* This transcript was created by voice-to-text technology. The transcript has not been edited for errors or omissions, it is for reference only and is not the official minutes of the meeting.
          [00:00:01]
          HELLO? 
          [CALL MEETING TO ORDER]
HELLO EVERYONE. 
          I COUNT A QUORUM. 
          YES. 
          UM, SO WE WILL GO AHEAD AND GET STARTED. 
          THANKS, UH, FOR YOUR, FOR BEING HERE TONIGHT. 
          UM, IT IS 6:04 PM I'M CALLING THIS MEETING OF THE RESOURCE MANAGEMENT COMMISSION TO ORDER. 
          UM, ARE THERE ANY SPEAKERS SIGNED UP FOR PUBLIC COMMENT? NO. 
          ALL 
          [1. Approve the minutes of the Regular Called Resource Management Commission Meeting on September 15, 2026.]
RIGHT. 
          BEING NONE, WE WILL DIVE INTO THE FIRST ORDER OF BUSINESS ON OUR AGENDA, WHICH IS TO AP APPROVAL OF THE MINUTES FROM THE SEPTEMBER 15TH MEETING. 
          DO I HAVE A MOTION? SO MOVED. 
          COMMISSIONER SILVERSTEIN MOVES, COMMISSIONER LUKI SECONDS. 
          UM, IS THERE ANY DISCUSSION ON THE MEETING, MEETING MINUTES FROM LAST MONTH? YOU SHOULD HAVE RECEIVED A COPY IN YOUR PACKET AND WE'RE BRINGING THOSE UP ON THE SCREEN FOR ANYONE WHO WANTS TO TAKE A GANDER ANDER. 
          UH, ALRIGHT. 
          I DON'T HEAR ANY QUESTIONS OR COMMENTS OR, UH, EDITS TO THE MINUTES. 
          SO WE WILL VOTE. 
          ALL IN FAVOR OF ADOPTING THE MINUTES FROM THE SEPTEMBER 15TH, 2026 MEETING. 
          PLEASE RAISE YOUR HAND. 
          UH, AND IF YOU ARE JOINING US REMOTELY, PLEASE UH, TURN ON YOUR CAMERA TO VOTE. 
          GREAT, THANK YOU. 
          1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8. 
          I, I MESSED MY COUNT UP. 
          IS THAT EIGHT OR NINE ? EIGHT. 
          ALRIGHT. 
          UH, ANY OPPOSED? NO. 
          OKAY. 
          THE MINUTES ARE ADOPTED. 
          EIGHT ZERO. 
          THANK YOU SO MUCH. 
          ALRIGHT. 
          UH, MOVING 
          [2. Staff briefing on the Base Power Agreement by Pat Sweeney, Interim Vice President, Market Operations & Resource Planning, Austin Energy.]
INTO OUR BRIEFINGS. 
          UH, FIRST UP WE DO HAVE A STAFF BRIEFING ON THE BASE POWER AGREEMENT, UM, BY PAT SWEENEY. 
          PLEASE MAKE YOUR WAY TO THE PODIUM. 
          THANK YOU FOR BEING HERE. 
          HERE WE GO. 
          GOOD EVENING COMMISSIONERS. 
          I'M PAT SWEENEY. 
          I'M INTERIM VICE PRESIDENT FOR ENERGY MARKET OPERATIONS AND I'M HERE TO GIVE YOU AN OVERVIEW OF THE, UH, RECENT BASE, UH, BATTERY STORAGE AGREEMENT, UH, THAT AUSTIN ENERGY ENGAGED IN. 
          UH, WE'LL GO TO THE NEXT SLIDE. 
          UM, SOME KEY ASPECTS OF THIS AGREEMENT. 
          UH, IT WAS SOURCED FROM A RFP THAT WAS DONE IN 2025, UH, AND APPROVED BY COUNCIL BACK IN THIS PAST APRIL. 
          UH, IT'S A WHOLESALE BATTERY STORAGE AGREEMENT FOR UP TO 40 MEGAWATTS. 
          UH, IT'S A 10 YEAR AGREEMENT, ABOUT $4 MILLION A YEAR IS WHAT WE'LL PAYING UNDER THAT AGREEMENT. 
          IT'S MULTI-LOCATION DISTRIBUTION VOLTAGE CONNECTIONS, AND THAT'S VERSUS A LARGE SINGLE SITE, UH, HIGH VOLTAGE, UH, TRANSMISSION CONNECTION OR UTILITY SCALE TYPE, UH, BATTERY INSTALLATION. 
          UH, IT PROVIDES WHOLESALE COST RISK MANAGEMENT TO THE AUSTIN ENERGY LOAD ZONE, AND IT CONTRIBUTES TO OUR 125 MEGAWATT, UH, LOCAL BATTERY STORAGE GOAL IN THE RESOURCE GENERATION CLIMATE PROTECTION PLAN. 
          NEXT SLIDE. 
          UH, SOME THINGS THAT WE NEED TO BE CLEAR ABOUT FROM A CUSTOMER ENGAGEMENT STANDPOINT. 
          UH, IT'S BASE THAT'S RESPONSIBLE FOR ACQUIRING CUSTOMERS AND CONTACT CONTRACTS WITH THEM TO INSTALL AND MAINTAIN THE BATTERIES. 
          AUSTIN ENERGY IS NOT A PARTY TO THOSE AGREEMENTS, NOR DOES IT DIRECT BASE TO SPECIFIC AREAS OR SPECIFIC CUSTOMERS. 
          EACH BATTERY SYSTEM IS INSTALLED IN FRONT OF THE METER, MEANING THE CUSTOMER, AUSTIN ENERGY CUSTOMER BILL IS NOT IMPACTED BY, UH, THE BASE BATTERY ITSELF. 
          OKAY, NEXT SLIDE. 
          FROM A DEPLOYMENT PERSPECTIVE, UH, THIS WILL LOOK LIKE 2000 TO 2,500, UH, INSTALLATIONS AT PARTICIPATING CUSTOMER LOCATIONS. 
          WHEN FULLY, UH, DEPLOYED UP TO 40, UH, OUT TO 40 MEGAWATTS, IT WILL BE ABOUT AN UP TO 18 MONTH PERIOD FOR THEM TO GET TO 40 MEGAWATTS. 
          UH, THE INSTALLATIONS ACTUALLY BEGAN THIS SUMMER. 
          UH, SO IT'S UNDERWAY. 
          UH, THE PARTICIPATING CUSTOMERS HAVE A PORTION OF THE BATTERY RESERVE FOR THEIR USE. 
          UH, IF AN OUTAGE OCCURS AND AUSTIN ENERGY IS PAYING FOR AND HAS FULL ACCESS AND USE TO THE OTHER PORTION OF THE BATTERY, UH, THERE IS A REFERENCE HERE TO THE BASE WEBSITE. 
          UH, THERE'S QUITE A BIT OF DETAILED INFORMATION THERE IF YOU WANT TO DIG DEEP INTO HOW THEY GO ABOUT THEIR BUSINESS, THE PARTICULARS AROUND THE, THE BATTERIES THEMSELVES AND THE AGREEMENTS THAT THEY, UH, USE. 
          UH, NEXT SLIDE PLEASE. 
          SO, FROM A USAGE PERSPECTIVE, 
          [00:05:01]
AUSTIN ENERGY, AS I SAID, HAS OPERATIONAL CONTROL OVER ITS PORTION OF THE BATTERY, AND THAT INCLUDES THE TIMING AND RATE OF DISCHARGE AND, UH, RECHARGE. 
          SO DISCHARGE AND CHARGE DURATIONS ARE UP, UP, UP TO 1.5 HOURS AT THE MAXIMUM CAPACITY OF 40 MEGAWATTS. 
          THE WAY WE GET BENEFITS FROM THAT, UH, AUSTIN ENERGY DOES OUR CUSTOMERS, IT'S THROUGH PRICE ARBITRAGE THAT'S CHARGING AT A LOWER PRICE AND DISCHARGING AT A HIGHER PRICE. 
          SO THAT PRICE DIFFERENCE, UH, PROVIDES A BENEFIT. 
          UH, THERE'S ALSO COINCIDENT PEAK REDUCTION, UH, THAT'S DISCHARGING DURING COINCIDENT PEAK PERIODS, WHETHER IT'S A FOUR COINCIDENT PEAK, WHICH IS THE CURRENT, UH, APPROACH OR THE FORTHCOMING 12 CP OR 12 COINCIDENT PEAK, WHICH WILL BE DONE EACH MONTH. 
          UH, WHERE IT REDUCES EFFECT HAS THE EFFECT OF REDUCING THE AUSTIN ENERGY LOAD ZONE DEMAND. 
          AND THAT'S WHAT DETERMINES, UH, DURING THOSE PEAK PERIODS. 
          THAT'S WHAT DETERMINES THE AUSTIN ENERGY, UH, TRANSMISSION COST OF SERVICE THAT GOES TO ALL OF OUR CUSTOMERS FOR USE OF THE ERCOT TRANSMISSION GRID. 
          UH, FROM A ANOTHER PERSPECTIVE THAT WE HAVE THERE, ANOTHER OPPORTUNITY IS ERCOT AGGREGATION ALL, OR SOME OF THE PORTFOLIO CAN BE AGGREGATED AND SOLD TO ERCOT FOR VARIOUS SERVICES THAT CAN INCLUDE, UH, UH, NONS SPIN FOR EXAMPLE, OR EMERGENCY RESPONSE AND SOME OTHERS. 
          SO WHAT WE'LL BE DOING WITH THESE OPPORTUNITIES IS MAXIMIZING THE VALUE BETWEEN THE THREE OF THEM. 
          SO WE, WE HAVE OP OPPORTUNITIES TO DEPLOY THE, THE BATTERY SEVERAL TIMES OR SEVERAL CYCLES THROUGHOUT THE COURSE OF THE YEAR. 
          SO WE CAN TAKE A, TAKE ADVANTAGE OF ANY OF THESE AND ALL THESE TO SOME EXTENT. 
          WE'LL GO TO THE NEXT SLIDE. 
          SO FROM A FUTURE PERSPECTIVE FOR ALL OUR CUSTOMERS AND BENEFITS, UH, SO THE BASE BATTERY PORTFOLIO WILL GENERATE BENEFITS FOR ALL OF OUR CUSTOMERS, UH, NOT JUST THOSE WHO HAVE A BATTERY. 
          SO AS I MENTIONED BEFORE, FOR ONE GOOD EXAMPLE IS THE, UH, FOUR CP BENEFIT. 
          THAT'S SOMETHING THAT'S CHARGED ALL OF OUR CUSTOMERS FOR, FOR THE TRANSMISSION COST OF SERVICE. 
          AND AGAIN, THOSE, THOSE REVENUES DERIVED FROM ARBITRAGE WILL ALSO SERVE TO REDUCE THE POWER SUPPLY ADJUSTMENT COST AS WELL AS ANY, UH, SALES WE DO OF THE BATTERY SYSTEMS TO ERCOT. 
          SO ALL THAT REVENUE FROM THE BATTERIES AND OR DEMAND OFFSET WILL BE, UH, FLOWED THROUGH EITHER THE PSA ON THE, ON THE ENERGY ARBITRAGE OR THE, UH, SALES COMPONENT OR SEEN AS A COST REDUCTION TO THE TRANSMISSION COST OF SERVICE, UH, IN THAT CATEGORY. 
