL BACK UP, SAY, WHAT'S GONNA HAPPEN IN MY YARD? WE CAN WALK YOU THROUGH IT.

WE'LL COME OUT AND, AND WALK YOU THROUGH IT IF WE NEED TO.

SO THAT'S HOW THEY'D BE NOTIFIED.

AND THEN THEY COULD EITHER CLIENT OR ACCEPT.

AND WILL THE, DOES THE NOTICE SAY WHAT TYPE OF CHEMICALS, LIKE WE'RE USING CANVA STAT? OR DOES IT JUST SAY CHEMICALS IN GENERAL? IT SAY CHEMICAL USE BECAUSE IT COULD BE, IT COULD BE FOUR DIFFERENT CHEMICALS.

IT COULD BE DIVINE GROWTH, WHICH IS TOTALLY SEPARATE FROM THE TREE REGROWTH OR THE THREE CHEMICALS IN THE TREE REGROWTH.

SO IT COULD BE ANY ONE OF THOSE FOUR.

OKAY.

BUT YOU WOULD, YOU DO LEAVE A YES SAYING POSSIBLE CHEMICAL USE WOULD BE APPLIED AND THEN THE INDIVIDUALS WOULD CALL BACK TO EITHER ACCEPT OR DECLINE.

OKAY.

THANKS.

ANY OTHER QUESTIONS ON YES, ? THANKS.

UM, SO I SEE THAT IT SAYS THAT THEY'RE NOT USED WHERE PEOPLE HAVE ACCESS ON ONE SLIDE, BUT IT SOUNDS LIKE THEY'RE USED IN PEOPLE'S YARDS.

I'M, I'M CONFUSED.

CAN YOU EXPLAIN? YEAH.

UNLESS THEY'RE WALKING NINE INCHES UNDER THE SOIL, THEN IT'S NOT WHERE THEY HAVE ACCESS.

SO IT IS NOT ACCESSIBLE WHEN IT'S INJECTED INTO THE SOIL.

AND EVEN ON THE NON INJECTION, IT HAS TO BE TRENCHED.

IT WOULD BE TRENCHED TO THAT DEPTH AND THEN BACKFIELD OVER.

SO IT'D BE CLEAN TOP SOIL ON THE SURFACE.

OKAY.

WELL, I, I'M GUESSING YOU'RE NOT A GARDENER.

UM, DO YOU OR DOES WHOEVER'S DOING THE APPLICATION, DO THEY, LIKE, IS THE AREA DESIGNATED? SO IF SOMEBODY, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE MOVE OR WHATEVER, UM, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE KNOW THAT, LIKE THAT'S NOT AN AREA THAT YOU CAN, YOU KNOW, PLANT SOMETHING.

I REALIZE IT'S NEAR A TREE, BUT SOMETIMES, LIKE, I MEAN, MY NEIGHBOR HAS PLANTINGS RIGHT AROUND HIS, UM, TREES.

SO THAT SEEMS LIKE A WAY THAT SOMEBODY COULD COME IN CONTACT WITH THIS PRODUCT.

YEAH.

THE, THE ONLY TREES THAT ARE BEING TREATED ARE THE ONES IN THE EASEMENT AND RIGHT AWAY.

SO THERE MM-HMM.

, THERE SHOULDN'T BE ANYTHING PLANTED THERE BECAUSE IF WE NEEDED TO WORK ON THAT LINE, THEY WOULD BE REMOVED OR WE'D DRIVE OVER THE TOP OF THEM.

SO IF IT'S A TREE IN YOUR FRONT YARD, THERE'S NO ELECTRICAL LINES AROUND IT.

THERE'S NOTHING, NOTHING TO WORRY ABOUT.

OKAY.

UM, AND CAN YOU TELL ME HOW LONG THE PRODUCT REMAINS FOR? LIKE, UM, IN TERMS OF IT, YOU SAID, YOU KNOW, UNLESS SOMEBODY DIGS IT UP AND COMES INTO CONTACT.

SO HOW LONG DOES THAT REMAIN A RISK? WELL, IT WOULD, IT WOULD STAY IN THE AREA FOR A THREE YEAR PERIOD WHEN IT'S ABSORBED INTO THE ROOT SYSTEM OF THE TREE.

SO IT WOULDN'T BE IN THE SOIL ANYMORE, BUT IT WOULD BE IN THE ROOT SYSTEM OF THE TREE, WHICH WAS REPRESENTED IN THE INFORMATION THAT'S PROVIDED TO SHOW THE TREATED VERSUS UNTREATED ROOT SYSTEM.

OKAY.

THREE YEARS.

UM, THANKS.

AND I, UH, I JUST, I SEE THAT IT SAYS THERE'S NO KNOWN, UM, JUST TRYING TO GO BACK TO THAT SECTION.

NO KNOWN HUMAN IMPACTS.

I'M TRYING TO GET TO THE LANGUAGE, UH, EFFECTS ON, WELL, I JUST, THERE WAS EFFECTS ON POLLINATORS.

UM, NO KNOWN NEGATIVE IMPACTS ON POLLINATORS.

DO YOU KNOW IF THAT'S BEEN TESTED OR IS THIS JUST ONE OF THE MANY CHEMICALS THAT HAS NOT BEEN TESTED YET? IT'S, IT'S A SUBSURFACE.

SO IT WOULDN'T BE IN A POLLINATOR BECAUSE IT'S AGAIN, SIX TO NINE INCHES BELOW THE SOIL.

WELL, DOESN'T IT GO, I MEAN IT OBVIOUSLY TRANSFERS UP THROUGH THE WHOLE POINT IS THAT IT GOES UP INTO THE, INTO THE TREE, RIGHT? YEAH.

BUT ALSO IN THERE, THERE WAS AN ARTICLE THAT SHOWED THE DIFFERENCE OF THE GROWTH OF THE TREE AND THE VITALITY OF THE, THE LEAVES WITH AND WITHOUT.

SO ANY EFFECT IT WOULD HAVE ON THE TREE ITSELF IS POSITIVE.

WELL, RIGHT, BUT THE EFFECT ON THE TREE COULD BE POSITIVE, BUT THE EFFECT ON POLLINATORS COULD BE NEGATIVE.

RIGHT? IT COULD GO THROUGH THE TREE INTO THE FLOWERS AND THE POLLINATORS COULD BE NEGATIVELY AFFECTED.

I MEAN, THIS IS THE CASE WITH, WITH PLENTY OF OTHER AGRICULTURAL PRODUCTS, THE, THE PLANT THAT IT'S APPLIED TO MIGHT GET A POSITIVE IMPACT, BUT THE POLLINATORS DON'T.

SO I'M JUST ASKING IF, YOU KNOW, HAS THAT ACTUALLY BEEN TESTED OR IS THIS JUST AN UNTESTED PRO PRODUCT IN THAT REGARD? IN TERMS OF

[00:10:01]

EFFECT ON POLL, I DID NOT SAY IT'S BEEN TESTED OR NOT TESTED.

OKAY.

THANKS.

AND IS THE SAME TRUE FOR, UM, YOU KNOW, KIND OF, I GUESS HUMAN, HUMAN RISK? WELL, NO, THE HUMAN RISK, IT, IT HAS A CAUTION LABEL ON IT, JUST LIKE MANY HOUSEHOLD CONTAINERS DO.

UH, BUT YEAH, THAT, THAT FROM, FROM MY UNDERSTANDING, READING THE SAFETY DATA SHEETS, UNLESS IT'S DIRECT HUMAN CONTACT, WHILE IT'S STILL IN LIQUID FORM, THERE IS NO, THERE IS NO ISSUE.

OKAY.

THANK YOU.

OTHER QUESTIONS? OKAY.

HOW ABOUT WE VOTE ON THIS? DO I HAVE A MOTION? OH, WE HAVE A MOTION ON THIS.

I'LL MAKE A MOTION.

DO I HAVE A SECOND? THIS IS FOR NUMBER TWO.

I SECOND.

ALL IN FAVOR SAY AYE.

AYE.

UH, KABI, DID YOU VOTE? I'M VOTING AGAINST.

OKAY.

SO FIVE ONE.

MOVING

[3. Recommend authorizing execution of two contracts for batteries, battery banks and battery testing services with Direct Current Preventive Maintenance LLC d/b/a DCPM and Exponential Power Inc. each for up to five years for total contract amounts not to exceed $3,500,000 divided between the contractors.]

ON TO NUMBER THREE.

I HAVE A QUESTION.

THIS IS THE EXECUTION OF CONTRACTS FOR BATTERIES.

HI THERE.

UH, ELAINE VASULKA, INTERIM VICE PRESIDENT OF THE SYSTEM ENGINEERING AND TECHNICAL SERVICES.

SURE.

THANKS.

MM-HMM, .

UM, ARE THESE FOR LEAD ACID BATTERIES FOR LIKE THE DISTRIBUTION SYSTEM AUTOMATION OR SOMETHING? UM, NO, THESE ARE, UM, I THINK TWO VOLT BATTERIES THAT ARE STRUNG TOGETHER, UM, TO CREATE A BATTERY BANK AND THEY'RE AT EACH OF OUR SUBSTATIONS.

AND SO IT'S WHAT, UM, THE PROTECTION AND CONTROL RELAY DEVICES.

UM, IT SERVES AS A, AN, UH, UNINTERRUPTIBLE POWER SOURCE FOR THOSE.

SO UPS FOR UP TO EIGHT HOURS.

SO AT SUBSTATION USE.

OKAY.

ARE THEY LEAD ACID? I AM NOT SURE OF THAT.

I CAN FIND OUT.

OKAY.

SO THE QUESTION WOULD BE, IS THERE AN UPGRADE PATHWAY TO GET AWAY FROM LEAD ACID, NEWER FORMULATIONS OF LITHIUM ION THAT MIGHT HAVE LONGER LIVES, LOWER COST, LOWER TOXICITY? I KNOW THAT THEY MAY BE RECYCLED IF THEY'RE LEAD ACID.

MM-HMM.

.

MM-HMM.

.

BUT IF WE COULD GET SOME KIND OF FOLLOW UP ON THAT, I CAN GET SOME INFORMATION.

SURE.

YEAH, THAT WOULD BE GOOD.

'CAUSE THERE ARE NEW TECHNOLOGIES LIKE LITHIUM, IRON PHOSPHATE THAT DIDN'T GIVE GOOD SERVICE LIFE.

OKAY.

DO THAT.

UH, ANY OTHER BATTERY QUESTIONS? OKAY.

SO I, I MAKE A MOTION TO PASS THIS.

I'LL SECOND IT.

ALL IN FAVOR? AYE.

AYE.

OKAY, ROBIN, WE HAVE SIX ON THAT.

THANKS.

SO I THINK WE NOW

[5. Presentation by Abbe Ramanan, Clean Energy Group, regarding green hydrogen.]

ARE AT THE DISCUSSION ITEMS NUMBER FIVE, PRESENTATION BY ABBY RAHMAN.

DO WE HAVE HER HERE? YES.

I JUST MOVED HER OVER.

HELLO? CAN YOU HEAR ME? OH, YES.

THANK YOU.

GREAT.

UM, AND SHOULD I, CAN I SHARE MY SLIDES OR, UM, IT, IT'S UP TO YOU.

WE CAN PUT THEM ON SCREEN OR IF YOU WANNA SHARE THEM.

OKAY.

UM, YEAH, IF YOU WANNA JUST PUT THEM ON SCREEN, THAT SHOULD BE FINE.

I'M ALSO, I'M, I'M ABLE, I HAVE THEM PULLED UP IF THAT'D BE EASIER.

[00:15:34]

ABBY, WOULD YOU MIND SHARING YOUR SCREEN? YEAH, I CAN DO THAT.

UM, ALL RIGHT.

CAN Y'ALL SEE THOSE? GREAT? YES, WE CAN.

UM, SO HELLO EVERYONE.

MY NAME IS ABBY MANAN.

I'M A PROJECT DIRECTOR WITH CLEAN ENERGY GROUP, AND I'M HERE TODAY TO CHAT ABOUT GREEN HYDROGEN, UM, BOTH GENERALLY AND THEN HOW IT MIGHT PERTAIN TO AUSTIN'S, UM, RESOURCE GENERATION PLAN UPDATE, AND ALSO DECARBONIZATION PLAN OVERALL.

UM, SO A LITTLE BIT OF BACKGROUND BEFORE, UM, I DIVE INTO THE TECHNICAL SIDE OF THINGS.

CLEAN ENERGY GROUP IS A NATIONAL NONPROFIT.

UM, ALTHOUGH BOTH OUR STAFF ARE BASED IN THE NORTHEAST, I'M BASED IN MAINE, WHICH IS WHY IT'S SO DARK IN MY OFFICE RIGHT NOW.

UM, BUT WE WORK TO ADVANCE A JUST CLEAN ENERGY TRANSITION THAT BRINGS RELIABLE, AFFORDABLE, CLEAN ENERGY FOR EVERYONE.

I'M THE PROJECT DIRECTOR OF OUR HYDROGEN INFORMATION AND PUBLIC EDUCATION PROJECT.

UH, THIS AIMS TO PROVIDE STAKEHOLDERS SUCH AS YOURSELVES, AS WELL AS, UM, COMMUNITY GROUPS AND OTHER ADVOCATES WITH, UM, UNBIASED EACH EASILY DIGESTIBLE INFORMATION ON HYDROGEN SO THEY CAN CRITICALLY ASSESS AND RESPONSIBLY ADDRESS HYDROGEN PROPOSALS.

SO WITH THAT, UM, A LITTLE BIT OF TABLE SETTING BEFORE WE GET INTO THINGS.

UM, I LIKE TO START KIND OF ANY CONVERSATION ABOUT HYDROGEN WITH, UM, SOME CONTEXT FOR, UH, WHAT TYPE OF HYDROGEN WE'RE TALKING ABOUT.

UM, THIS IS THE, THE INFAMOUS HYDROGEN RAINBOW YOU ALL MIGHT BE SOMEWHAT FAMILIAR WITH.

THERE'S A LOT OF DIFFERENT COLORS, UM, THAT GET TALKED ABOUT WHEN IT COMES TO HYDROGEN, BUT THE ONLY ONES THAT I'M REALLY GONNA TOUCH ON TODAY ARE GRAY, HYDROGEN BLUE HYDROGEN AND GREEN HYDROGEN.

SO GRAY HYDROGEN IS, UH, ABOUT 95% OF HYDROGEN MADE TODAY IS GRAY HYDROGEN.

IT'S HOW WE'VE TRADITIONALLY PRODUCED IT, UM, THROUGH A PROCESS CALLED STEAM METHANE REFORMATION, UM, THAT USES NATURAL, UH, NATURAL GAS.

AND THIS IS, UH, HIGHLY CARBON INTENSIVE BLUE HYDROGEN, UM, IS HYDROGEN PRODUCED THROUGH THAT EXACT SAME PROCESS, STEAM METHANE REFORMATION, UM, BUT WITH CARBON CAPTURE TECHNOLOGY DEPLOYED DURING THE PROCESS TO CAPTURE SOME OF THOSE CARBON EMISSIONS.

IT IS STILL SOMEWHAT CARBON INTENSIVE, UM, BUT IT IS THE, THAT CARBON, THE CAPTURE TECHNOLOGY CAN MITIGATE SOME OF THOSE EMISSIONS.

GREEN HYDROGEN, UM, IS HYDROGEN PRODUCED THROUGH A DIFFERENT PROCESS, WHAT'S CALLED ELECTROLYSIS.

UH, THIS IS WHEN AN ELECTRIC CURRENT IS RUN THROUGH WATER TO SEPARATE OUT THE MOLECULES.

IF THAT, UH, ELECTROLYZER IS POWERED BY RENEWABLE ENERGY, THEN THAT HYDROGEN IS CONSIDERED GREEN.

SO THOSE ARE KIND OF THE THREE MAIN COLORS I'M GONNA TALK ABOUT TODAY.

UM, I KNOW ALL OF YOU ARE SPECIFICALLY LOOKING AT GREEN HYDROGEN, UM, BUT I DO THINK IT'S IMPORTANT TO DEFINE IT, UH, BECAUSE PARTICULARLY, UM, WITH SORT OF THE FEDERAL INCENTIVES THAT ARE GOING ON NOW AND, AND JUST THE GENERAL CONVERSATION ON HYDROGEN THERE.

UM, GREEN HYDROGEN AND BLUE HYDROGEN IN PARTICULAR TEND TO GET CONFLATED UNDER THE UMBRELLA OF CLEAN HYDROGEN.

SO IT IS REALLY IMPORTANT TO JUST SPECIFY, UM, WHEN YOU'RE KIND OF SOURCING GREEN HYDROGEN, THAT IT IS TRULY GREEN.

THIS HAS BECOME EVEN MORE IMPORTANT NOW BECAUSE, UM, AS SOME OF YOU MIGHT BE AWARE, THE TREASURY RECENTLY RELEASED SOME DRAFT GUIDANCE FOR THE 45 V CLEAN PRODUCTION TAX CREDIT.

SO THIS IS A TIERED INCENTIVE, UM, THAT WAS, UH, INTRODUCED THROUGH THE INFLATION REDUCTION ACT.

UH, THAT INCENTIVIZES, UM, SETTLE CHECK, UH, BOTH CARBON INTENSIVE AND CARBON FREE HYDROGEN.

BUT THE TIER IS, UH, PROVIDES $3 PER KILOGRAM FOR ZERO CARBON HYDROGEN.

THAT'S THE HIGHEST TIER, UM, THAT CAN RECEIVE THAT PRODUCTION TAX CREDIT.

UM, AND NOW THIS TAX CREDIT HAS A FEW ADDITIONAL REQUIREMENTS IN PLACE, UH, FOR HYDROGEN TO BE CONSIDERED TRULY CARBON FREE.

UM, SO THAT IS TEMPORAL MATCHING ADDITIONALITY AND LOCALIZED PRODUCTION.

WHAT DO ALL THOSE WORDS MEAN? BASICALLY, UH, IF YOU'RE, YOU KNOW, RUNNING AN ELECTROLYZER TO PRODUCE HYDROGEN, UH, FOR EVERY HOUR THAT THAT ELECTROLYZER IS ON AND PRODUCING HYDROGEN THAT NEEDS TO BE MATCHED, UH, BY HOURLY PRODUCTION OF RENEWABLE ENERGY, THAT IS NEW RENEWABLE ENERGY.

SO IT IS, UH, RENEWABLE ASSETS THAT CAME ONLINE WITHIN THREE YEARS OF THAT HYDROGEN PRODUCTION FACILITY.

UH, AND IT'S LOCAL RENEWABLE ENERGY, SO IT IS WITHIN THE SAME REGION OR THE SAME ENERGY MARKET AS THE HYDROGEN PRODUCTION FACILITY.

SO ALL THREE OF THOSE REQUIREMENTS NEED TO BE MET IN ORDER FOR ANY HYDROGEN THAT'S

[00:20:01]

CLAIMING TO BE GREEN, HYDROGEN TO BE CONSIDERED ZERO CARBON IF IT WANTS TO BE ELIGIBLE FOR THAT 45 B HYDROGEN PRODUCTION TAX CREDIT.

AND SO, SORRY, QUICK, WHY I, YOU KNOW, CAN I ASK A QUICK QUESTION, ABBY? YEAH, ABSOLUTELY.

UM, CAN YOU GIVE US A SENSE OF THE TIMELINE ON THOSE RULES AROUND, OR THE GUIDANCE BY THE TREASURY? YEAH.

IS THIS SOMETHING THAT'S GONNA BE FINALIZED NEXT MONTH? IS IT, DO, DO YOU KNOW WHAT THE TIMELINE IS? YEAH, THAT'S A GREAT QUESTION.

UM, YEAH, SO THIS IS DRAFT GUIDANCE.

SO IT IS POSSIBLE THAT SOME OF THESE REQUIREMENTS MIGHT BE, UM, ALTERED IN SOME WAY.

UH, TREASURY IS ACCEPTING COMMENTS ON THE DRAFT GUIDANCE THROUGH THE END OF FEBRUARY.

AND THEN, UM, THERE ISN'T A REALLY CLEAR TIMELINE ON WHEN THE FINAL GUIDANCE WILL COME OUT.

MY GUESS IS LIKELY SOMETIME IN THE SUMMER, BUT, UM, THERE ARE ALSO ADDITIONAL, UM, LIKE THE 45 Q AND OTHER PRODUCTION TAX CREDITS THAT ARE, UM, THEY'RE ALSO WORKING ON.