          THE OTHER BENEFIT THAT WE HAVE, UH, AS YOU CAN SEE, WE JUST GOT THE COUNCIL AGREEMENT TO, OR COUNCIL APPROVAL BACK IN APRIL, AND THE BATTERIES HAVE BEEN IN A DEPLOYMENT STATE SINCE JULY. 
          SO, UH, WE'RE ALREADY, WE ALREADY HAVE 'EM OUT THERE, THEY'RE ALREADY OPERATING. 
          I CAN'T GIVE YOU A PRECISE NUMBER, BUT I CAN TELL YOU THERE IT'S IN THE SEVERAL HUNDREDS, UH, OF, OF INSTALLATIONS, UH, ALREADY. 
          UH, WHAT THAT DOES, AS YOU MAY RECALL, WE HAVE TWO OTHER, UH, UTILITY SCALE BATTERY AGREEMENTS THAT WERE APPROVED EARLIER THIS YEAR AND LAST YEAR, UH, ONE OF THEM WAS FOR A HUNDRED MEGAWATT, UH, FOUR HOUR BATTERY, UH, SYSTEM. 
          UH, ANOTHER ONE FOR TWO HOUR, I'M SORRY, A 200 MEGAWATT, UH, TWO HOUR BATTERY SYSTEM, UH, APPROVED LATER OR EARLIER THIS YEAR. 
          THOSE ARE UTILITY SCALE CONNECTED AT TRANSMISSION AND THEY'LL BE COMING ONLINE IN, UH, 2027 TO 2030 TIMEFRAME. 
          AND SO HAD THE BASE DEPLOYMENT, UH, BECAUSE IT'LL BE MUCH QUICKER AND ALREADY IS UNDERWAY AND ACTUALLY IN OPERATION, GIVES US AN OPPORTUNITY TO EXERCISE THOSE MECHANICS AT THE SMALLER SCALE AND TEST OUT OUR APPROACH AND DEVELOP OUR, AND HONE OUR STRATEGY THAT WILL APPLY TO THE LARGER BATTERIES WHEN THEY COME ONLINE. 
          UH, LASTLY, AUSTIN ENERGY WILL CONSIDER HOW ADDITIONAL DISTRIBUTED BATTERY RESOURCES COULD PROVIDE BENEFITS, WHETHER THROUGH INCREASED SCALE AND OR TARGETED PLACEMENTS FOCUSED ON GRID GRID RESILIENCY IN THE FUTURE. 
          SO THIS IS LIKELY NOT, THIS IS THE BEGINNING, NOT NECESSARILY THE END OF THIS TYPE OF DISTRIBUTED APPLICATION. 
          AND I BELIEVE THAT'S MY SLIDE DECK. 
          YES. 
          THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THE PRESENTATION. 
          UM, THERE'S A LOT OF INTEREST ON THIS COMMISSION ABOUT THIS PROGRAM IN PARTICULAR AND, AND BATTERY PROGRAMS IN GENERAL. 
          UM, UH, LET ME START WITH TO MY RIGHT VICE CHAIR ROBBINS AND THEN, UH, COMMISSIONER SILVERSTEIN WITH QUESTIONS. 
          HELLO, UH, MS. SHAR, COULD YOU PLEASE HAND MR. SWEENEY? UH, THE, THE RESOLUTION, RESOLUTION PASSED? OKAY. 
          UM, THIS IS A RESOLUTION THAT, UH, THE COMMISSION PASSED IN JULY AND I'M NOT EXPECTING YOU TO SPEED READ IT OR UNDERSTAND IT COMPLETELY UNLESS YOU'VE ALREADY SEEN IT. 
          SO I'M NOT TRYING TO 
          [00:10:01]
BLINDSIDE YOU OR PUT YOU ON THE SPOT. 
          WHAT I AM TRYING TO DO IS SAY THAT THIS IS OUR CONSIDERED POSITION ON BATTERIES, WHICH IS, UM, DISCLOSURE. 
          UH, WE WOULD LIKE THINGS TO BE AS TRANSPARENT AS POSSIBLE AND THIS DETAILS IT PRETTY THOROUGHLY. 
          UH, AND I WOULD, THERE IS THE SECOND POINT I WANNA MAKE IS THAT, UM, REGARDING THIS RESOLUTION IS THAT THERE IS A, A, UM, AN ONLINE RENEWABLE ENERGY DISCLOSURE, UH, WEBSITE FOR AUSTIN ENERGY NOW, AND IT IS PROFOUNDLY DETAILED AND VERY EDUCATIONAL, AND I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY WE COULD NOT DO THE SAME THING FOR OUR STORAGE ASSETS. 
          UM, COUPLE OTHER POINTS I WANNA MAKE IS THAT WHEN I LOOKED AT THIS, I BASE POWER WAS ROUGHLY 19, UH, ABOVE 19 CENTS A KILOWATT HOUR AND ARBITRAGE, AND YOU HEARD ME MAKE THIS PRESENTATION AT COUNCIL MR. SWEENEY ARBITRAGE IN A VERY HIGH POWER COST YEAR 2022, UH, WAS MORE LIKE IT COULD NOT BEGIN TO PAY FOR, UH, FOR THIS. 
          AND SO I AM, I WOULD VERY MUCH LIKE TO BELIEVE THAT THIS IS COST EFFECTIVE AND I'M NOT SAYING IT ISN'T COST EFFECTIVE, BUT I REALLY WOULD LIKE AUSTIN ENERGY TO PROVE IT TO US IN MORE SPECIFICITY THAN YOU HAVE GIVEN US TONIGHT. 
          SO THOSE ARE MY COMMENTS. 
          THANK YOU. 
          I APPRECIATE YOUR THOUGHTS AND I'M SURE, UH, THE AUSTIN ENERGY LEADERSHIP TEAM'S GOING TO TAKE CERTAINLY THE RESOLUTION AND THOSE THOUGHTS INTO CONSIDERATION AS WE GO FORWARD. 
          COMMISSIONER SILVERSTEIN. 
          THANK YOU MR. SWEENEY. 
          OH, AM I TURNED ON ABOUT THAT? YEAH. 
          UM, THANK YOU AND THANK YOU FOR TAKING THIS JOB BACK UP, . 
          YOU'RE WELCOME. 
          THANKS. 
          GATHER YOU'RE A RERUN AND WE'RE HAPPY TO HAVE YOU BACK. 
          UM, HE IS NOT A RERUN . 
          WELL, IT'S BETTER THAN THE RETREAD. 
          SO, UH, WELCOME BACK. 
          I'LL TAKE IT. 
          LET'S, LET'S PUT IT THAT WAY. 
          UM, I HAVE A FEW MECHANICS QUESTIONS FOR YOU. 
          IF I, WE CAN, UM, DOES AUSTIN AND THE CITY PUT THE BASE BATTERIES THROUGH THE SAME PERMITTING AND INTERCONNECTION ANALYSIS PROCESS THAT YOU DO FOR REGULAR CUSTOMER SOLAR AND OR BATTERY INSTALLATIONS? THEY, THEY ARE, THEY ARE REQUIRED TO MEET ALL OF THE STANDARD INTERCONNECTION REQUIREMENTS AND SO THEY'RE STUDIED, UH, FOR COMPATIBILITY. 
          UM, BUT WHEN THEY PUT FORTH AN INSTALLATION, DO THEY HAVE THE SAME PRIORITY WITH RESPECT TO TAKING UP FEEDER SPACE AND OR ARE THEY GETTING THE SAME PROCESSING SPEED AS NORMAL CU OTHER CUSTOMERS APPLICATIONS? THEY DON'T MOVE TO THE FRONT OF LINE AND THEY'RE NOT GIVEN ANY PRIORITY ON THE SYSTEM ITSELF. 
          THEY'RE TREATED THE SAME WAY AS ANY OTHER INTERCONNECTING. 
          IF THERE WAS A DIFFERENT BATTERY SYSTEM, FOR EXAMPLE, IT WOULD BE EVALUATED THE SAME WAY. 
          THANK YOU. 
          UM, ARE THERE ANY DIFFERENT FEEDER READINESS OR FEEDER MAXIMUM BATTERY CAPACITY LIMITS ON AUSTIN FEEDERS FOR BASE BATTERIES OR OTHERS? SO IT SAYS CHANGING NOW BATTERY. 
          MOVING A LITTLE FAR OUTTA MY, A LITTLE BIT OUTTA MY WHEELHOUSE, BUT I CAN TELL YOU THAT THE INTERCONNECTION STUDY PROCESS, IT DOES TAKE INTO ACCOUNT THE FEEDER CAPABILITY AND NA NAMELY THE TRANSFORMER CAPABILITY THAT IS AT THE LOCAL INSTALLATION. 
          AND SO IT'S A FUNCTION OF, IT'S PRIMARILY A FUNCTION OF THE AGE AND CAPABILITY OF THAT TRANSFORMER. 
          AND THEN HOW MANY, UH, INSTALLATIONS OF THESE BATTERIES MIGHT BE CONNECTED TO THAT PARTICULAR TRANSFORMER THAT THAT IS PART OF THE INTERCONNECTION STUDY PROCESS. 
          IF AUSTIN, I UNDERSTAND THAT AUSTIN ENERGY IS NOT EXERTING ANY CONTROL OR INFLUENCE ON WHICH CUSTOMER'S BASE GIVES THESE TO, BUT IF YOU DID, WOULD YOUR COLLEAGUES IN THE DISTRIBUTION MANAGEMENT SYSTEM MANAGEMENT GROUP 
          [00:15:01]
HAVE ANY PREFERENCES OR WITH RESPECT TO WHICH FEEDERS OR WHICH CUSTOMER LOCATIONS OR CUSTOMER CLASSES WENT TO? I THINK, I THINK THAT'S SOMETHING THAT IS SOMETHING THAT'S BEING CONSIDERED GONNA BE LOOKED AT IN THE FUTURE ABOUT WHETHER THERE'S SPECIFIC, UH, FOR GEOGRAPHIC DEPLOYMENTS THAT MIGHT MAKE SENSE FOR A RESILIENCY BENEFIT SPECIFIC TO THE SYSTEM. 
          SO, SO DOES, WELL A RESILIENCE BENEFIT IS DIFFERENT. 
          I'M THINKING ABOUT BOTH SYSTEM CAPACITY MANAGEMENT MM-HMM . 
          AND, AND DISTRIBUTION FEEDER EXPANSION AND OR RELIABILITY SECURITY, EXCUSE ME. 
          BUT, BUT ALSO I'M WONDERING WHETHER AT SOME POINT Y'ALL WILL BE REVIEWING THE BASE CUSTOMER ACQUISITION AND ADOPTION, UM, NUMBERS AND LOCATIONS AND CONSIDERING WHETHER IT'S APPROPRIATE TO GIVE ADDITIONAL GUIDANCE OR DIRECTION AND WHETHER THIS CONTRACT CAN EVEN BE MODIFIED SO THAT YOU CAN BE MORE ASSERTIVE WITH RESPECT TO LET'S GET MORE OF THESE INTO MULTIFAMILY HOUSING, OR LET'S GET MORE OF THESE INTO THIS NEIGHBORHOOD THAT'S BEEN UNDERSERVED. 
          I I THINK ALL OF THOSE QUESTIONS ARE ON THE TABLE FOR WHATEVER FUTURE ITERATION OF BASE OR SIMILAR TYPE OF AGREEMENT MIGHT COME UP. 
          THANK YOU. 
          ONE LAST QUESTION, I PROMISE. 