AND SO THEY TEND TO CYCLE WHEN, UH, THE DRAFT GUIDANCE IS GETTING RELEASED, UH, WITH THE FINAL.

BUT, UM, MY GUESS IS LIKELY SOMETIME IN THE SUMMER, UH, IS WHEN WE'RE GONNA SEE THAT THAT FINAL GUIDANCE COME OUT.

THANKS.

I ALSO HAVE A QUESTION.

UM, ABBY, THIS IS KAY.

UM, THE LOCALIZED PRODUCTION REQUIREMENT.

WHAT, HOW DO THEY DEFINE THE SAME REGION? YOU ALSO SAID IT WOULD BE THE SAME ENERGY MARKET, SO IN TEXAS, WOULD THAT BE ERCOT? YES.

SO THERE IS A MAP.

UM, I'M DON'T KNOW OFFHAND IF ALL OF THE REGIONS LINE UP WITH, UM, JUST THE ENERGY MARKETS, BUT I BELIEVE WITH, WITH TEXAS IT WOULD BE ERCOT.

UM, I KNOW FOR EXAMPLE, NEW ENGLAND, IT'S, IT'S THE NEW ENGLAND ISO IS CONSIDERED THE SAME REGION, AND THAT'S HOW THEY'RE DEFINING IT.

OKAY, THANK YOU.

UM, SO THE REASON I, I BROUGHT UP 45 B IS BECAUSE, UM, PRETTY MUCH ANY GREEN HYDROGEN THAT'S GONNA BE PRODUCED IS GOING TO NEED TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THAT TAX CREDIT TO BE KIND OF FINANCIALLY FEASIBLE.

UM, AND THAT'S FOR A FEW REASONS.

UM, ONE IS JUST ELECTROLYZERS ARE REALLY, UH, PRETTY STILL PRETTY EXPENSIVE.

UM, YOU KNOW, I HAVE THIS TABLE ON, UM, THE, THE RIGHT HERE KIND OF BREAKS DOWN THE COST OF AN ELECTROLYZER SYSTEM, UH, IN, IN KILOWATTS PER, UH, OR DOLLARS PER KILOWATT.

UM, AND JUST THE MOST COMMON TYPE OF ELECTROLYZER OR PROTON EXCHANGE MEMBRANE OR PEM ELECTROLYZERS, UM, THOSE, AS YOU CAN SEE ARE ABOUT 800 TO 1200, UM, DOLLARS PER, PER KILOWATT.

UM, AND JUST FOR CONTEXT, UH, LIKE SOLAR IS, IS KIND OF CENTS ON THE KILOWATT.

SO, UM, THE, YOU KNOW, THERE'S STILL A LOT IN TERMS OF PRICE POINT TO BRING THOSE DOWN TO SOMETHING THAT'S GONNA BE, UH, SORT OF FINANCIALLY VIABLE.

SO IN ADDITION TO THOSE SYSTEM COSTS, UM, THERE IS, UH, THE EFFICIENCY COSTS.

SO ELECTROLYZERS ARE REALLY INEFFICIENT.

UM, THEY NEED A TON OF RENEWABLE ENERGY, UM, TO PRODUCE HYDROGEN.

AND THAT'S PART OF WHY TREASURY HAS THOSE, UH, THOSE ADDITIONAL REQUIREMENTS IS TO MITIGATE THE HUGE SPIKE IN DEMAND THAT ELECTROLYZERS CAN CAUSE IF YOU'RE, UM, FOR EXAMPLE, TRYING TO DO GRID CONNECTED ELECTROLYSIS, UM, SO YOU LOSE ABOUT 60 TO 70% OF THE NORMAL ENERGY YOU'RE PUTTING INTO AN ELECTROLYZER.

AND PART OF THAT IS JUST KIND OF, UH, PART OF THE PROCESS BECAUSE YOU'RE TAKING, YOU'RE TAKING ELECTRICITY, YOU KNOW THAT YOU GOT FROM YOUR RENEWABLE ASSET, YOU'RE THEN CONVERTING IT INTO A FUEL, AND THEN IT HAS TO BE RECONVERTED INTO ELECTRICITY LATER ON.

SO YOU ALSO ARE GETTING LOSSES THROUGHOUT THE LIFECYCLE OF THE HYDROGEN.

UM, IN ADDITION TO THAT, BECAUSE OF THOSE EFFICIENCY LOSSES, MOST ELECTROLYZERS NEED TO BE RUN, UM, PRETTY MUCH CONSTANTLY.

AND SO THAT ALSO IS WHERE YOU CAN RUN INTO ISSUES WITH, UM, MEETING THESE 45 B REQUIREMENTS, IS, IS FIGURING OUT HOW YOU CAN MATCH, UH, THAT, YOU KNOW, CONSTANT RUNNING OF THE ELECTROLYZER WITH RENEWABLE ENERGY, UH, CREDITS.

UH, AND THEN FINALLY THERE ARE JUST LIKE SOME SUPPLY CHAIN ISSUES.

UM, THIS IS SOMETHING I KNOW, UH, THERE ARE INITIATIVES IN DOE RIGHT NOW THAT ARE WORKING TO BRING DOWN THE COST OF ELECTROLYZERS AND, UM, MAKING THEM MORE AVAILABLE.

UM, BUT THEY ARE STILL, UH, PRETTY EXPENSIVE AND THEY'RE KIND OF JUST HARD TO, TO GET AHOLD OF.

SO THAT WAS ALL KIND OF LOOKING AT THE COST OF ELECTROLYSIS ITSELF.

UM, BUT THERE ARE ALSO COSTS AND OTHER, UH, FACTORS TO CONSIDER WITH, UM, BOTH THE INPUTS OF THE ELECTROLYSIS AS WELL AS TRANSPORTING THE HYDROGEN, UM, AND THEN GETTING IT TO THE, THE TURBINE AT THE END, UM, IF YOU'RE GONNA BE COMBUSTING IT.

SO, UM, YOU KNOW, THE ELECTROLYSIS INPUTS, UM, YOU KNOW, I DID NOT HAVE, UH, THE, THESE ESTIMATES ARE BASED OFF OF, YOU KNOW, KIND OF WHAT I, I SAW ON THE, THE RESOURCE GENERATION PLAN UPDATES.

SO ASSUMING KIND OF A, A ONE GIGAWATT HYDROGEN CAPABLE COMBINED CYCLE TURBINE, UM, I, YOU, THESE FIGURES ARE, ARE USING THE, THE GE SEVEN HA OH TWO TURBINE, WHICH IS ONE OF THE HYDROGEN CAPABLE COMBINED CYCLE TURBINES THAT ARE ON THE MARKET.

UM, USING THAT CALCULATION AND ASSUMING, YOU KNOW, BASED ON THAT SIZE THAT IT WOULD BE RUNNING AS, UH, EITHER

[00:25:01]

A BASE LOAD PLANT OR LIKE A MID TO BASE LOAD PLANT, UM, YOU KNOW, AROUND LIKE 6,000 HOURS, UH, A YEAR.

UM, SO YOU NEED ABOUT 1500 MEGAWATTS OF NEW RENEWABLE GENERATION, UM, TO POWER THAT ELECTROLYZER.

AND THEN YOU NEED ABOUT, UM, 1,000,100 27,000, UH, 699 GALLONS OF WATER PER DAY.

JUST VERY BIG NUMBER.

UH, FOR CONTEXT, THAT'S ABOUT LIKE 1.7 OLYMPIC SIZED SWIMMING POOLS OF WATER PER DAY.

UM, AND THAT'S SOMETHING I'LL, I'LL TOUCH ON A LITTLE LATER AS WELL.

BUT, UM, ELECTROLYSIS NEEDS A TON OF WATER.

UM, SO THAT'S, THAT'S SOMETHING TO REALLY CONSIDER.

UH, WHEN, WHEN YOU'RE THINKING ABOUT, YOU KNOW, PRODUCING GREEN HYDROGEN BEYOND THOSE INPUTS, UM, YOU KNOW, WHEN YOU'RE THINKING ABOUT HOW THIS HYDROGEN'S GONNA GET TO THE PLANT, UM, UNLESS IT'S ONSITE GENERATION, UH, TRANSMISSION OF HYDROGEN IS, IS REALLY DIFFICULT AND REALLY EXPENSIVE.

HYDROGEN IS A VERY SMALL MOLECULE THAT LIKES TO, UM, LEAK.

IT'S VERY LEAK PRONE, AND IT ALSO, UM, CANNOT BE EASILY TRANSPORTED THROUGH EXISTING PIPELINES.

SO IF HYDROGEN, UM, IS RUN AT, UH, KIND OF, UH, HIGH PRESSURE THROUGH A STEEL PIPELINE, UH, IT WILL CAUSE THIS PROCESS CALLED EMBRITTLEMENT WHERE IT JUST, UH, DIFFUSES THROUGH THE, THE STEEL ALLOY AND IT CREATES ALL THESE LITTLE CRACKS.

AND, UM, THOSE CRACKS LEAD TO EXPLOSIONS, WHICH HYDROGEN EXPLOSIONS ARE, ARE ABOUT FOUR TIMES AS DEADLY AS NATURAL GAS EXPLOSIONS.

SO WE REALLY DON'T WANT THAT.

UM, SO FOR THAT REASON, IT'S VERY DIFFICULT TO RUN THEM THROUGH EXISTING STEEL PIPELINES.

UM, YOU ALSO, BECAUSE IT'S SUCH A SMALL MOLECULE AND, AND OTHER DIFFERENCES IN IT, UM, YOU TEND TO NEED ADDITIONAL COMPRESSOR STATIONS THAN YOU WOULD IF YOU'RE JUST TRANSPORTING NATURAL GAS.

UM, SO THAT FACTOR NEEDS TO BE CONSIDERED AS WELL IF YOU'RE GONNA BUILD OUT NEW PIPELINES, UM, AGAIN, BECAUSE YOU NEED, UH, DIFFERENT EQUIPMENT FOR HYDROGEN PIPELINES AND YOU NEED THOSE ADDITIONAL COMPRESSOR STATIONS, UM, HYDROGEN PIPELINES CAN COST UP TO 68% MORE THAN NATURAL GAS PIPELINES TO BUILD.

UM, THAT IS, YOU KNOW, KIND OF THE HIGHEST FIGURE.