          ARE THERE ANY LIMITS ON THE NUMBER OF DISCHARGE CYCLES THAT AUSTIN ENERGY CAN PUT THESE THROUGH? THERE ARE, UH, AND THAT'S TYPICAL BATTERY SYSTEMS, BATTERY SYSTEM, THESE UTILITY SCALE AND TYPICAL BATTERIES, THEY DEGRADE WITH CYCLING. 
          AND SO THERE ARE LIMITS IN THE AGREEMENT TO THAT. 
          UH, IT'S A SIZABLE LIMIT, UH, THAT GIVES US AMPLE OPPORTUNITY TO MAXIMIZE THE BENEFITS THAT I OUTLINED IN ALL THREE CATEGORIES. 
          OKAY. 
          OH, CAN I ASK ONE MORE? THANK YOU. 
          ON A ROLL. 
          YOU I PROMISE. 
          SO THANK YOU. 
          THE, UM, NO, I JUST FORGOT IT. 
          GO AHEAD, TREY. 
          I'LL, I'LL THINK OF IT. 
          THANKS AGAIN, AGAIN FOR, UH, FOR THE PRESENTATION AND SURE. 
          UH, I WAS CURIOUS ABOUT THE, THE AGREEMENT AND THE, THE $4 MILLION PER YEAR. 
          IS THAT, LIKE, ARE YOU GUYS EXPECTING THAT THIS WILL, THAT THAT IS LIKE AN INVESTMENT THAT WILL GET PAID BACK IN SORT OF LIKE GRID SERVICES AND THE ARBITRAGE PIECE THAT Y'ALL WILL SAVE THROUGH, UM, YOU KNOW, THOSE REDUCTIONS OR IS THAT MORE OF LIKE A INCENTIVE TO, YOU KNOW, LIKE PUSH THIS INTO THE MARKET OR BOTH OR THAT TBD THAT'S OUR PAYMENT TO USE AND HAVE ACCESS TO THE PART OF THE BATTERY THAT WE HAVE AND SO WE CONTROL AND SO THOSE, THOSE, THOSE OPPORTUNITIES EARNED BENEFITS THROUGH THE ARBITRAGE AND FOUR C FOUR CP SLASH 12 CP REDUCTION AS WELL AS ERCOT, UH, ARE, ARE, WILL BE OFFSETS TO THAT. 
          OKAY. 
          AND UM, I GUESS LIKE WOULD THIS BE, LIKE THESE BATTERIES BE USED, LIKE THIS IS DISPATCHABLE ENERGY, RIGHT, THAT YOU GUYS CAN USE FOR PEAK LOAD REDUCTION? RIGHT. 
          SO AT A COST OF A MILLION DOLLARS PER MEGAWATT HOUR, I'M NOT SURE, SORRY, NOT MEGAWATT HOUR, MEGAWATT OF CAPACITY. 
          I'M NOT SURE IF FOLLY THERE. 
          UM, SO IT'S, YOU KNOW, ESSENTIALLY $4 MILLION A YEAR OVER 10 YEARS THAT'S GONNA TOP OUT AT 40 MEGAWATTS. 
          SO IT'S ABOUT A MILLION DOLLARS PER MEGAWATT. 
          IS THAT LIKE AN ACCURATE WAY OF THINKING ABOUT IT? UH, THAT'S ONE WAY TO DO IT. 
          UH, AT THE END OF THE DAY, WE HAVE THE USE OF THESE BATTERIES FOR 10 YEARS AND SO AT, AT A RATE OF $4 MILLION A YEAR AND HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO EARN REVENUE THROUGH, AGAIN, ARBITRAGE, UH, IT'S NOT REVENUE, BUT A, IT'S A, IT'S AN OFFSET, A COST REDUCTION ON AGAINST THE FOUR CP, WHICH, AND OR WILL BE 12 CP UH, SOON, UH, WHICH IS CONSIDERABLE AND ALSO ERCOT REVENUES. 
          SO IT'S A, OKAY, SO LIKE AFTER 10 YEARS YOUR CONTRACT WITH BASE ENDS WITH THE CUSTOMERS RETAIN THE BATTERY AND BASE RETAINS THEIR RELATIONSHIP WITH THE CUSTOMERS OR THAT, THAT REMAINS TO BE SEEN. 
          I I CAN'T GIVE YOU A COMPLETE RUNDOWN OF THE BASE AGREEMENT WITH THE CUSTOMERS, BUT I DO KNOW THAT THAT THAT PART OF THEIR AGREEMENT WITH AN INDIVIDUAL CUSTOMERS THAT THE, THE, THE CUSTOMER, UH, THAT THEY CAN HAVE THE BATTERY REMOVED AT THAT POINT IF THEY WISH, UH, AT THE END OF THE DAY THOUGH, THAT, THAT THAT ENDPOINT, IF, IF IT'S NOT RENEWED, OUR USAGE OF THAT STOPS AND ALSO THEY HAVE TO, UH, THEY HAVE TO STOP USING IT AS WELL UNLESS WE AGREE OTHERWISE BECAUSE OF THE SETUP THAT WE HAVE. 
          OKAY. 
          SO THERE'S A INCENTIVE TO GET THIS UP AND RUNNING QUICK, RIGHT? 'CAUSE YOU'RE PAYING THE SAME AMOUNT NOW AS YOU'RE IN 10 YEARS WHEN IT IS FULLY FLUSHED OUT. 
          I'M SORRY, YOU'RE PAYING A MILLION, 4 MILLION A YEAR NOW AS IT'S RAMPING UP AND THEN 4 MILLION IN EIGHT YEARS 
          [00:20:01]
WHEN ALL HAVE BEEN INSTALLED? 4 MILLION IS BASED ON THE FULL 40 MEGAWATTS BEING ACHIEVED. 
          OKAY. 
          SO AS IT SCALES UP, WE'RE NOT PAYING THAT FULL RATE UNTIL IT HITS THAT. 
          OKAY. 
          COOL. 
          THANK YOU. 
          BET. 
          ARE, ARE THERE ANY QUESTIONS FROM THOSE, UH, ON ONLINE? 'CAUSE I CAN'T SEE YOU, SO IF YOU HAVE ANY COMMISSIONER GLASER OR KENARD. 
          OKAY. 
          ANY, ALL, ALL GOOD FOR ME? THANKS. 
          OH, GO AHEAD COMMISSIONER KENNER. 
          SORRY, THAT WAS ME SAYING I DIDN'T HAVE ANY QUESTIONS. 
          UH, OKAY. 
          THANK YOU. 
          UM, I JUST DIDN'T WANNA, I WANNA MAKE SURE WE WEREN'T OVERLOOKING YOU. 
          SO, UH, COMMISSIONER SCHWARTZ? YES, GO AHEAD PLEASE. 
          OH, OKAY. 
          . 
          OKAY. 
          YEAH. 
          THANK YOU FOR THE PRESENTATION. 
          SURE. 
          SO I HAD TWO QUESTIONS. 
          ONE, I THINK WAS ON THE 40, LIKE THE, THE, HOW THE UTILITY CAME TO 40 MEGAWATTS AND THE, AND THE SIZE AND HOW THE, YOU KNOW, THE, THE UTILITY THINKS ABOUT THE INCOME AND WHETHER ANY OF THAT INFORMATION COULD BE LIKE SH SHARED MORE TRANSPARENTLY IN THE FUTURE. 
          IS, IS THERE ANY PROCESS FOR THAT GOING FORWARD? I GUESS WHILE THIS WAS ALL GOING ON, YOU KNOW, WE DIDN'T GET A PRESENTATION ON THIS, I DON'T THINK, BEFORE IT WAS ANNOUNCED OR BEFORE IT WAS TAKEN TO COUNCIL. 
          IS THERE ANY OPPORTUNITY GOING FORWARD FOR SHARING SOME OF THAT, THOSE NUMBERS, LIKE THE ARBITRAGE NUMBERS OR THE FOUR CP NUMBERS OR THE DISTRIBUTION GRID ANALYSIS AND HOW ANY OF THAT'S BEING LOOKED AT? SO GENERALLY, SO THIS IS A WHOLESALE POWER AGREEMENT AND GENERALLY THAT LEVEL OF DETAIL IS GONNA BE TREATED CONFIDENTIALLY. 
          UH, SO THAT'S GOING BACKWARDS ON YOUR QUESTION. 
          THAT WAS YOUR LAST QUESTION. 
          YOUR, ON YOUR FIRST QUESTION. 
          I THINK IF UNDERSTOOD YOU, HOW DO WE ARRIVE AT 40 MEGAWATTS? UM, YEAH, IT'S KINDA THE SAME QUESTION. 
          I ACTUALLY DON'T, I DON'T HAVE A GREAT ANSWER FOR THAT PER SE. 
          I, I, IT, THIS IS WHAT WE GOT FROM THE RFP THAT CAME IN. 
          UM, I DON'T KNOW THAT WE HAD ANY PARTICULAR EXPECTATION ABOUT SCALE AT THAT STAGE. 
          AND SO I THINK THIS, FROM THE TEAM STANDPOINT, THIS WAS A REASONABLY SMALL BUT NOT SO SMALL. 
          IT DOESN'T MATTER TYPE SCALE. 
          UH, AND I ALSO THINK IF I'M BASED THAT THEY ALSO NEED A CERTAIN SCALE TO MAKE THINGS WORK. 
          AND IT SEEMS LIKE IT'S A HAPPY MEDIUM AT THE MOMENT, RIGHT? MM-HMM . 
          OKAY. 
          THANK YOU. 
          AND THEN THE SECOND ONE WAS, UM, I HAPPENED TO LIVE IN A, A DUPLEX HOUSE. 
          UM, AND WE, I CONTACTED THEM TO SEE WHAT WAS GOING ON WITH THIS AND BASICALLY WAS TOLD WHILE IT'S ONLY FOR SINGLE FAMILY HOME. 
          AND ALSO I WAS TOLD BY THE REP THAT THERE IS, THIS ISN'T USUALLY TRUE FOR BASE, BUT AUSTIN ENERGY HAD PUT LIKE A 200 AMP, THE SERVICE HAS TO BE 200 AMP TO QUALIFY FOR THE PROGRAM. 
          I DIDN'T VERIFY THAT'S TRUE, BUT THAT'S WHAT I WAS TOLD. 
          SO, YOU KNOW, IT'S, UH, MULTI-FAMILY HOMES, NEVER 200 AMPS. 
          SO, AND I THINK THEY ALSO TOLD ME LIKE, I GUESS THE MAJORITY, VAST MAJORITY OF SINGLE FAMILY HOMES 50 1950S, SIXTIES, SEVENTIES, EIGHTIES WEREN'T 200 AMP. 
          I DON'T KNOW WHEN IT SWITCHED OVER TO 200, BUT IT WOULD TYPICALLY BE NEWER AND LARGER HOMES. 
          IS THE UTILITY, DID THE UTILITY VALUE THE RESILIENCY TO THE, THE INDIVIDUAL? 'CAUSE OBVIOUSLY THE, THE BOTTOM 30% OF THE BATTERY IS SUPPOSED TO ACT AS RESILIENCY FOR THE INDIVIDUAL. 
          DID THE UTILITY VALUE THAT AND IS YEAH, NO, UH, THE UTILITY JUST LOOKED AT THE PIECE THAT WE'RE GETTING AND SO, UH, IT'S REALLY UP TO THE INDIVIDUAL CUSTOMER HOMEOWNER TO DECIDE WHAT IT'S WORTH TO THEM. 