BUT, UM, IT'S USUALLY BETWEEN 68 TO, YOU KNOW, AROUND LIKE 40% MORE THAN A NATURAL GAS PIPELINE.

UM, AND YOU KNOW, ONE OF THE REPORTS I LINKED TO THAT I HIGHLY RECOMMEND YOU ALL CHECK OUT IS, IS BY PIPELINE SAFETY TRUST.

UM, THEY GET INTO ALL THE REASONS WHY HYDROGEN BLENDING AND, AND RUNNING HYDROGEN THROUGH EXISTING NATURAL GAS PIPELINES CAN JUST BE REALLY DANGEROUS.

SO BEYOND ALL THE, THE TRANSMISSION COSTS, UM, THE OTHER THING TO CONSIDER IS, IS JUST THE COST OF THE TURBINE ITSELF.

UM, SO IT IS KIND OF HARD TO FIND A TON OF COST INFORMATION ON HYDROGEN COMBINED CAPABLE, UH, TURBINES ON THE MARKET JUST 'CAUSE THEY'RE ALL ARE VERY NEW.

BUT, UM, A, A PRETTY GOOD COMPARISON IS THE NEW ONE, GIGAWATT, UH, O CAPS, HYDROGEN CAPABLE COMBINED CYCLE TURBINE THAT'S BEING BUILT OUT IN ORANGE COUNTY, UM, BY ENTERGY.

UH, THE HYDROGEN COMPONENT OF THAT PROJECT IS A LARGER PROJECT THAN, UM, WHAT YOU ALL ARE CONSIDERING, BUT THE HYDROGEN CAPABLE, UH, PORTION OF THAT PROJECT ITSELF IS, IS ESTIMATED ABOUT 9 MILLION.

UM, SO THAT IS ANOTHER FACTOR TO CONSIDER.

AND, UH, ADJUST, OH, SORRY, I, MY LAPTOP IS BLOCKING A SECOND SCREEN.

I FORGOT THAT MY CAMERA'S THERE.

UM, BUT ALSO JUST A, A THING TO NOTE THERE IS THAT THE, THE PUC DID STATE THAT, UM, THAT ENTITY PROJECT DID NOT MEET THE BURDEN OF PROOF FOR DEMONSTRATING THE RELIABILITY, UM, OR AFFORDABILITY OF, OF HYDROGEN CO FIRING.

SO, QUICK QUESTION, THOSE ARE KIND OF ALL COST CONSIDERATION.

OH, SORRY.

YEAH, QUICK QUESTION.

SO WHEN IT'S A HYDROGEN COMPATIBLE SET OF TURBINES, DOES THAT MEAN A HUNDRED PERCENT OR IS THAT SOME BLEND RIGHT NOW? AND WHEN WOULD BE THE TURBINES HAVING THE ABILITY TO, TO HANDLE A HUNDRED PERCENT HYDROGEN? YEAH, THAT'S, THAT'S A GREAT QUESTION.

SO, UM, HYDROGEN CAPABLE, PART OF THE REASON THAT, UM, THERE ARE THESE NEW TURBINES ON THE MARKET IS BECAUSE IT'S VERY DIFFICULT TO RUN, UH, HYDROGEN AT HIGH BLENDS, UH, IN EXISTING LIKE NATURAL GAS TURBINES.

UM, PART OF THAT IS 'CAUSE IT'S JUST SO MOLECULARLY DIFFERENT FROM LIKE METHANE.

UM, SO THE, FOR EXAMPLE, THE, THE GE 70 HA OH TWO TURBINE IS CAPABLE OF BLEND, THEY'RE COMBUSTING 75% HYDROGEN RIGHT NOW.

UM, AND THEN I THINK THAT THE TIMESCALE IS BY LIKE 2035, THEY'RE AIMING TO GET IT UP TO A HUNDRED, BUT THAT, UM, THAT $9 MILLION FIGURE I I MENTIONED, PART OF THAT IS THE UPGRADES THAT NEED TO HAPPEN TO GET IT TO, UH, TO BE CAPABLE OF COMBUSTING A HUNDRED PERCENT HYDROGEN.

OKAY.

THANK YOU.

UM, YOU KEEP SAYING IT'S A 9 MILLION COST ON YOUR SLIDE, IT SAYS 91 MILLION.

YEAH.

SORRY, I, I JUST NOTICED THAT AS WELL.

UH, 91 MILLION.

I TRUST THE SLIDES.

DON'T TRUST ME.

.

ALL RIGHT.

SO THOSE ARE KIND OF ALL THE COST CONSIDERATIONS.

UM, BUT THEN KIND OF MOVING TO CAN GREEN HYDROGEN ACTUALLY HELP YOU MEET DECARBONIZATION GOALS? SO THE BIG ISSUE HERE, UM, AS I MENTIONED, HYDROGEN IS VERY PRONE TO LEAKAGE.

UM,

[00:30:01]

AND, AND PART OF THE ISSUE WITH THAT LEAKAGE IS THAT, UM, SINCE WE HAVEN'T REALLY LIKE BUILT OUT HYDROGEN UH, EQUIPMENT AT SCALE, UH, WE DON'T HAVE EQUIPMENT THAT'S CURRENTLY SENSITIVE ENOUGH TO CAPTURE THE, THE LEVEL OF HYDROGEN LEAKS WE'D BE SEEING IF WE'RE STARTED, YOU KNOW, UH, RUNNING HYDROGEN THROUGH PIPELINES AND COMBUSTING AND ALL OF THAT.

UM, WE DON'T HAVE EQUIPMENT TO CAPTURE THOSE LEAKS.

AND THE REASON THOSE LEAKS ARE SUCH A HUGE PROBLEM IS BECAUSE ONCE HYDROGEN GETS LEAKED INTO THE ATMOSPHERE, UM, IT INTERACTS WITH THESE OXY RADICALS, UM, THAT HELP, UH, THEY HELP DISSIPATE HYDROGEN, BUT THEY ALSO HELP DISSIPATE METHANE.

SO BASICALLY THE MORE HYDROGEN YOU GET INTO THE ATMOSPHERE, IT KIND OF TAKES UP ALL THOSE OXY RADICAL DANCE PARTNERS.

UH, AND SO THE METHANE CAN COMBINE WITH THEM, AND THEN THE METHANE JUST SITS IN THE ATMOSPHERE FOR LONGER.

UM, AND BECAUSE OF THAT, UM, THE HYDROGEN, THAT INDIRECT WARMING ISSUE, UM, IT'S SHORT TERM WARMING IMPACT IS ABOUT 35 TIMES WORSE THAN CO2.

IN THE FIRST 20 YEARS OF ITS LIFETIME.

IT IS SIGNIFICANTLY WORSE THAN CO2.

UM, AND THAT'S WHY THAT THAT LEAKAGE ISSUE IS SO IMPORTANT AND REALLY CONCERNING.

UM, NOW Y'ALL ARE LOOKING AT, YOU KNOW, A COMBUSTING, A FAIRLY HIGH BLEND OF HYDROGEN TO NATURAL GAS, UM, AND EVENTUALLY A HUNDRED PERCENT HYDROGEN.

AND WHEN YOU COMBUST A HUNDRED PERCENT HYDROGEN, YOU DON'T GET CO2 EMISSIONS.

THAT IS TRUE.

HOWEVER, UH, BECAUSE OF THAT INDIRECT WARMING ISSUE, AND BECAUSE HYDROGEN IS LESS ENERGY DENSE THAN NATURAL GAS, IT IS NOT A ONE-TO-ONE, UH, YOU KNOW, AS YOU INCREASE THE VOLUME OF HYDROGEN, YOU GET AN A REDUCTION IN CO2.

UM, BECAUSE OF THAT, THAT LACK OF ENERGY DENSITY AND THEN THE LEAKAGE ISSUE, UH, THERE'S ACTUALLY A RECENT ANALYSIS THAT CAME OUT AND THAT THIS WAS LOOKING AT, UM, A A MUCH LOWER BLEND, 30% HYDROGEN WITH NATURAL GAS.

UM, IF YOU INCLUDE KIND OF THE UPSTREAM LIFECYCLE EMISSIONS THAT YOU'RE GETTING FROM THESE HYDROGEN LEAKS INTO THE ATMOSPHERE, UM, YOU'RE ONLY REALLY SEEING A 6% DECREASE IN GREENHOUSE GAS EMISSIONS.

BUT OVERALL, UM, SO THAT'S ANOTHER THING TO CONSIDER IS, IS JUST, UM, HOW THE OVERALL LIFECYCLE EMISSIONS, UM, ARE GONNA BE IMPACTED BY INCREASING THE AMOUNT OF HYDROGEN, PARTICULARLY BECAUSE, UH, AS A STUDY FOUND, YOU ARE GONNA GET A HUGE AMOUNT OF LEAKAGE JUST AS YOU'RE INCREASING THE AMOUNT OF HYDROGEN YOU'RE TRANSMITTING.

IT'S, IT'S KIND OF INEVITABLE.

UM, WE JUST DON'T REALLY HAVE ENOUGH, UH, INFORMATION OR TECHNOLOGY TO ADDRESS THE, THE LEAKAGE ISSUE RIGHT NOW.

UM, SO FINALLY, YOU KNOW, I KIND OF TOUCHED ON HOW THIS CAN IMPACT DECARBONIZATION, BUT THERE ARE A FEW OTHER, UH, ADDITIONAL DRAWBACKS TO CONSIDER, UM, NOX EMISSIONS.

SO THIS IS ACTUALLY WHY CLEAN ENERGY GROUP GOT, UM, KIND OF INVOLVED IN, IN HYDROGEN, UH, IN THE FIRST PLACE, IS BECAUSE WE WERE REALLY CONCERNED ABOUT THE ISSUE THAT HYDROGEN PRODUCES SIX TIMES AS MUCH, UH, NITROGEN OXIDE, REALLY HARMFUL AIR POLLUTANT AS METHANE WHEN IT'S COMBUSTED.

UM, NOW THE NEW HYDROGEN CABLE COMBINED CYCLE TURBINES DO ADDRESS THE NOX ISSUE.

UM, BUT WHAT THEY DO IS THEY BRING THE NOX EMISSIONS DOWN TO ABOUT THE SAME LEVELS AS A NEWER NATURAL GAS PLANT.

UM, AND FOR US, THE CLEAN ENERGY GROUP, UM, YOU KNOW, A BIG PART OF OUR MISSION IS, UM, HELPING THOSE COMMUNITIES THAT HAVE BEEN IMPACTED BY DECADES OF EXISTING NOX EMISSIONS FROM BEING LOCATED IN NEAR NATURAL GAS PLANTS.

UM, SO, YOU KNOW, WHENEVER SOMEONE'S SUGGESTING REPLACING, YOU KNOW, ONE SOURCE OF NOX EMISSIONS WITH JUST ANOTHER SOURCE OF NOX EMISSIONS, UM, THAT'S REALLY CONCERNING TO US.

SO, UH, DID WANNA FLAG THAT.

UM, AND THEN WINTER RELIABILITY, UM, THIS IS SOMETHING I DID WANNA FLAG JUST BECAUSE, UH, WE HAVE SEEN SEVERAL UTILITIES KIND OF BRING UP THE IDEA OF, OF BUILDING A NEW HYDROGEN PLANT BECAUSE OF THE ISSUE OF RELIABILITY.

UM, HYDROGEN CAPABLE COMBINED CYCLE TURBINE IS, IS, IS ESSENTIALLY A NEW GAS PLANT.

UM, IT'S WORTH KIND OF TREATING IT AS A, AS A NEW GAS PLANT WHEN YOU'RE CONSIDERING WINTER RELIABILITY.

UM, THERE'S A GREAT NEW REPORT THAT I LINKED TO HERE THAT'S FROM THE UNION CONCERNED SCIENTISTS THAT LOOKS AT, UM, HOW EXCEPTIONALLY VULNERABLE TO CLIMATE RISK GAS PLANTS ARE.

UM, YOU KNOW, YOU ALL, I DON'T, I FEEL LIKE I, I DON'T NEED TO TELL YOU ALL ABOUT, UM, YOU KNOW, BOTH FROM WINTER STORM AREA BACK IN 2021, AND ALSO EVEN JUST, UM, YOU KNOW, WITH WINTER STORM HEATHER THIS PAST WEEK, UM, YOU ALL ARE FAMILIAR WITH, YOU KNOW, JUST, UH, WHAT NEEDS TO BE DONE TO, TO MAINTAIN GAS PLANTS, UH, IN, IN WINTER WEATHER.

AND, UM, WE DON'T REALLY HAVE ANY DATA ON HOW ELECTROLYSIS PERFORMS, UM, UNDER WINTER WEATHER.

YOU KNOW, THINKING ABOUT ONE, THE, THE RENEWABLES THAT ARE ATTACHED TO THE ELECTROLYZERS AND THEN THE FACT THAT YOU'RE, YOU KNOW, THIS IS A VERY WATER RELIANT, UH, PRODUCTION SOURCE.

UM, WE DON'T HAVE A TON OF GREAT DATA ON, ON WHAT THAT PERFORMANCE LOOKS LIKE OR HOW IT COULD BE IMPACTED BY SEVERE WEATHER.

UM, AND, YOU KNOW, IT'S, YOU DON'T NECESSARILY NEED, UH, JUST A, A FIRM RESOURCE LIKE A HYDROGEN TURBINE, UM, TO ADDRESS THAT RELIABILITY

[00:35:01]

ISSUE.

UM, I JUST, YOU KNOW, I FOUND THIS, THIS GREAT LITTLE, LITTLE FACTOID, UH, EARLIER THIS MORNING.

THOUGHT I INCLUDED, UM, YOU KNOW, THIS PAST TUESDAY, I THINK IT WAS AROUND, UH, LIKE NEGATIVE ONE DEGREE FAHRENHEIT OR SOMETHING THROUGH MIMOSA TEXAS AND SOLAR, UH, WAS OPERATING AND DEPLOYED ABOUT 1.5 GIGAWATTS AND BATTERIES DEPLOYED, UM, 1.2 GIGAWATTS OF, OF ENERGY.

SO, UM, JUST WORTH CONSIDERING, THERE ARE OTHER OPTIONS IF RELIABILITY IS A HUGE CONCERN, UM, YOU KNOW, JUST, I, I THINK IT'S, IT'S WORTH NOT JUST LETTING RELIABILITY BE KIND OF THIS, THIS BOOGEYMAN THAT, YOU KNOW, PUSHES FORWARD A, UH, NOT NECESSARILY THE BEST OPTION.

UM, AND FINALLY JUST WATER SCARCITY.

YOU KNOW, I DID BRING UP THAT, UM, 1 MILLION GALLONS OF WATER PER DAY.

AS I SAID, ELECTROLYSIS IS JUST A VERY WATER INTENSIVE PROCESS.

UM, WE DON'T HAVE A TON OF, UH, THERE, THERE HAVE BEEN SOME STUDIES ON, ON KIND OF HOW, UM, YOU KNOW, YOU CAN, UH, LIKE I KNOW OUT IN LA THEY DID DO A STUDY OF OF OF HOW THEY COULD CONVERT WASTE WATER INTO WATER THAT COULD BE USED FOR ELECTROLYSIS.

UM, BUT YOU DO STILL GET, EVEN IF YOU'RE, YOU KNOW, TAKING WATER THAT WOULD OTHERWISE BE WASTED AND, AND PUTTING IT TOWARDS ELECTROLYSIS, YOU ARE STILL GONNA, YOU CAN'T RECYCLE ALL THE WATER THAT'S GOING THROUGH AN ELECTROLYZER.

SO YOU DO GET, STILL GET SOME LEVELS OF LOSS.

UM, AND IN PARTICULAR FOR WASTEWATER, THE WATER THAT GOES THROUGH AN ELECTROLYZER NEEDS TO BE PURIFIED.

UM, IF YOU'RE LOOKING AT PURIFYING WATER, YOU NEED ABOUT TWICE AS MUCH WATER, UM, AS YOU DO FOR IF IT WAS ALREADY PURIFIED.

SO, UM, IT'S ABOUT TWO TONS OF WATER YOU NEED PER TON OF HYDROGEN PRODUCED.

UM, IN, IN AREAS THAT ARE, ARE LOOKING AT POTENTIAL WATER SCARCITY.

UM, LIKE IN TEXAS, UH, I DO JUST ALWAYS WANNA FLAG THAT, UM, 'CAUSE IT CAN BE A, A HUGE ISSUE.

UM, SO, YOU KNOW, WE AT CLEAN ENERGY GROUP, WE'RE NOT HYDROGEN NAYSAYERS.

UH, WE DO THINK THAT GREEN HYDROGEN, UM, CAN PLAY A, A VALUABLE ROLE IN DECARBONIZING VERY SPECIFIC, UH, INDUSTRIES.

WE DON'T THINK IT REALLY MAKES SENSE FOR POWER GENERATION, BUT THINGS LIKE MARITIME SHIPPING, LONG HAUL AVIATION, UH, WHEN IT'S BEING RUN THROUGH A FUEL CELL, UM, YOU KNOW, FUEL CELLS, UH, IF YOU ARE RUNNING HYDROGEN THROUGH A FUEL CELL, YOU DON'T GET ANY OF THE, THE NEGATIVE IMPACTS FROM THE NOX EMISSIONS OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT.

UM, SO YOU KNOW, WE'RE, WE'RE, WE DO THINK THAT GREEN HYDROGEN CAN PLAY A ROLE, BUT IT'S WORTH CONSIDERING IF IT'S THE BEST USE OF IT.

UM, IF YOU'RE GONNA BE COMBUSTING IT.

UM, AND IF YOU'RE GONNA BE PRODUCING IT IN A REGION THAT CAN'T NECESSARILY HANDLE, UM, THE HUGE INCREASE IN, IN WATER DEMAND AND, UM, YOU KNOW, WHETHER BUILDING OUT A TON OF RENEWABLES TO POWER AN ELECTROLYZER, UH, IS WORTH IT VERSUS JUST BILLING OUT THEIR RENEWABLES TO DECARBONIZE EMISSIONS ON THE GRID OVERALL.

SO, UM, THAT'S KIND OF ALL I HAD TODAY.

UH, I LINKED TO SOME OTHER, UH, GREAT RESOURCES ON THERE AND, UM, YOU KNOW, HAPPY TO ANSWER QUESTIONS NOW OR YOU'RE ALL WELCOME TO TO EMAIL ME, UM, AFTERWARDS AS WELL.

THANKS.

THANK YOU CYRUS.

ABBY, AND I MAY ASK THE PANELISTS THIS AS WELL.

UM, I'VE WROTE A COUPLE ABOUT A COUPLE OF APPLICATIONS IN HYDROGEN, THE POWER SECTOR THAT SEEM TO ME THAT ARE, I'LL SAY SMALLER SCALE THAT SEEMED INTERESTING.

ONE WAS I WAS READING ABOUT, UM, SOME DATA CENTERS THAT WERE USING HYDROGEN AS A BACKUP TO ASSURE, YOU KNOW, RELIABLE SERVICE 'CAUSE THEY NEED 24 7, BUT THEY WERE USING, UM, GREEN HYDROGEN AND FUEL CELLS.

HAVE YOU SEEN APPLICATIONS LIKE THAT THAT ARE SORT OF SMALLER SCALE FUEL CELLS THAT ARE MORE THERE FOR THOSE RELIABILITY, UH, ISSUES? SO YOU HAVE, YOU KNOW, YOU HAVE A, YOU, YOU WOULD, I GUESS YOU WOULD HAVE THE HYDROGEN ON SITE AND YOU WOULD JUST HAVE IT AVAILABLE FOR THOSE TYPE OF SITUATIONS.

THAT'S ONE.

AND THEN THE OTHER I WAS READING ABOUT IS, I BELIEVE IT'S DUKE ENERGY IS ACTUALLY INVESTING IN A LARGE SOLAR PLANT AND THEY'RE TAKING SOME OF THAT ENERGY FROM THE SOLAR PLANT AND, YOU KNOW, HAVING SORT OF A COUPLE MEGAWATTS ON THE SIDE OF, OF HYDROGEN.

AND AGAIN, IT'S MORE TO EXTEND THE USE OF THAT SOLAR PLANT FOR KIND OF EMERGENCIES.

IS IS THAT SOMETHING THAT MIGHT BE WORTH LOOKING AT SORT OF SMALLER SCALE FUEL CELL TECHNOLOGY? IS THAT, YEAH, SO, UM, YOU KNOW, WE, AT PLANET GROUP WE DO A TON OF WORK WITH BATTERIES.