          UH, THE, SOME OF THE THINGS I CAN'T, I'M NOT THE EXPERT ON ALL THE, THE DETAILS OF A BASE, UH, SYSTEM, BUT I DO BELIEVE WHAT YOU ARTICULATED THERE IS CORRECT, THERE ARE LIMITATIONS AS TO WHERE THEY WILL CURRENTLY GO WITH THE, THE PANEL SIZE. 
          THE, THERE HAS TO BE A SPACE AVAILABLE, WHICH GENERALLY FITS IN THE SINGLE FAMILY CATEGORY, BUT NOT ALWAYS. 
          AND THINGS MIGHT CHANGE OVER TIME. 
          SO, UH, THERE, THERE ARE THOSE LIMITATIONS THOUGH, CURRENTLY. 
          OKAY. 
          AND IN THEIR APPROACH, AND I GUESS THIS YOU, YOU'RE PROBABLY NOT GONNA BE ABLE TO ANSWER THIS, BUT IN THE FUTURE WOULD IS THE UTIL YOU SAID, I THINK EARLIER THE UTILITIES ARE LOOKING TO CONSIDER OTHER OPTIONS FROM MULTIFAMILY IN THE FUTURE. 
          IS THAT SOMETHING THAT WOULD, YOU KNOW, WOULD COME UP WHETHER THIS IS BEING RESTRICTED TO LARGER HOMES AND NEWER HOMES IN SINGLE FAMILY HOMES, IS THAT SOMETHING THAT, THAT WOULD BE CONSIDERED IN THE FUTURE, DOING THIS IN MORE EQUITABLE WAY, OR IS THIS NOT SOMETHING THAT I THINK, I THINK THAT'S AMONG THE THINGS THAT WE'LL HAVE TO CONSIDER GOING FORWARD. 
          IF WE CAN EXPRESS AN INTEREST IN THAT. 
          I THINK THAT FOR THE MOMENT, THE, THEIR BASIS APPROACH IS CONSISTENT WITH THEIR OVERALL BUSINESS MODEL. 
          YEAH. 
          UH, NOT JUST HERE, BUT EVERYWHERE. 
          THAT DOESN'T MEAN THOUGH THAT I THINK THEY RECOGNIZE THAT THERE'S A MARKET THAT'S BIGGER THAN JUST SINGLE FAMILY HOMES. 
          UH, BUT THEN THEY HAVE TO HAVE THEIR SYSTEMS BE COMPATIBLE WITH THOSE TYPES OF ARRANGEMENTS. 
          AND I, I CAN'T SPEAK TO THE FUTURE ON THAT FRONT, BUT MAYBE IT'S SOMEBODY ELSE. 
          MAYBE IT'S THEM, BUT OBVIOUSLY IF THERE'S AN OPPORTUNITY FOR THAT, I THINK THAT WE'D LIKE TO ENCOURAGE THAT AT SOME POINT IN THE FUTURE. 
          OKAY. 
          THANK YOU. 
          YEAH. 
          ANY OTHER 
          [00:25:02]
QUESTIONS? OKAY, WE'LL GO TO COMMISSIONER FARMER. 
          UM, I THINK WE'RE ALL PRETTY INTERESTED, EXCITED ABOUT THIS PROGRAM. 
          UM, I KNOW YOU GUYS ARE STILL VERY MUCH RAMPING UP. 
          WHEN WOULD BE A GOOD POINT DO YOU THINK FOR US TO GET LIKE AN UPDATE ON SORT OF THE SUCCESS METRICS? YOU KNOW, LIKE IF YOU COME BACK IN SIX MONTHS, IT MIGHT STILL BE RAMPING UP SO IT MIGHT NOT BE VALUABLE OR LIKE WHAT CADENCE AND HOW SOON DO YOU THINK WE SHOULD BE ASKING FOR AN UPDATE? I, I, I DON'T HAVE A GOOD ANSWER OTHER THAN TO SAY THAT, UH, THE RAMP UP PERIOD THAT WE HAVE IN THE AGREEMENT IS UP TO EIGHT. 
          IT'S TAKES, THEY HAVE UP TO 18 MONTHS TO HIT THE FULL 40 MEGAWATTS. 
          SO, UM, I THINK AT LEAST 12 MONTHS, UH, PROBABLY TO GET THERE AND SOMEWHERE IN THAT 12 TO 18 MONTH TIME RANGE IS PROBABLY WHERE THINGS BECOME INTERESTING IN TERMS OF GETTING CLOSE TO THE FINISH LINE. 
          COOL. 
          AND I THINK THE OTHER PIECE OF THAT WOULD JUST BE CLARITY MAYBE, AND THAT WOULD BE AT THAT PRESENTATION ABOUT LIKE WHAT THE, LIKE WHAT Y'ALL CONSIDER A SUCCESS TO BE. 
          LIKE WHAT ARE THE METRICS THAT YOU GUYS ARE LOOKING AT IN THIS THAT WOULD, UM, MAYBE LIKE LEAD TO ADDITIONAL CAPACITY RFP OR, OR YOU GUYS JUST SEEING IT AS A SUCCESSFUL PROGRAM THAT YOU'D WANT TO CONTINUE AND EXPAND. 
          OKAY. 
          THANKS COMMISSIONER SILVERSTEIN. 
          THANK YOU. 
          SO, UM, BASIS IS THIS BASIS INITIAL PROGRAM IN THE COMPETITIVE PARTS OF TEXAS WAS TO PUT THIS IN BEF INTO THE PUC ERCOT AGGREGATED DISTRIBUTED ENERGY RESOURCE PROGRAM, WHICH HAS A TOTAL ERCOT IS IS STRICTLY LIMITING THE NUMBER OF A DER MEGAWATTS THAT CAN PARTICIPATE. 
          IS THIS IN ITS AUSTIN DEPLOYMENT CONSIDERED ALSO PART OF THE A DER PROGRAM? IT, IT CAN BE. 
          WE, WE HAVE TO DO THAT. 
          WE HAVE TO, WE WOULD HAVE TO DO THAT AGGREGATION AND DESIGNATE IT AND THEN PROVIDE IT TO ERCOT THROUGH THE MECHANISMS THAT ERCOT HAS TO DO THAT BECAUSE ERCOT HAS PLACED, IF I RECALL, VERY STRICT LIMITS ON ESSENTIALLY PROHIBITING MOST OF THE A DER RESOURCES FROM ACTUALLY PROVIDING A VARIETY OF ANCILLARY SERVICES, WHICH MEANS A POTENTIAL SOURCE OF INCOME FOR YOU ALL IS, IS OUT OF THE QUESTION. 
          AND THEREFORE THE MAIN VALUE THAT YOU RECEIVE FROM THIS IS OFFSETTING IN TERMS OF LESS PEAK, BETTER FREQUENCY MANAGEMENT, A BUNCH OF STUFF THAT'S ESSENTIALLY BEHIND THE AUSTIN METER, INSIDE THE AUSTIN QUEASY AND INSIDE YOUR OPERATIONS RATHER THAN GETTING ANY REVENUES OUT OF THE ERCOT MARKET ITSELF. 
          IS THAT CORRECT? WELL, THERE, THERE ARE OPPORTUNITIES TO PUT IT INTO ERCOT. 
          THEY HAVE LIMITATIONS, THEY HAVE TO QUALIFY FOR IT. 
          THERE HAS TO BE A, THEY HAVE TO HAVE THE, THE SIZE HAS TO BE AVAILABLE TO GO FOR IT OR GO TO IT. 
          AND I'M PRETTY SURE ERCOT IS, IS CONSTANTLY CONSIDERING HOW TO CHANGE OR UPDATE OR EXPAND THAT PROGRAM. 
          NOT FAST ENOUGH THOUGH. 
          UM, BUT JUST TO VERIFY, BECAUSE THIS IS IN THE NATURE OF THIS CONTRACT, BECAUSE YOU ARE A MUNICIPAL UTILITY, VERTICALLY INTEGRATED AND NOT COMPETITIVE IS AUSTIN GETS ALL THE REVENUES TO THE DEGREE THAT ANYTHING GOES INSIDE THE ERCOT MARKET. 
          AS FOR ANYTHING. 
          CORRECT. 
          YOU GET THE CASH NOT BASED. 
          THAT'S RIGHT. 
          WHEREAS THEIR MODEL IN THE REST OF THE ERCOT COMPETITIVE MARKET IS THEY GET THE CASH FROM ALL OF US. 
          RIGHT. 
          THANK YOU SO MUCH. 
          YOU BET. 
          VERY HELPFUL. 
          VICE CHAIR ROBBINS, HOPEFULLY THIS WILL BE A QUICK POINT. 
          UH, A FEW, A COUPLE MINUTES AGO, A FEW MINUTES AGO YOU SAID THAT THIS IS A WHOLESALE CONTRACT AND THE TERMS ARE LARGELY, UM, SECRET FOR THAT REASON. 
          UM, OUR RESOLUTION, UH, THAT WE ARE ON, THAT WE PASSED IN JULY WAS FOR REPORTING WHAT HAS ALREADY OCCURRED, NOT IN REAL TIME, BUT YOU KNOW, HALF A YEAR OR A YEAR PRIOR. 
          SO I DON'T BELIEVE, UM, OUR REQUEST FOR TRANSPARENCY IS COMPROMISING, UH, THE WHOLESALE MARKET. 
          THANK YOU. 
          THANK YOU VICE CHAIR. 
          ALRIGHT, ARE THERE ANY OTHER QUESTIONS OR COMMENTS, UH, ON THIS TOPIC? HEARING NONE, UM, THANK YOU MR. SWEENEY FOR COMING TONIGHT. 
          VERY INFORMATIVE. 
          APPRECIATE IT. 
          YOU BET. 
          HAVE A GOOD EVENING. 
          ALRIGHT, UH, SO WE SHALL MOVE 
          [3. Staff briefing on the Overview of The Heat Pump Program by Hammad Chaudhry, Director, Energy Efficiency Services, Austin Energy.]
ON TO OUR NEXT STAFF BRIEFING IS ON, UH, OVERVIEW AND, UH, THE HEAT PUMP 
          [00:30:01]
PROGRAM BY HAMAD CHARI. 
          GOOD EVENING EVERYONE. 
          HAMAD SHADI, DIRECTOR OF ENERGY EFFICIENCY HERE AT AUSTIN ENERGY. 
          AND AGAIN, GOOD EVENING. 
          UH, CHAIR DAVIS, VICE CHAIR ROBBINS, AND REST OF THE RMC COMMITTEE. 
          SO TODAY I WILL BE GIVING A BRIEFING ON OUR ENERGY EFFICIENCY PROGRAMS DIRECTED AT, UM, HIGH EFFICIENCY AIR CONDITIONERS AND HEAT PUMPS. 
          WANNA DISCUSS HOW DO WE OFFER THESE PROGRAMS AND THEIR SUCCESSES IN DIFFERENT MARKETS. 
          BUT BEFORE I GET INTO IT, NEXT SLIDE PLEASE. 
          I WANTED TO, UH, POINT THE ROOM IN A DIRECTION THAT WE HAVE BEEN RUNNING THESE PROGRAMS OR SIMILAR PROGRAMS FOR DECADES. 
          AND AS OF TODAY, WHERE I STAND TODAY, WE HAVE, UH, GAINED SIGNIFICANT AMOUNT OF DEMAND SAVINGS WHILE RUNNING THESE PROGRAMS FOR, FOR DECADES NOW. 