UM, AND, YOU KNOW, BATTERIES ARE, ARE GREAT, BUT THEY ARE FOR, UM, KIND OF LIKE YOU WERE SAYING, DATA CENTERS OR WE WORK WITH A LOT OF HOSPITALS THAT HAVE LOOKED AT FUEL CELLS WHEN YOU NEED KIND OF THAT REALLY FIRM BACKUP POWER.

AND WHEN, UM, WE FOUND IT, FUEL CELLS WORK REALLY GREAT WHEN, UM, THE, THE AMOUNT OF BACKUP YOU NEED.

SO FOR EXAMPLE, WITH A HOSPITAL WHERE YOU'RE, YOU KIND OF, YOU KNOW, NEED TO BACK UP A TON OF, UM, YOU KNOW, DEMAND, UM, FUEL CELLS ARE GREAT FOR JUST BRINGING DOWN THAT BASE LOAD AND EITHER PAIRING THEM WITH A BATTERY SO THAT YOU'RE NOT, UM, SPENDING A TON OF MONEY ON AN ENORMOUS BATTERY.

UM, OR LIKE YOU'RE SAYING, WHEN YOU NEED KIND OF A FIRM BACKUP AND YOU CAN STORE THE HYDROGEN.

UM, I, SO YEAH, THOSE

[00:40:01]

SMALLER SCALE USES.

THERE'S ALSO, UM, SOME, SOME MULTIFAMILY HOUSING COMPLEXES OUT IN SWEDEN THAT, UH, INSTALLED SOLAR AND THE SOLAR, UH, KIND OF PRODUCES HYDROGEN THAT THEN GETS STORED AND THEN IS DEPLOYED IN FUEL CELLS, UM, LIKE DURING THE WINTER MONTHS.

UM, SO YEAH, UH, FUEL CELLS, UH, CAN HAVE A LOT OF USES AND, AND THOSE OTHER ONES THAT I FLAGGED, THE, THE MARITIME SHIPPING, AVIATION, ALL OF THAT, THAT IS ALSO ALL, UM, USING FUEL CELLS, NOT HYDROGEN COMBUSTION.

THANKS.

AND THEN ONE, ONE OTHER QUESTION, THE, THE DATA POINT, AND I'LL, I'LL LOOK AT YOUR SOURCE LATER ABOUT HYDROGEN PRODUCING SIX TIMES THE AMOUNT OF NOX.

SO WAS THAT, YOU SAID THAT WOULDN'T BE THE CASE IN THESE NEWER MODELS.

SO WHAT WAS, WHAT WAS THAT CASE THAT YOU WERE REFERRING TO AS BEING SIX TIMES THE AMOUNT OF NOX? YEAH, SO, UM, THE, YOU KNOW, THE, IT'S, THAT'S THE SIX TIMES FIGURE IS BECAUSE IS LOOKING AT JUST, UM, HYDROGEN COMBUSTION IN LIKE A SWIRL BURNER.

SO, UM, BECAUSE NOX FORMATION IS A FUNCTION OF TEMPERATURE, HYDROGEN JUST BURNS MUCH HOTTER THAN METHANE DOES.

UM, SO THAT'S KIND OF WHERE YOU GET THOSE NOX ISSUES.

SO FOR EXAMPLE, UM, IN, UH, LIKE NATURAL GAS TURBINES WHERE THEY'RE BLENDING A, A BLEND OF HYDROGEN AND NATURAL GAS, THEY DO SEE THAT SPIKING NOX EMISSIONS BECAUSE MOST NOX EMISSIONS CONTROL TECHNOLOGIES IN JUST LIKE A NATURAL GAS PLANT, THE, THE WAY MOST OF THEM OPERATE IS BY COOLING THE FUEL MIX, RIGHT? SO EITHER BY INJECTING AIR OR WATER, UM, TO BRING DOWN THE TEMPERATURE OF THE FUEL MIX WHEN IT'S COMBUSTING, SO LESS NOX FORMS, UM, WHEN YOU HAVE SOMETHING THAT'S JUST GONNA BURN HOTTER NO MATTER WHAT, UH, IT'S JUST MUCH HARDER TO REDUCE THAT AMOUNT OF NOX FORMATION.

SO THOSE, UM, THE COMBINED CYCLE PLANTS, UM, I DON'T KNOW THE EXACT TECHNOLOGY THAT THEY'RE USING TO, TO ADDRESS THE NOX ISSUE, BUT IT IS, UH, EASIER TO MITIGATE THE NOX EMISSIONS WHEN IT'S A HUNDRED PERCENT HYDROGEN WHEN IT'S NOT A BLEND BECAUSE YOU'RE NOT WORKING WITH KIND OF TWO DIFFERENT, UM, ELEMENTS AND YOU'VE GOTTA DEAL WITH DIFFERENT TEMPERATURES.

THANKS.

THIS SAYS OUR BETAS, UM, GIVEN THE LIMITS THAT WE HAVE TO ACCESSING FRESH WATER IN THIS PART OF TEXAS, UH, HAVE Y'ALL LOOKED AT USING SEAWATER INSTEAD? THAT'S, UH, ALSO, YEAH, ALSO AVAILABLE TO US IN OUR DISTRICT, IN OUR, IN OUR AREA, SO TO SPEAK.

YEAH, SO I'LL SAY THAT, UM, THAT, UH, LA STUDY THAT I MENTIONED, THEY DID LOOK AT DESALINATION AND THEY REJECTED IT AS, AS AN OPTION BECAUSE, UM, DESALINATION IS ALSO VERY ENERGY INTENSIVE AND YOU GET A LOT OF NASTY BYPRODUCTS.

SO, UM, THAT COMBINED WITH THE FACT THAT YOU NEED SO MUCH WATER, UH, IT JUST DOESN'T REALLY MAKE SENSE TO, YOU KNOW, BE INVESTING THAT MUCH ENERGY INTO JUST GETTING THE WATER THAT YOU THEN NEED TO MAKE THE HYDROGEN.

UM, IT JUST, IT MAKES IT KIND OF NOT VIABLE BOTH FINANCIALLY AND, AND ALSO JUST, YOU KNOW, FROM A KIND OF ENVIRONMENTAL STANDPOINT 'CAUSE OF THE BYPRODUCTS.

THANK YOU.

WHAT OTHER QUESTIONS DO WE HAVE? OKAY, WELL THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US IN YOUR PRESENTATION.

SO I THINK IT'S POSTED ON THE WEBSITE.

OKAY.

SO HERE, SLIDE DECK IS POSTED ON THE EUC WEBSITE.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH, ABBY.

I REALLY APPRECIATE THE PRESENTATION.

THANK YOU.

YEAH, NO PROBLEM.

OKAY, NOW WE WANNA MOVE TO

[6. Discussion on hydrogen technology by Michael Hoffman, Austin Energy Environmental Services Manager; Michael Webber, University of Texas; Patrick Drupp, Sierra Club; Joseph Benoit, PSM; and moderated by Dana Harmon.]

NUMBER SIX, WHICH IS THE PANEL DISCUSSION.

THANK YOU FOR BEING HERE.

DANA, DO YOU WANT TO INTRODUCE EVERYONE AND START? YES, I'LL, I'LL BE HAPPY TO.

UM, GOOD EVENING EVERYONE.

MY NAME IS DANA HARMON.

I'M AN INDEPENDENT CONSULTANT, UM, WORKING AMONG OTHER THINGS ON, UH, THE HIGH VELOCITY HYDROGEN HUB WITH THE HOUSTON ADVANCED RESEARCH CENTER.

UM, ALSO PREVIOUSLY SERVED AS A, UM, ON THE RESOURCE MANAGEMENT COMMISSION FOR THE CITY OF AUSTIN.

ARE WE GETTING SOME, I BELIEVE WE'RE GETTING A LITTLE BIT OF FEEDBACK FROM SOMEONE ONLINE.

COULD YOU MUTE, PLEASE? IS THAT BETTER? OKAY, GREAT.

THANK YOU.

UM, SO, UH, KURT ASKED ME TO GIVE A LITTLE BIT OF BACKGROUND, UM, IN, IN TERMS OF HOW WE GOT HERE, AND I'LL DO THAT AND THEN, UM, IT WILL BE MY PLEASURE TO INTRODUCE OUR

[00:45:01]

PANELISTS TODAY.

SO IN NOVEMBER, AUSTIN ENERGY PRESENTED A PRELIM, PRELIMINARY RECOMMENDATIONS FOR THE AMENDMENT OF THE CURRENT RESOURCE GENERATION AND CLIMATE PROTECTION PLAN TO 2030.

THESE RECOMMENDATIONS INDICATED THE NEED TO BUILD NEW LOCAL DISPATCHABLE, CARBON FREE GENERATION AUSTIN ENERGY MODELED HYDROGEN CAPABLE, CAPABLE COMBINED CYCLE GENERATORS AND NOTED GREEN HYDROGEN AS ONE POSSIBLE PATH TO CARBON FREE BY 2035.

THE UC HAD A NUMBER OF QUESTIONS ABOUT THE ENVIRONMENTAL CONCERNS OF PRODUCTION, DELIVERY AND USE OF ELECTRIC FOR ELECTRICITY GENERATION, AS WELL AS QUESTIONS ABOUT RELATIVE COSTS OF HYDROGEN AND TECHNOLOGY READINESS.

IN THE INTEREST OF PROVIDING THE EUC WITH MORE INFORMATION ABOUT HYDROGEN PRODUCTION IN ITS POTENTIAL USE AS A FUEL TO GENERATE ELECTRICITY, AUSTIN ENERGY AGREED TO ASSEMBLE THIS PANEL OF SUBJECT MATTER EXPERTS, UH, TO SPEAK TO THE CHALLENGES AND POTENTIAL OF HYDROGEN.

THE FORMAT FOR THIS EVENING IS TO GIVE EACH OF THE, TO INTRODUCE EACH OF THE PANELISTS, AND I HAVE EACH OF THE PANELISTS GIVE BRIEF INTRODUCTORY REMARKS FOR ABOUT TWO MINUTES.

AND THEN I'LL ASK A SERIES OF QUESTIONS, UM, BASED UPON THE DISCUSSION FROM THE NOVEMBER MEETING, AND THEN WE'LL OPEN THE FLOOR TO MEMBERS OF THE COMMISSION FOR ADDITIONAL QUESTIONS.