          UM, THERE HAVE BEEN PERSISTENT BARRIERS TO THE PARTICIPATION IN HEAT PUMPS AND AIR CONDITIONERS, AND THERE ARE SOME NEW BARRIERS THAT ARE COMING IN. 
          DESPITE THAT WE ARE RUNNING THESE PROGRAMS AND WE CONTINUE TO USE THESE PROGRAMS TO MEET OUR OBLIGATIONS AND RESOURCE GENERATION PLAN. 
          UM, YEP. 
          SO NEXT SLIDE PLEASE. 
          SO BEFORE I GO FURTHER IN DETAIL, I WANTED TO HAVE A QUICK DISCUSSION ON WHAT EXACTLY HEAT PUMP IS OR WHAT EXACTLY IS HIGHER HIGH EFFICIENCY AIR CONDITION IS. 
          THESE WORDS KIND OF GET OR INTERCHANGE AND IT'S IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER THOSE BECAUSE AN IMPORTANT ASPECT OF HEAT PUMP AIR CONDITIONERS IS HEATING OR WITHIN THE CONTEXT OF HEAT PUMP, WE NEED TO DISCUSS THE MATTER OF HEATING, WHICH IS ESSENTIALLY, UH, WHERE HEAT PUMPS DIFFER. 
          SO WHAT HEAT PUMP IS, HEAT PUMP IS A TECHNOLOGY IS BASICALLY A THERMODYNAMIC CYCLE, WHICH MOVES THE HEAT USING A REFRIGERANT VERSUS CREATING A HEAT, UH, HEAT PUMPS WITHIN THE SUMMERTIME. 
          UH, WITHIN THE SUMMER THEY MOVE THE HEAT OR FROM INSIDE TO OUTSIDE CREATING COOLING. 
          AND IN WINTER THEY DO THE OPPOSITE. 
          HIGH EFFICIENCY AIR CONDITIONERS, SEER SEASONAL ENERGY EFFICIENCY RATIO OF 14 AND ABOVE ARE ALSO HEAT PUMPS. 
          IN THE SUMMER, THEY DO THE SAME THING. 
          UH, WHERE HEAT PUMP DIFFERS IS THAT IN THE, IN THE WINTER THEY CAN HEAT, WHEREAS HIGHER EV HIGHER EFFICIENCY AIR CONDITIONERS REQUIRE A DIFFERENT SOURCE OF HEATING. 
          IN MANY CASES IT'S A GAS FURNACE. 
          IN OTHER CASES IT CAN BE ELECTRIC RESISTANCE HEATING, OR IN MY CASE IT'S A WOOD BURNING FIREPLACE, ONE OF THOSE. 
          UH, SO, SO THAT'S, THAT'S HOW YOU KNOW SYSTEMS WORK. 
          UH, NEXT, UH, NEXT SLIDE PLEASE. 
          SO WHEN IT COMES TO AIR CONDITIONING AND HEAT PUMPS IN THE RESIDENTIAL SPACE, I WANTED TO POINT THAT, UH, OUT NOT ONLY THAT WE ARE OFFERING THESE PROGRAMS, BUT SINCE 1989, AUSTIN AUSTIN CODE PROHIBIT OR LIMIT THE INSTALLATION OF ELECTRIC RESISTANCE HEATING IN THE NEW CONSTRUCTION. 
          ELECTRIC RESISTANCE HEATING IS ONE OF THE MOST, UH, ENERGY INTENSIVE FORM OF HEATING, WHICH I UNDERSTAND IS THE PRIMARY FOCUS FOR THE CHANGE. 
          UH, UH, FOR FOR MANY PEOPLE. 
          UH, WE HAVE BEEN, AS I SAID, YOU KNOW, WE HAVE BEEN OFFERING THESE PROGRAMS SINCE 1980S. 
          UH, OUR CURRENT REBATES FOR SINGLE FAMILY HOMES IS RANGES ANYWHERE FROM $600 UP TO $1,600, DEPENDING UPON HOW DO YOU GET THE REBATE, WHETHER IT'S A APPLYING SUFFICIENCY PROGRAM, A STANDALONE REBATE, OR VIA OUR HOME ENERGY SAVINGS OR WEB PROGRAM. 
          UH, JUST TO PUT THE NUMBERS IN SOME, SOME, UH, THE, THE SUCCESS IN PERSPECTIVE, IN LAST 10 YEARS, WE HAVE DONE ABOUT 27,500 SUCH REBATES OR ANOTHER WAY TO SAY THAT ALMOST 27,500 HOMEOWNERS OR RESIDENTS GOT ADVANTAGE OF OUR REBATES, UH, MOVING TO HIGH EFFICIENCY AIR CONDITIONING OR HEAT PUMPS GENERATING ALMOST 22.5 MEGAWATTS OF DEMAND SAVINGS. 
          NOW, THIS IS HOW THE PROGRAM IS OPERATING. 
          I BELIEVE IT'S A VERY SUCCESSFUL PROGRAM, BUT LET'S JUST TALK ABOUT SOME OF THE INHERENT LIMITATIONS OR CHALLENGES. 
          UH, SO HEAT FOR, FOR BOTH HEAT PUMP AND AIR CONDITIONERS, WE WANT TO UNDERSTAND WHAT OUR MARKET LOOKS LIKE. 
          WE HAVE CONSIDERABLE AMOUNT OF DATA AVAILABLE TO US VIA OUR ENERGY DISCLOSURE ACT, ENERGY CONSERVATION DISCLOSURE ACT, ECAD ON SINGLE FAMILY HOMES. 
          OUR DATA SHOWS US THAT ALMOST 73% OF HOMES, SINGLE FAMILY HOMES IN ENERGY SERVICE TERRITORY ARE GAS HEATED. 
          SO THESE ARE THE HOMES WHERE PEOPLE ARE HEATING THEIR HOMES VIA GAS FURNACE. 
          13% OF HOMES HAVE ELECTRIC RESISTANCE HEATING, WHEREAS ABOUT 13% OF HOMES ARE ALREADY INSTALLED WITH HEAT PUMP WITH 1%, UH, DIFFERENT KIND OF HEATINGS. 
          SO THAT'S JUST AN IMPORTANT ASPECT HERE TO REMEMBER WHAT KIND OF MARKET WE ARE IN A LARGELY, LARGELY GAS HEATED MARKET. 
          THERE'S ANOTHER ASPECT I WANT TO DISCUSS HERE, IT'S NOT ON THE SLIDE. 
          UM, SO I HAVE SOME NUMBERS. 
          HEATING DEGREE DAYS AND COOLING 
          [00:35:01]
DEGREE DAYS. 
          THESE ARE TWO MEASURES THAT HVAC PRACTITIONERS OR H OR OR HVAC ENGINEERS USE TO MEASURE THE NEED OF COOLING SIZE OR COOLING SYSTEM OR HEATING SYSTEM. 
          CENTRAL TEXAS AND AUSTIN OR AUSTIN HAS ABOUT 3,200 COOLING DEGREE DAYS ON AVERAGE IN A YEAR COMPARED THAT TO SAY DALLAS, WHICH IS ABOUT 2,800. 
          SO IN PLAIN WORDS, MEANING THERE IS MORE COOLING NEED IN AUSTIN VERSUS DALLAS TALKING ABOUT HEATING HEATING, UH, AUSTIN HAS ABOUT 1600, 1600 HEATING DEGREE DAYS, WHEREAS DALLAS HAS ABOUT 2300, 2300 HEATING DEGREES DAYS. 
          IN SIMPLE WORDS, IN AUSTIN, THERE IS LESS NEED FOR HEATING COMPARED TO SAY, DALLAS OR OTHER PARTS OF THE STATE. 
          THESE ARE IMPORTANT METRICS FOR US TO REMEMBER BECAUSE LATER WHEN I WILL GET INTO COST, COST OF THESE TECHNOLOGIES, IT'LL BE IMPORTANT THAT YOU KNOW, HOW PEOPLE OR RESIDENT END USERS ARE LOOKING AT, AT, AT ASSESSING THE TECHNOLOGIES. 
          HOW DO WE ASSESS TECHNOLOGIES IN THIS, IN ESTABLISHING A REBATE AND WHATNOT. 
          SO THAT'S THE RESIDENTIAL MARKET, SINGLE FAMILY MARKET. 
          HAVING SAID THAT, WE HAVE BEEN VERY SUCCESSFUL IN THIS MARKET. 
          UM, NEXT SLIDE PLEASE. 
          IN GRANT YEAR, IN FISCAL YEAR 2026, WE ARE STILL FINALIZING THE DATA, BUT WE DID ALMOST 2100 REBATES, ABOUT 1500 OR SO IN HIGH EFFICIENCY AIR CONDITIONERS, AND ABOUT 500 OR SO, OR 460, UH, UH, HEAT PUMPS. 
          BUT IF YOU LOOK AT THE HISTORY 2021, WE HAVE HAD ABOUT, UM, UH, IN 2021 AND 22, WE HAD LARGE NUMBER OF REBATES OVER 3000, 3,400. 
          UH, WE HAD A DIP IN 23 AND 24. 
          STILL, WE DID CONSIDERABLE NUMBER OF, UH, UH, HOMES FOR AIR CONDITIONING OR THESE FARMS, 2,600 TO 2000, 2004. 
          UH, IN 2020 25, UH, THERE WAS A DIP FROM 2223, BUT THAT WAS LARGELY BECAUSE OF, UH, THE MINIMUM BASELINES WERE INCREASED BY THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT. 
          ONCE THE FEDERAL BASELINE GOES UP, IT BECAME C 14, THEN A LOT OF THE HIGH EFFICIENCY CONDITIONS AT THAT TIME BECOME INELIGIBLE FOR OUR REBATES. 
          WE ALWAYS WANT TO BE HIGHER THAN THE BASELINE. 
          THEN IN 2024, YOU CAN SEE THERE WAS A DIP 2324, THAT'S WHEN EPA BANNED IF, UH,  R FOUR. 
          SORRY TO INTERRUPT, I DON'T WANNA INTERRUPT. 
          I JUST WANNA MAKE SURE THAT THE FOLKS ONLINE CAN HEAR BECAUSE YOU'RE KIND OF FAR FROM THE MICROPHONE. 
          OH, OKAY. 
          MY, MY APOLOGIES. 
          SO, IF, UH, SOMEONE MISSED SOMETHING, I'M JUST GIVING A LITTLE HISTORICAL AS ASPECT OF OUR PARTICIPATION INTO THIS PROGRAM, THERE IS A CONSIDERABLE DIP, NOT CONSIDERABLE, BUT THERE IS A DIP FROM 2022 TO 23 AND FROM 23 TO 24, WHICH ARE LARGELY DRIVEN BY FEDERALIST STANDARDS CHANGE OR EPS BAN OF A CERTAIN REFRIGERANT, DEEMING QUITE A BIT OF MARKET, UH, MODELS IN THE MARKET INELIGIBLE FOR OUR REBATES. 
          UH, YEP, NEXT SLIDE PLEASE. 
          SO NOW MOVING INTO MULTI-FAMILY MARKET. 
          SO WE HAVE PRETTY LARGE MULTI-FAMILY MARKET IN AUSTIN, AND THE CHALLENGES IN MULTIFAMILY MARKETS ARE A LITTLE DIFFERENT. 
          BUT BEFORE, UH, AGAIN, I GO INTO THE DETAILS, UH, SIMILAR TO OUR SINGLE FAMILY ENERGY CODE THAT IS APPLICABLE TO THE SINGLE FAMILY HOMES, ANY MULTI-FAMILY BUILDING, WHICH IS FOUR UNITS OR LESS, THE SAME CODE APPLIES ESSENTIALLY NO, IN THE NEW CONSTRUCTION. 
          WE LIMIT, UH, THE CODE LIMITS, UH, INSTALLATION OF ELECTRIC RESISTANCE HEATING. 
          WHEREAS IN THE LARGER BUILDINGS, IF THEY, IF THE LARGEST BUILDINGS HAVE TO BE CERTIFIED GREEN THROUGH GREEN BUILDING PROGRAM, THEY MUST INSTALL, UH, HEAT PUMPS. 
          SO ESSENTIALLY, YOU KNOW, THROUGH THE POLICY FROM THE CORE STANDPOINT, WE ARE, WE ARE, UM, UH, IN INCENTIVIZING PEOPLE TO INSTALL, INSTALL HEAT PUMPS. 
          UH, SINCE IN THE LAST 10 YEARS, WE HAVE WEATHERIZED OR WE HAVE UPGRADED ENERGY EFFICIENCY WISE, ALMOST 71,000 UNITS IN OCEAN ENERGY SERVICE TERRITORY, RESULTING IN 32.8 MEGAWATTS OF ENERGY SAVINGS. 
          NOW, WHEN I TALK ABOUT MULTI-FAMILY PROGRAM, OUR MULTI-FAMILY PROGRAM HAS TWO VARIANTS, MULTI-FAMILY, LET'S CALL IT MARKET RATE AND MULTI-FAMILY INCOME QUALIFIED. 
          BOTH OF THESE PROGRAMS TARGET OR THEIR AIM IS TO MAKE THE END UNIT THE DWELLING, THE UNITS WITHIN THE BUILDINGS EFFICIENT FOR OUR RESIDENTS, BETTER COMFORT, BETTER EFFICIENCY. 
          AND THESE PROGRAMS ARE ALWAYS LOOKING INTO PRIMARY TUNING UP HVAC AND WHERE THE TUNEUP IS NOT POSSIBLE, OR THE SYSTEM IS VERY OLD, WE RECOMMEND PROPERTY OWNER TO WORK WITH US AND GO INSTALL HIGH EFFICIENCY AIR CONDITIONS OR IDLY HEAT PUMP. 
          HOWEVER, THERE ARE SEVERAL CHALLENGES THERE. 
          NOW, AGAIN, USING THE ECA DATA ON THE MULTIFAMILY BUILDINGS IN E IN OUR ECA DATA, WE DON'T EXACTLY HAVE THE HEATING TYPE AVAILABLE, BUT WE KNOW THAT ALMOST 83% OF OUR, OUR MULTIFAMILY UNITS ARE FULLY ELECTRIC AND 17% BUILD UNITS HAVE GAS, SOME SORT OF, YOU KNOW, DIFFERENT KIND OF HEATING, GAS, GAS HEATING. 
          SO WHAT DOES IT MEAN? UH, NEXT SLIDE PLEASE. 
          SO JUST TO REITERATE, OUR SUCCESS IN THIS PROGRAM, IF YOU SEE, YOU KNOW, SINCE 
          [00:40:01]
2021, WE HAVE DONE, WE HAVE WEATHERIZED OR WE HAVE TOUCHED, UH, AT LEAST 7,800 HOMES IN 2021 WITH THE, UH, WITH THE, WITH, UH, A, A SPIKE OF 11, 11,000 UNITS IN 2024 AND WHATNOT. 
          SO IDEA ABOUT THIS SLIDE IS TO SHOW YOU THAT EVERY YEAR WE ARE ADDRESSING ENERGY EFFICIENCY NEEDS AT CONSIDERABLE NUMBER OF MULTIFAMILY PROPERTIES, INCLUDING THE HVAC NEEDS EITHER TUNE UP OF THE AIR, AIR CONDITIONERS, UH, UH, UH, RECOMMENDATIONS AND REBATES TO INSTALL NEW AIR CONDITIONERS OR HEAT PUMPS. 
          UH, OKAY, SO, UH, NEXT SLIDE PLEASE. 
          NOW, IN MULTI-FAMILY PROPERTIES, OUR CHALLENGES ARE A LITTLE BIT FURTHER. 
          UH, OKAY. 
          OKAY. 
          SO THERE ARE DIFFERENT CHALLENGES IN MULTIFAMILY BARRIERS TO ESSENTIALLY TO HEAT PUMPS. 
          THIS IS WHERE I THINK, YOU KNOW, A LOT OF INTEREST IS FROM, FROM FROM THE COMMISSION, I BELIEVE, FOR US TO INVEST IN OR IMPROVE OUR HEAT PUMP PARTICIPATION, UH, IN MULTIFAMILY BUILDING. 
          SO I THOUGHT I SHOULD ADDRESS OR WE SHOULD ADDRESS SOME OF THE INHERENT CHALLENGES. 
          AND THEN I ALSO HAVE SOME GOOD NEWS, NOT ALL BAD NEWS, GOOD NEWS IN TERMS OF HOW WE ARE TRYING TO ADDRESS THESE BARRIERS. 
          SO SOME, SOME BARRIERS. 
          ONE BARRIER, WHICH HAS ALWAYS BEEN THERE IN MULTI-FAMILY, UH, SPACE, IS SPLIT INCENTIVE. 
          PEOPLE WHO LIVE IN THE, UH, PROPERTY AND, AND GET BENEFIT FROM ENERGY EFFICIENCY UPGRADES ARE THE RESIDENTS. 
          THEY GENERALLY PAY THE BILL, BUT THEY'RE GENERALLY NOT THE OWNERS WHERE THE PROPERTY MANAGEMENT OR PROPERTY OWNERS ARE THE PROPERTY OWNERS WHO ESSENTIALLY IN MANY CASES GET THE INCENTIVE FOR US. 
          SO INHERENTLY THEY DON'T HAVE THAT MUCH OF REASON TO GO AHEAD AND MAKE LARGE, VERY LARGE CAPITAL INTENSIVE INVESTMENTS AND CHANGE HUNDREDS OF, UH, HVAC UNITS AT THE SAME TIME. 
          THIS IS, THIS IS A CHALLENGE WHICH EXISTS IN EVERY STATE. 
          I HAVE WORKED IN EVERYWHERE, AND WE ARE TRYING TO ADDRESS IT. 
          ELECTRIC RESISTANCE HEATING IS GENERALLY CONSIDERED A LOW UPFRONT COST INVESTMENT FOR PROPERTY OWNERS. 
          IT'S MUCH CHEAPER TO, FOR THEM TO INSTALL OR REPLACE. 
          SIMILARLY, THE MAINTENANCE OF, UH, OF, OF ELECTRIC RESISTANCE HEATING IS CONSIDERABLY EASY. 
          UH, INSTALLATION IS EASY, WHEREAS HEAT PUMPS, ESPECIALLY NEW HEAT PUMPS, THEY REQUIRE CERTAIN INFRASTRUCTURE UPGRADES, FOR EXAMPLE, IN THERE ARE IN, IF YOU ARE CONVERTING FROM ELECTRIC RESISTANCE TO HEAT PUMP, MOST LIKELY WE NEED TO INSTALL AN INSIDE BREAKER AND OUTSIDE BREAKER. 
          IN MANY CASES, WE HAVE TO INSTALL AUXILIARY HEAT, WHICH REQUIRES ANOTHER KIND OF BREAKER. 
          OLDER MULTIFAMILY BUILDINGS, UH, PRE 1990, I BELIEVE, CORRECT ME IF I'M WRONG, THEY GENERALLY, THEY MIGHT EVEN NEED THE FULL PANEL CHANGE. 
          SO THAT IS AN AVERSION, UH, TO INVESTMENT FROM PROPERTY MANAGERS. 
          AND RISK, RISK AVERSION, LIKE AS I SAID, YOU KNOW, THE, UH, THE MAINTENANCE IS MUCH EASIER FOR THE PROPERTY STAFF OR SUPERS FOR YOU FOR THAT MATTER. 
          AND THIS IS SOMETHING WE SEE EVERY DAY. 
          LAST YEAR, FOR EXAMPLE, UH, THERE WAS A PROPERTY STONE OAK ON PALMER WHERE WE WERE GOING THROUGH A VERY LARGE CHANGE OUT, AND WE SAW THAT, YOU KNOW, WHERE WE, UH, WHERE PROPERTY PROPERTIES TECHNICIANS ENDED UP WIRING IN A WRONG FASHION SO THAT WE INSTALL A HEAT PUMP, BUT THEN THE PROPERTY TECHNICIANS ENDED UP WRONG WIRING AND WE HAD TO GO BACK, CORRECT IT, INCORRECT EXTRA COST, LESSON LEARNED MEANING, YOU KNOW, LET'S, LET'S, UM, UM, EDUCATE PEOPLE MORE. 
          BUT AGAIN, WHEN YOU COME TO PROPERTY MANAGERS AND PROPERTY SUPERS, THEY PREFER THIS THING. 
          UM, OKAY, SO FURTHER JUST FINALLY, WHAT OTHER FEW CHALLENGES WE ARE SEEING BEFORE I GET INTO THE OPPORTUNITIES? UH, NEXT SLIDE PLEASE. 
          SO, PUT THIS ALL TOGETHER. 
          THE COST OF H EQUIPMENT, JUST LIKE COST OF ANY, ANYTHING ELSE HAS GONE UP. 
          INFLATIONARY EFFECTS. 
          UH, BUT ON TOP OF THAT, UH, THE IRA TAX CREDITS ARE NO LONGER HERE, WHICH WAS A KEY ITEM IN THE IRA FOR HEAT PUMPS. 
          THEY'RE NOT HERE ANYMORE. 
          UH, THE SEER UH, THE, THE SEER REQUIREMENTS REQUIRE LARGER COILS, WHICH END UP RESULTING IN HIGHER PRICE OF THESE, UM, UH, OF, OF HEAT PUMP UNITS. 
          THE REFRIGERATOR ISSUE IS RIGHT THERE. 
          UH, THESE HVAC COMPANIES, THEY'RE INCURRING HIGHER COST IN GAS AND DIESEL FOR ROLLING OUT TRUCKS. 
          IT ALL GOES INTO THE FINAL PRICE, THE PROJECT PRICE WHEN IN HOMEOWNER OR A MULTIFAMILY, UH, OWNER IS LOOKING INTO AND MAKING A DECISION OF INSTALLING HEAT PUMP. 
          COUPLE THAT WITH THE FACT THAT OUR HEATING DEGREE DAYS IS A LOT LESS AND A LOT OF HOMES ARE GAS HEATED. 
          THIS IS WHERE THE COST CHALLENGE BECOMES A LITTLE DIFFICULT FOR US IN, IN ESTABLISHING, UH, AN INCENTIVE AS THE MARKET IS CONSIDERABLY DIFFERENT. 
          UM, BUT NOT ALL IS LOST. 
          I MEAN, WE, OUR PROGRAMS ARE STILL DOING VERY WELL, AND THERE ARE SEVERAL NEW OPPORTUNITIES THAT ARE AVAILABLE THAT WE ARE TAKING ADVANTAGE AND, AND, AND WE ARE SHOWING THAT THROUGH OUR, UH, LARGER PRODUCTION, FOR EXAMPLE. 
          NEXT SLIDE PLEASE. 
          SOME OF THE OPPORTUNITIES THAT WE ARE WORKING WITH ARE, 
          [00:45:01]
UH, WE HAVE IN, WE HAVE INCREASED OUR REBATES LAST YEAR. 