THAT SAID, PLEASE FEEL FREE TO INTERRUPT US AT ANY TIME DURING THE PRESENTATION.

UM, SO NOW LET ME PLEASE INTRODUCE OUR PANELISTS.

UH, FIRST WE HAVE JEFF BENOIT.

JEFF IS THE VICE PRESIDENT OF CLEAN ENERGY SOLUTIONS FOR MICRO FOR POWER SYSTEMS MANUFACTURING, KNOWN WIDELY IN THE GAS TURBINE POWER PLANT SERVICE INDUSTRY.

AS PSM LOCATED IN JUPITER, FLORIDA, EXCUSE ME, BETWEEN PSM AND GE IS HE HAS HELD TECHNICAL, COMMERCIAL AND BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT LEADERSHIP ROLES IN THE POWER INDUSTRY FOR 38 YEARS, FROM AVIATION NAVY NUCLEAR POWER WIND PROJECT DEVELOPMENT TO HEAVY DUTY GAS TURBINES.

HOWEVER, MOST OF HIS CAREER HAS BEEN SPENT IN THE GAS TURBINE FIELD, DESIGNING, DEVELOPING, AND COMMERCIALIZING INNOVATIVE COMBUSTION SYSTEMS THAT DELIVER ULTRA LOW EMISSIONS IN HYDROGEN FUEL FLEXIBILITY.

JEFF, A HOLDER OF FOUR US PATENTS, OBTAINED HIS BS IN MECHANICAL ENGINEERING FROM CLARKSON UNIVERSITY AND MS IN MECHANICAL ENGINEERING FROM MIT.

NEXT WE HAVE PATRICK DROP ON, UH, ZOOM.

UH, PAT IS THE DIRECTOR OF CLIMATE POLICY AND ADVOCACY AT THE SIERRA CLUB, WHERE HIS TEAM FOCUSES FEDERAL LEGISLATIVE AND ADMINISTRATIVE POLICY FOR DECARB DECARBONIZING THE TRANSPORTATION, INDUSTRIAL, AND POWER SECTORS.

HE'S A VETERAN OF MULTIPLE POLITICAL CAMPAIGNS AND HAS WORKED IN THE ADMINISTRATION ON CLIMATE CHANGE EDUCATION AT NOAA AND IN THE SENATE AS ENERGY AND ENVIRONMENTAL STAFFER.

PRIOR TO HIS WORK IN POLITICS AND POLICY, HE RECEIVED A PHD IN CHEMICAL OCEANOGRAPHY WITH A FOCUS ON CLIMATE SCIENCE.

TO MY RIGHT, WE HAVE MIKE HOFFMAN.

MIKE IS THE ENVIRONMENTAL SERVICES MANAGER AT AUSTIN ENERGY, RESPONSIBLE FOR ENVIRONMENTAL COMPLIANCE ACROSS ALL OF THE UTILITIES OPERATIONS.

PRIOR TO JOINING AE THREE YEARS AGO, MIKE WORKED AS A CONSULTANT FOR 13 YEARS IN ENVIRONMENTAL COMPLIANCE, ENERGY EFFICIENCY, AND RENEWABLE ENERGY.

AND AT THE FAR LEFT, WE HAVE DR. MICHAEL WEBER.

UH, MICHAEL IS THE JOHN J MCTA CENTENNIAL ENGINEERING CHAIR, CHAIR IN ENGINEERING IN THE DEPARTMENT OF MECHANICAL ENGINEERING AT THE UNIVERSITY OF TEXAS AT AUSTIN, AND CTO OF ENERGY IMPACT PARTNERS, A $3 BILLION CLEAN TECH VENTURE FUND.

WEBER'S EXPERTISE SPANS RESEARCH AND EDUCATION AT THE CONVERGENCE OF ENERGY POLICY, EXCUSE ME, ENGINEERING POLICY AND COMMERCIALIZATION ON TOPICS RELATED TO INNOVATION, ENERGY AND THE ENVIRONMENT.

HIS BOOK POWER TRIP, THE STORY OF ENERGY, IS THE BASIS OF AN AWARD-WINNING PBS SERIES, WHICH IS IN ITS SECOND SEASON.

WELCOME TO OUR PANELISTS.

THANK YOU.

UM, SO WE'LL GIVE, UH, EACH OF OUR PANELISTS A CHANCE FOR BRIEF, UH, INTRODUCTORY REMARKS, ABOUT TWO MINUTES EACH.

UM, AGAIN, WE'RE FOCUSING THE DISCUSSION TODAY ON ENVIRONMENTAL IMPACTS COST AND TECHNOLOGY READINESS OF, OF HYDROGEN.

AND, UM, LET'S GO MAYBE IN THE SAME ORDER YOU WERE INTRODUCED.

SO JEFF, PLEASE, THANK YOU VERY MUCH DANA, AND THANK YOU TO THE COMMISSION FOR THIS OPPORTUNITY.

UM, SO I MENTIONED 36 YEARS, SO I OBVIOUSLY STARTED, UH, WHEN I WAS 10 YEARS OLD.

SO RIGHT OUTTA SCHOOL, SO RIGHT OUTTA COLLEGE.

UM, I WANTED TO TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THE HISTORY OF GAS TURBINES.

FIRST, UH, I'M QUITE PASSIONATE ABOUT THESE, UH, ENERGY CONVERSION DEVICES AND, UH, THE FIRST GAS TURBINE WAS ACTUALLY USED.

FIRST COMMERCIAL OPERATION OF GAS TURBINE FOR POWER WAS IN 1939.

SO IT'S BEEN 85 YEARS, UH, OF GAS TURBINES USED FOR COMMERCIAL POWER GENERATION.

THAT UNIT WAS FOUR MEGAWATTS, 17% SIMPLE CYCLE EFFICIENCY.

AND WHERE ARE WE TODAY? WE HAVE ONE GAS TURBINE, UH, TODAY BY SIEMENS ENERGY THAT CAN PRODUCE ALMOST 600 MEGAWATTS AT 43%.

UH, SIMPLE CYCLE EFFICIENCY.

YOU TIE THAT INTO A COMBINED CYCLE PLANT IN, YOU'RE APPROACHING 64%.

SO A TREMENDOUS, UH,

[00:50:01]

GR UH, GROWTH IN, UH, THE PAST EIGHT AND A HALF DECADES OF USE.

UH, IN TODAY'S POWER GENERATION OR CAPACITY IN THE UNITED STATES, THERE'S ABOUT, UH, 1,270 GIGAWATTS OF POWER, WIND, SOLAR, NUCLEAR HYDRO, COAL AND GAS TURBINES.

GAS TURBINES IS ABOUT 480 GIGAWATTS OF THAT VERY DISPATCHABLE, FLEXIBLE SOME BASE LOAD.

UM, AND THAT REPRESENTED IN 2022, ABOUT 38% OF THE POWER GENERATED IN OUR COUNTRY.

AND WHAT WE'RE SEEING TODAY, AND WHAT I WANTED TO SPEAK TO WAS, UH, THE FACT THAT, UH, THIS DEVICE IS TRANSITIONING.

IT'S INCREDIBLY FLEXIBLE.

UH, IT'S DISPATCHABLE.

IT'S, UH, THERE'S SO MANY OF THEM, UH, CURRENTLY, UH, INSTALLED TODAY.

AND WHAT THEY'RE DOING IS THEY ARE BECOMING A TRUE COMPLIMENT, UH, PARTNER WITH RENEWABLES.

UH, WEATHER DEPENDENT RENEWABLES NEED TO BE BACKED UP.

UH, AND, UH, THERE NEEDS TO BE THAT SUPPORT MECHANISM OF DISPATCHABLE POWER, UH, IN ORDER TO ASSURE THE RELIABILITY THAT WE NEED.

WHAT'S VERY IMPORTANT ABOUT, UH, THESE GAS TURBINES IS THEY DO HAVE TO OPERATE WITH VERY LOW EMISSIONS.

UH, AND OVER THE MANY DECADES, THE TECHNOLOGY THAT'S BEEN PUT IN THESE GAS TURBINES, UH, HAS BEEN TRULY REMARKABLE TO GO FROM A BASE LOADED UNIT, UH, TO WHERE IT CAN OPERATE IN A, JUST A VASTLY WIDE RANGE, UH, IN TERMS OF SPEED OF LOADING, UH, TO THE POINT WHERE THEY'RE AT MINIMUM ENVIRONMENTAL LOAD.

BUT THE ONE THING THAT'S REALLY COMING TO THE FORE IS THE TECHNOLOGY FOR HYDROGEN COMBUSTION, NOT ONLY IN NEW GAS TURBINES, BUT FOR RETROFITS.

UH, THINK OF THE INSTALLED GAS FLEETS, UH, THAT ARE THERE EASILY RETROFITTABLE, UH, TO BE HYDROGEN READY.

AND WE'LL TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT HYDROGEN READY, HYDROGEN CAPABLE, UH, AND AS WE GO ALONG WITH PANEL.

SO THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

THANK YOU.

PAT, WOULD YOU LIKE TO GO NEXT? SURE.

UM, CAN YOU HEAR ME ALL RIGHT? JUST WANNA DOUBLE CHECK.

GREAT.

YES.

UM, WELL, THANKS FOR HAVING ME THIS EVENING.

UM, SORRY I CAN'T BE THERE IN PERSON WITH YOU ALL.

I'M BA I'M BASED IN WASHINGTON, DC UM, BUT I'M REALLY LOOKING FORWARD TO THIS CONVERSATION, HEARING MORE FROM THE OTHER PANELISTS.

UM, I'D ALSO SAY I SECOND IN EVERYTHING THAT ABBY JUST SAID IN HER PREVIOUS PRESENTATION, UM, YOU'LL PROBABLY HEAR ME REPEAT A LOT OF IT.

UM, SO, UH, FIRST, YOU KNOW, I REALLY APPRECIATE THE EFFORTS TO ELIMINATE, UM, AUSTIN ENERGY'S CARBON EMISSIONS AND FIND RELIABLE AND AFFORDABLE OPTIONS FOR THE PUBLIC.