          WE MAY AGAIN, UH, LOOK AT THESE REBATES TO THE, TO, TO THE MARKET AND CONTINUE TO INCREASE THEM IF THERE IS A ECONOMIC REASON. 
          WE HAVE A 0% LOAN THROUGH OUR VELOCITY PROGRAM. 
          WE HAVE EXTENDED THE LOAN THROUGHOUT THE YEAR, AND WE SAW A VERY LARGE NUMBER OF HOMEOWNERS PARTICIPATING TO OUR PROGRAM AND EMPLOY THE 0% LOAN OPPORTUNITY THAT WE HAVE FOR THEM. 
          WE HAVE RECENTLY WORKED AND LAUNCHED NEW CONSTRUCTION PROGRAMS WHERE WE ARE INCENTIVIZING BUILDERS TO THINK ABOUT ALL ELECTRIC SINGLE FAMILY HOMES, ALL ELECTRIC MULTIFAMILY HOMES, AND WE ARE GIVING THEM SEV SEVERAL PATHWAYS TO INCENTIVIZE INSTALLING HEAT PUMPS, GETTING THE LARGER PANEL FOR EV READINESS. 
          UH, UH, MAYBE EVEN, YOU KNOW, IN ONE OF THE PATHWAYS WE, WE PROVIDE ALMOST $4,300 INCENTIVE TO A HOME OR HOME BUILDER WHO GOES, UH, HEAT PUMPS AS WELL AS INDUCTION COOKING. 
          THEN, UM, GOOD NEWS IS THAT WE HAVE ALMOST $650 MILLION COMING TO TEXAS FROM, UH, FEDERAL GOVERNMENT HOMES AND HERE PROGRAM. 
          NOW, ONE, ONE CAUTION HERE. 
          THE FEDERAL RULES, BEFORE THEY RELEASE THE DOLLARS OR IN IN THE PROCESS OF RELEASING THE DOLLARS ARE CHANGED. 
          THEY NO LONGER SUPPORT FUEL SWITCHING. 
          SO ESSENTIALLY ALL THESE HOMES AND HERE REBATES ARE COMING TO TEXAS. 
          FUEL SWITCHING IS KIND OF PROHIBITED. 
          SO WE HAVE TO BE VERY CAREFUL. 
          WE ARE ACTIVELY WORKING WITH CCO AND APTI AND OTHER UTILITIES TO DESIGN THE PROGRAM, BUT WE FEEL LIKE THERE CAN BE A SIGNIFICANT ADVANTAGE TO, UH, REDUCE THE SPLIT INCENTIVES, UH, TO, TO SINGLE FAMILY HOMEOWNERS LOOKING TO EITHER INSTALL HEAT PUMPS OR GO HIGH EFFICIENCY AIR CONDITIONERS. 
          SO WITH THAT, UM, I WILL GO TO THE LAST SLIDE CONCLUDE. 
          SO WITH THAT, BASICALLY I JUST WANTED TO BRING THIS TOGETHER HERE TO SHOW THAT WE ARE RUNNING SOME OF THE MOST SUCCESSFUL PROGRAMS IN COUNTRY. 
          OUR PRODUCTION IS PRETTY DECENT WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE ECA DATA OR TO, TO OUR, UH, MARKET DYNAMICS. 
          GOING BACK TO MY 2026 NUMBER, ABOUT 21, ALMOST 2100 REBATES, 1500 OR SO IN AC AND ABOUT 500, CLOSE TO 500 IN HEAT PUMPS THAT EXACTLY REFLECT THE PERCENTAGE OF OUR HOMES, WHICH ARE GAS HEATED VERSUS FULLY ELECTRIC. 
          SO, SO WE ARE TRYING TO ADDRESS THE MARKET ON PROPORTIONAL BASIS AS, UH, AS, AS, AS MARKET HAS DIFFERENT KIND OF HITTING NEEDS, UH, WE WILL CONTINUE TO, UH, DESPITE THESE BARRIERS, WE ARE RUNNING THESE PROGRAMS AND WE WILL CONTINUE TO WORK WITH OUR CONTRACTOR PARTNERS. 
          WE HAVE, UH, BACK TO BASIC TRAININGS. 
          WE HAVE ESTABLISHED HEAT PUMP INSTALLATION TRAININGS IN THIS VERY ROOM. 
          WE HAD COUPLE OF LARGE, UM, MANUFACTURERS, UH, LIKE DECK IN CAME IN TO GIVE, UH, TECHNICAL TRAINING TO OUR INSTALL INSTALLATION CONTRACTORS. 
          AS AGAIN, HEAT PUMP INSTALLATION IS EVEN MORE COMPLEX. 
          SO WITH ALL THAT, WE ARE CON WE LOVE THIS PROGRAM. 
          WE CONTINUE TO EXPAND THESE PROGRAMS AND, AND I CAN TAKE ALL QUESTIONS, PLEASE. 
          THANK YOU SO MUCH. 
          UH, I'M SURE THERE'S A LOT OF INTEREST HERE. 
          LET'S START WITH COMMISSIONER SCHWARTZ OVER HERE. 
          OKAY. 
          I THINK IT'S ON. 
          UM, SO YOU, I JUST WANTED TO ASK YOU TO CLARIFY, YOU HAD MENTIONED THE HOMES IN HERE. 
          YEP. 
          YOU SAID HOMES IN HERE AND THAT FUEL SWITCHING, UH, INCENTIVES I GUESS, OR PROHIBITED, BUT THAT, SO HOW WOULD THAT, THE NON-FUEL SWITCHING, I GUESS THE NON-FUEL SWITCHING, UH, HEAT PUMP WOULD BE SWAPPING ELECTRICAL RESISTANCE FOR A HEAT PUMP. 
          IS, IS THAT CONSISTENT? SO ELECTRICAL RESISTANCE IS, IT IS STILL ELECTRIC HEAT PUMP IS ELECTRIC, SO THAT'S NOT A FUEL SWITCHING, RIGHT? IS YES. 
          FUEL SWITCHING IS ESSENTIALLY WHEN, WHEN THE ORIGINAL HOMES IN HERE PROGRAMS WERE DESIGNED AT THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT LEVEL, THE IDEA WAS TO PROMOTE HEAT PUMPS MM-HMM . 
          AND MOVE, MOVE AND USE THAT AWAY FROM FOSSIL FUEL BASED HEATING, WHETHER IT'S GAS OR ELECTRIC RESISTANCE, GAS TO ELECTRIC. 
          YES. 
          NOW THE NEW FEDERAL GOVERNMENT RULES, I UNDERSTAND PROHIBITS A CONVERSION LIKE, UM, LIKE A, A CUSTOMER WITH GAS FURNACE AND HIGH EFFICIENCY AIR CONDITIONER DECIDES TO GO AND INSTALL A LARGER HEAT PUMP. 
          I'M NOT SURE IF THEY WILL BE ELIGIBLE FOR THESE, THESE FUNDS. 
          OKAY. 
          UH, BUT A LOT OF DISCUSSION IS STILL HAPPENING. 
          UH, UH, CQO IS RUNNING THE SHOW AND WE ARE DEFINITELY ACTIVE THERE IN, IN DESIGNING THE PROGRAM. 
          AND OF COURSE, YOU KNOW, WE WANT TO MAKE SURE EVERY, ALL THE STAKEHOLDERS UNDERSTAND THAT, THAT PEOPLE, EVERYONE SHOULD GET AN OPPORTUNITY. 
          OKAY. 
          AND THAT THE, IN TERMS OF TIMELINE, I GUESS THOSE TWO AND CCOS WORK ON IT HERE, THAT'S MOVING TOWARDS BEING FINALIZED AND ROLLING OUT TO WHERE RESIDENTS CAN APPLY FOR THOSE, IS THAT CORRECT? YES, BECAUSE THIS, THESE, THESE ARE FEDERAL FUNDS COMING TO CCO AND THEY WERE GRACIOUS ENOUGH TO INVITE US AUS AUSTRAL ENERGY AND CPS AND OTHER UTILITIES TO, UH, THEIR ADVISORY. 
          SO WE ARE, THEY'RE IN THAT ADVISORY CAPACITY. 
          I BELIEVE THE WORK, WHEN I SEE THE PROGRESS OF WORK, I'M VERY OPTIMISTIC THAT IN VERY NEAR FUTURE, 
          [00:50:01]
UH, THAT THE PROGRAMS WILL BE DESIGNED FULLY AND, AND WILL BE ISSUING, YOU KNOW, ALL THESE REBATES, BUT THAT'S WAY BEYOND OUR CONTROL. 
          YEAH. 
          OKAY. 
          SO CAN THE UTILITY, CAN AUSTIN ENERGY INTEGRATE THAT INTO, I GET, I FORGET WHAT THE, THE NAME OF THE PROGRAM IS WITH THE FULL ENERGY AUDIT AND THEN RETROFIT IS THAT HOME IS, YEP. 
          SO HOMES IS HOMEOWNERS MANAGING ENERGY, AND HERE IS HOME ENERGY ELECTRIFICATION REBATE. 
          OKAY. 
          BUT WE, IN THE ADVISORY CAPACITY, THAT'S WHAT MY GOAL IN, IN, IN THOSE COMMITTEES IS TO MAKE SURE THAT THERE IS NO DESIGN. 
          SO THE COMMITTEE THAT SCO DOESN'T MAKE A DESIGN WHERE STACKING REBATES IS PROHIBITED. 
          OKAY. 
          SO IDEALLY I DO WANT TO INCENTIVIZE AND I DO WANT TO MAXIMIZE OUR REBATES, AVAILABLE REBATES ON TOP OF WHAT'S COMING IN HERE OR, OR, YEAH. 
          SHORT ANSWER, YES. 
          WE, THAT'S WHAT OUR GOAL IS. 
          YOU'RE THINKING ABOUT HOW IT CAN BE INTEGRATED, IS THAT, WELL, UH, THAT'S, THAT'S A LITTLE BIT OF AN IMPLEMENTATION DETAIL. 
          HARD FOR ME TO SAY IT NOW, BUT IF POLICY WISE WE CAN STACK INCENTIVES, WHICH I BELIEVE WE WILL BE ABLE TO THEN DOING SO SHOULDN'T TAKE US THAT IT'LL BE BASICALLY WHAT WE OFFER ON TOP OF THAT, WHAT REBATES, WHAT FEDERAL REBATES ARE THERE SUBJECT TO CERTAIN CRITERIA AND, AND WHATNOT. 
          OKAY. 
          SO THERE'S A CHANCE THAT WE, THE CONTRACTOR COMES IN AND PERFORMS THE AUDIT THAT AUSTIN ENERGY IS PAYING FOR, AND THEN THEY'RE SUGGESTING A FEW CHANGES, INCLUDING POSSIBLY SWITCHING ELECTRIC RESISTANCE, UH, HEATING TO A HEAT PUMP UNIT. 
          THERE'S A CHANCE THAT THESE HOMES, UH, INCENTIVES COULD BE, YOU KNOW, THAT, THAT THEY COULD, A CONTRACTOR OR THE RESIDENT CAN RECEIVE THOSE. 
          ABSOLUTELY. 
          I MEAN, THAT'S THE CASE TODAY AS WELL. 
          BUT WITH ADDITIONAL, THAT'S WHAT OUR AIM WILL BE. 
          OKAY, THANK YOU. 
          OKAY. 