UH, MORE UTILITIES SHOULD OBVIOUSLY FALL A SUIT, UM, BECAUSE WE KNOW WE NEED TO RAPIDLY MOVE AWAY FROM FOSSIL FUELS, AND PARTICULARLY, PARTICULARLY WE NEED A RAPID, INSIGNIFICANT DECREASE IN METHANE EMISSIONS OVER THE NEXT DECADE OR SO.

UM, AT SIERRA CLUB, YOU KNOW, WE THINK THAT HYDROGEN CAN POTENTIALLY PLAY A ROLE IN OUR ECONOMY'S DECARBONIZATION EFFORTS, UH, PARTICULARLY FOR SECTORS OR APPLICATIONS WHERE DIRECT, DIRECT ELECTRIFICATION ISN'T CURRENTLY AN OPTION.

UM, BUT THE DEVIL, YOU KNOW, IS REALLY IN THE DETAILS.

AND BOTH THE HYDROGEN AND USE AND, AND THE METHOD OF PRODUCTION ARE KEY CONSIDERATIONS IN THESE CONVERSATIONS.

UM, I THINK THE QUESTION FOR HYDROGEN REALLY SHOULD BE NOT, UH, SHOULDN'T BE CAN IT BE USED FOR APPLICATION X OR APPLICATION Y, BUT RATHER SHOULD IT BE USED.

UM, AND I KNOW WE'RE GONNA GET INTO MORE DETAILS LATER, UH, BUT THERE'S A LOT OF CONCERNS ABOUT HYDROGEN PRODUCTION, LIMITED SUPPLY, NOX EMISSIONS, UM, AND OVERALL EFFICIENCY RELATIVE TO, TO OTHER OPTIONS.

AND SO WE FEEL THAT, YOU KNOW, BASE LOAD POWER REALLY IS NOT CONSIDERED A GOOD OPTION OR A GOOD USE FOR HYDROGEN.

UM, I ALSO WANTED TO BE CLEAR THAT THE EMISSIONS BENEFITS OF BLENDING HYDROGEN WITH NATURAL GAS HAVE SOMETIMES BEEN EXAGGERATED AND IN MANY CASES CAN ACTUALLY INCREASE OVERALL EMISSIONS.

THAT'S IF YOU'RE LOOKING AT CERTAIN TYPES OF HYDROGEN, UM, I KNOW YOU ALL ARE FOCUSED ON GREEN HYDROGEN.

UM, BUT THE POINT IS THAT, UH, YOU KNOW, IT'S AN ENERGY INTENSIVE PROCESS, AND EVEN GREEN HYDROGEN, UM, IF IT'S NOT MADE WITH STRICT REQUIREMENTS LIKE ABBY HAD MENTIONED, CAN ACTUALLY LEAD TO AN OVERALL INCREASE IN GRID EMISSIONS.

UM, AND THE LAST THING I REALLY WANTED TO EMPHASIZE, UM, IS THAT THERE'S NUMEROUS AND CONSIDERABLE EQUITY CONCERNS AROUND BUILDING THESE NEW GAS PLANTS, UM, FROM THE EXPANSION OF FOSSIL FUEL INFRASTRUCTURE TO THE BUILD OUT OF NEW HYDROGEN INFRASTRUCTURE THAT WOULD BE NECESSARY.

AND THOSE CONCERNS STILL EXIST EVEN IF YOU DO SWITCH TO A HUNDRED PERCENT HYDROGEN OPERATION DOWN THE ROAD.

SO I'D REALLY ENCOURAGE, UM, YOU TO, TO TAKE INTO EFFECT THAT, THAT COMMUNITIES HAVE TO BE MEANINGFULLY ENGAGED IN EVERY STEP OF THE PROCESS TO ENSURE THEIR CONCERNS ARE HEARD AND INCLUDED ON THIS.

UM, AGAIN, THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

I LOOK FORWARD TO GETTING, UH, MORE INTO THE DETAILS, UH, IN A LITTLE BIT.

THANK YOU, PAT.

MIKE.

THANK YOU DANA.

AND THANK YOU TO THE COMMISSION FOR THE OPPORTUNITY TO, UH, MEET WITH YOU THIS EVENING.

SO

[00:55:01]

I WAS ASKED TO COME TO ADDRESS SPECIFICALLY THE ENVIRONMENTAL ISSUES ASSOCIATED WITH HYDROGEN PRODUCTION AND HYDROGEN COMBUSTION AS A, UH, COAL-FIRED FUEL FOR POWER PRODUCTION.

SO, UM, YOU'LL PROBABLY HEAR A LOT OF THE SAME THINGS THAT ABBY PRESENTED AS, AS MY MAIN TOPICS OF FOCUS, UH, BUT JUST TO GO THROUGH THE FOUR KIND OF MAIN TOPICS THAT I'LL BE DISCUSSING THIS EVENING.

NUMBER ONE, THE NOX EMISSIONS.

UM, AS WE HEARD BEFORE, THE, UM, HYDROGEN IS A FUEL JUST BURNS HOTTER THAN NATURAL GAS.

AND BECAUSE NOX, UM, PRODUCTION IS A, IS A FUNCTION OF HEAT, UM, THAT ADDED HEAT CREATES, UH, ADDED NOX EMISSIONS.

SO, UM, NOX EMISSIONS ARE A PROBLEM FOR A NUMBER OF DIFFERENT REASONS.

UM, THEY CONTRIBUTE TO THE, UH, FORMATION OF GROUND LEVEL OZONE, WHICH IS, UH, ALL OF, YOU KNOW, DURING OZONE ACTION PERIODS.

AND, AND PERIODS IN THE SUMMERTIME, UH, CAN CREATE RESPIRATORY ISSUES, ESPECIALLY FOR OLDER ADULTS, FOR CHILDREN, UH, FOR PEOPLE WHO WORK OUTDOORS PRIMARILY.

UM, ALSO NOX EMISSIONS COME WITH INCREASING COST OF COMPLIANCE WITH MORE ENVIRONMENTAL REGULATIONS THAT ARE COMING OUT, SPECIFICALLY LOOKING AT HOW TO CONTROL NOX EMISSIONS THROUGH A VARIETY OF DIFFERENT REGULATORY MECHANISMS HERE LOCALLY.

WE ALSO HAVE THE ISSUE OF, UM, THE N EIGHT HOUR OZONE NON-ATTAINMENT, UH, LEVEL.

SO WE'RE CURRENTLY GETTING VERY CLOSE IN TRAVIS COUNTY TO, UM, TO THE EIGHT HOUR OZONE NON-ATTAINMENT THRESHOLD.

AND CERTAINLY ANY NEW, UM, NOX EMISSIONS LOCALLY WILL, UH, WILL EXACERBATE THAT ISSUE.

UM, AS JEFF POINTED OUT, NOX EMISSIONS AS A, AS A COFIRED FUEL WITH HYDROGEN, IT'S A SOLVABLE PROBLEM.

THEY'RE WORKING RIGHT NOW.

THE, ACTUALLY THE THREE LARGEST, UM, TURBINE MANUFACTURERS, GE, SIEMENS MITSUBISHI, THEY'VE ALL MADE PUBLICLY AVAILABLE STATEMENTS KIND OF COMMITTING TO, UM, ACHIEVING 100% HYDROGEN COAL-FIRE, UM, OR ACTUALLY 100% HYDROGEN AS THE FUEL, WHILE ALSO MINIMIZING THE NOX EMISSIONS ASSOCIATED WITH THAT BY, UM, TECHNOLOGY ADVANCES IN THE COMBUSTOR ITSELF.

UM, THE SECOND TOPIC, GREENHOUSE GAS EMISSIONS.

UM, YOU KNOW, THE US RIGHT NOW IN TERMS OF ITS DECARBONIZATION STRATEGY IS, IS BASICALLY ALL IN FOR, UH, FOR HYDROGEN AND SPECIFICALLY FOR CLEAN HYDROGEN, UM, AS ONE OF THE CRITICAL COMPONENTS OF ITS DECARBONIZATION STRATEGY, UH, AS OTHERS HAVE MENTIONED, YOU KNOW, MOST SPECIFICALLY FOR THOSE APPLICATIONS THAT REQUIRE HIGH HEAT, SO CEMENT, UH, MANUFACTURING, STEEL PRODUCTION, THOSE TYPES OF INDUSTRIES, HEAVY TRANSPORT AS WELL.

UM, BUT YOU, YOU KNOW, YOU ALSO HAVE, UM, HYDROGEN GAS LEAKAGE, WHICH AS ABBY MENTIONED, UM, THE HYDROXYL RADICALS IN THE ATMOSPHERE ARE THE NATURAL SINK FOR METHANE GAS.

UH, SO WHEN HYDROGEN LEAKS FROM ANY, ANY POINT OF THE LIFECYCLE FROM PRODUCTION TO END USE, UH, IT EFFECTIVELY BINDS TO THOSE NATURALLY OCCURRING HYDROXYL RADICALS AND, UH, EFFECTIVELY IS AN INDIRECT GREENHOUSE GAS.

SO IT, UH, EXTENDS THE, THE LIFE OF METHANE IN THE ATMOSPHERE.

UM, BEST ESTIMATES ON LEAKAGE RATES, HOWEVER, ARE TWO TO 6%.

YOU KNOW, WE HAVE A THOUSAND MILES PLUS OF DEDICATED HYDROGEN PIPELINES HERE IN TEXAS, ALONE IN THE GULF COAST.

UM, IT'S AN ISSUE THAT THE INDUSTRY IS AWARE OF.

UM, THEY, YOU KNOW, THEY'RE SENSITIVE TO IGNITION RISK, SO THEY DO MONITOR, UH, FOR LEAKAGE.

BUT AS ABBY MENTIONED, UH, YOU KNOW, THE, THE, THE SENSITIVITY OF, OF THAT MONITORING, UH, CAN AND SHOULD AND LIKELY WILL BE IMPROVED AS THE INDUSTRY MATURES.

NUMBER THREE, HYDROGEN PRODUCTION AND WATER USE.

I THINK ABBY DID A, A PRETTY GOOD SUMMARY OF, OF THAT ISSUE.

BUT ESSENTIALLY JUST THE, THE, THE CHEMISTRY, NINE LITERS OF DEIONIZED WATER TO PRODUCE ONE KILOGRAM OF HYDROGEN, UH, PLUS ANY PROCESS LOSSES THAT MIGHT BE INCURRED AT THE SAME TIME.

UM, SO, UM,