          KENARD? YES. 
          UM, COMMISSIONER KENARD, THANK YOU VERY MUCH. 
          UM, THANKS VERY MUCH FOR THE PRESENTATION. 
          UH, SOME REALLY HELPFUL NUMBERS IN THERE. 
          ONE THING I'M STRUGGLING TO UNDERSTAND IS IF YOU HAVE A SENSE OF HOW MANY OF THESE INTERVENTIONS OR UPGRADES BROADLY DEFINED WOULD'VE HAPPENED WITHOUT THE PROGRAM, UH, IN THE SENSE OF A MEASURE OF HOW EFFECTIVE IT IS AS THAT ACTUAL SORT OF WAY OF MAKING THINGS HAPPEN? BECAUSE ONE OF MY CONCERNS IS, IS THAT WE'RE SPENDING MONEY, UH, BASICALLY PASSING THROUGH, UH, FUNDS TO RICH HOUSEHOLDS THAT WOULD'VE ALREADY HAD THE MONEY TO DO IT ANYWAY, AND THEY JUST END UP HAVING AN EXTRA SWEETENER. 
          BUT, BUT IT WAS STILL PART OF THE UPGRADE PACKAGE OR WHATEVER THEY WERE THINKING ABOUT DOING WHEN THEY WERE RENOVATING THEIR HOME OR HOWEVER IT WENT. 
          SO DO YOU HAVE ANY SENSE OF THAT? SO I DON'T HAVE ON TOP OF MY HEAD A WAY TO TELL YOU WHAT IS THE FREE RIDERSHIP OF THESE PROGRAMS? I BELIEVE THIS IS ESSENTIALLY WHAT YOU'RE ASKING IF WE HAVE A WHOLE FREE RIDERSHIP. 
          UM, I DON'T HAVE THAT ON TOP OF MY HEAD. 
          HOWEVER, GOOD NEWS IS THAT, UH, IN FISCAL YEAR 2026, WE BROUGHT IN AN INDEPENDENT EVALUATION MEASUREMENT AND VERIFICATION CONSULTANT TO HELP US FIGURE OUT EXACTLY THESE DETAILS AND ADDRESS AND CHANGE OUR PROGRAMS. I'M LOOKING AT MY TEAM IF THEY HAVE ANY, ANYTHING TO HELP ME OUT HERE. 
          BRIGHT LINE, UM, USE THE MICRO, USE THE MIC PLEASE. 
          I HAVE, UH, HOLLY PROSSER HERE, MANAGER OF EFFICIENCY PROGRAMS TO HELP ME ADD TO THIS QUESTION. 
          THANKS. 
          YEAH. 
          UM, WE SET OUR, UM, MY NAME IS HOLLY PROSER. 
          I'M THE MANAGER FOR RESIDENTIAL ENERGY EFFICIENCY SERVICES. 
          UH, WE SET THE ENERGY EFFICIENCY STANDARDS TO ALIGN WITH THE CONSORTIUM FOR ENERGY EFFICIENCY, WHICH IS A PRETTY HIGH STANDARD. 
          SO WHEN YOU, YOU KNOW, I THINK YOU CAN BE MORE CONCERNED ABOUT FREE RIDERSHIP WHEN YOU HAVE A VERY LOW STANDARD FOR CUSTOMERS TO GET THAT REBATE, BUT BECAUSE THESE ARE HIGH EFFICIENT UNITS, UM, THE, THE FREE RIDERSHIP IS LIKELY TO BE, UM, PRETTY LOW. 
          SO. 
          OKAY. 
          UM, THANK YOU VERY MUCH. 
          UH, AND THEN THERE WAS ONE OTHER QUESTION I HAD, IF, IF, IF THAT'S OKAY. 
          UM, THE RATE OF, UM, DO, DO YOU HAVE ANY NUMBERS ON HOW MANY UPGRADES ARE HAPPENING THAT AREN'T CONNECTED TO THIS PROGRAM? SO I I, I DID A VERY QUICK ROUGH NUMBER OF LIKE, YOU HAD SOME, SOME STATS ON THE NUMBER OF INSTALLATIONS THIS YEAR, AND IT'S BEEN AT THAT MANY OVER 10 YEARS OR WHATEVER, AND I, I THINK I MIGHT BE WAY OFF, BUT I THINK IT LOOKS LIKE IT'LL TAKE 250 YEARS TO SWITCH ALL OF THE, UM, ENERGY SYSTEMS OUT AT THE CURRENT RATE. 
          AND I RECOGNIZE THERE'S OTHER STUFF GOING ON, BUT THAT, DO YOU SEE WHAT I'M GETTING AT HERE? WHAT ELSE IS HAPPENING THAT'S NOT CONNECTED TO WHAT, TO YOUR PROGRAM? YEAH, SO THAT'S, THAT'S AGAIN, GOES BACK INTO THE CALCULATION OF FREE RIDERSHIP IN TERMS OF WHAT WOULD BE HAPPENING IN THE MARKET. 
          I EVEN, FORTUNATELY, AGAIN, DON'T HAVE IT ON TOP OF MY HEAD IN TERMS OF, YOU KNOW, WHAT ORGANICALLY HAPPENING IN MARKET, WHICH IS NOT INFLUENCED BY US, BUT DATABASES LIKE EHRI AND SOME OTHER DATABASES PROBABLY WE CAN USE TO SEE WHAT OTHER TOTAL SALES NUMBER OF A CERTAIN PRODUCTS. 
          HOWEVER, I WOULD ASSUME 
          [00:55:01]
THAT A LOT OF THE CHANGE OUTS THAT ARE HAPPENING OUTSIDE OF OUR PROGRAM ARE JUST BASELINE, ARE BASELINE LIFE ALIKE CHANGES. 
          UH, OTHERWISE, YOU KNOW, WE, OUR PROGRAMS HAVE BEEN RUNNING FOR A WHILE AND EVERY CONTRACTOR HAS TO TELL THEIR CUSTOMERS ABOUT THESE, UM, REBATES AVAILABLE. 
          BUT I, UNFORTUNATELY, I DON'T HAVE IT ON TOP OF MY MIND, ON TOP OF MY HEAD. 
          WE PROBABLY LATER CAN LOOK INTO DIFFERENT A HRI DATABASES TO SEE WHAT IS OVERALL SALES LOOK LIKE IN AUSTIN MARKET. 
          YEAH, THAT WOULD BE REALLY HELPFUL TO GET THOSE NUMBERS. 
          UM, IF YOU'RE ABLE TO THOUGH. 
          THANKS VERY MUCH. 
          APPRECIATE IT. 
          GO AHEAD, COMMISSIONER SILVERSTEIN, THANK YOU FOR THIS PRESENTATION AND THE NUMBERS. 
          THE, I ADDED UP THE NUMBER OF REBATES OVER THE, GIVEN YOUR, YOUR DATA OVER THE LAST 10 YEARS, AND WITH 22 AND A HALF MEGAWATTS SAVED FROM RESIDENTIAL SINGLE FAMILY HOMES AND 32.8 MEGAWATTS SAVED ON MULTIFAMILY, THAT'S ONLY 55 MEGAWATTS, WHICH IS LESS THAN 2% OF AUSTIN'S 3000 MEGAWATT PEAK LOAD TODAY. 
          AND, AND, UM, THE, I'M FRUSTRATED IT'S NOT A BIGGER NUMBER AS YOU CAN IMAGINE. 
          AND, AND THE, IT SEEMS TO ME STRATEGICALLY THAT IT WOULD BE VERY BENEFICIAL GIVEN THE, THE, THE FACT THAT CLOSE TO 50% OF ERCOT TOTAL PEAK LOAD IS, UM, AIR CONDITIONING IN THE SUMMER AND, AND WINTER HEATING ON VERY COLD WINTER DAYS, RESIDENTIAL AND SMALL COMMERCIAL, AGAIN DRIVE LIKE 40 TO 50% OF TOTAL LOAD. 
          SO IT WOULD SEEM TO ME THAT THE PEAK AND NET PEAK SAVINGS FROM CHANGING OUT OLD AIR CONDITIONERS AND HEAT ELECTRIC HEATING TO HIGH EFFICIENCY HEAT PUMPS WOULD BE EXTRAORDINARILY LARGE. 
          AND SO MY QUESTION IS, WHY AREN'T YOUR GOALS MUCH MORE AMBITIOUS, AND WHAT IS THE COST EFFECTIVENESS OF THE WHAT ARE, WHEN YOU CALCULATE, WHEN YOU LOOK ACROSS THE RANGE OF ENERGY EFFICIENCY PROGRAMS, THIS MAY BE A GOOD TIME FOR YOU TO START WALKING. 
          MS. PROSSER, WHAT IS THE RANGE OF COST EFFECTIVENESS OF HEAT PUMP PROGRAMS RELATIVE TO OTHER ENERGY EFFICIENCY PROGRAMS THAT YOU OFF AND MEASURES THAT YOU OFFER, PLEASE? SO, EXCELLENT QUESTION, UH, COMMISSIONER SILVERSTEIN, UH, AND KIND OF RIGHT CONTEXT, BUT LET ME JUST ADD COUPLE OF, UM, AT THAT POINT OF VIEWS HERE AND THEN THEN, YOU KNOW, LET ME TRY TO ADDRESS, SO 22.8 MEGAWATT OR 30 MEGAWATT THAT WE ARE REPORTING, OR I HAVE IT HERE, ARE JUST ISOLATED SAVINGS FROM HVAC SYSTEMS. BUT OUR PORTFOLIO IS A VERY, COM IS A COMPREHENSIVE PORTFOLIO, IS PROBABLY THE MOST COMPREHENSIVE PORTFOLIO IN THE STATE OF TEXAS, IF NOT ENTIRE SOUTHWEST, WHERE WE ARE BASICALLY HELPING CUSTOMERS ACHIEVE ENERGY EFFICIENCY VIA VARIOUS METHODS. 
          HVAC, WEATHERIZATION, UP UNTIL UP UNTIL COUPLE YEARS AGO, LIGHTING WAS PRETTY BIG THING AND LIGHTING WAS THE, THE MOST, UM, EASY, EASIEST, AS WELL AS COST EFFECTIVE, UM, UH, MEASURE, UH, WITH, UH, WITH, WITH A  PRO IN A  PROGRAM STRATEGIC, UH, PARTNERSHIP WITH, WITH, WITH, IN, WITH UTI BETWEEN UTILITIES AND RETAILERS, WE HAVE ALMOST 20 DIFFERENT PRODUCTS ON THE SHELF AS CLOSE AS HOME DEPOT FOR, UH, FOR SAVINGS. 
          SO BASICALLY A PORTFOLIO IS A COMPREHENSIVE PORTFOLIO. 
          THEN THERE IS A DEMAND RESPONSE ASPECT. 
          WE HAVE 40,000 THERMOSTATS IN THE PROGRAM AND ALMOST FEW HUNDRED BATTERIES NOW. 
          SO PORTFOLIOS, THE OVERALL GOALS ARE SET AT THE PORTFOLIO LEVEL AND AT THE PORTFOLIO LEVEL, WE ARE TRYING TO MEET OUR RESOURCE GENERATION PLAN GOALS. 
          YES, I TOTALLY AGREE WITH YOU THAT A VERY LARGE FULFILLMENT OF THIS GOAL CAN AND SHOULD HAPPEN WITH THE H WORK, UH, MARKET. 
          BUT THEN AGAIN, YOU KNOW, UH, WITH THE RISING COST, WITH THE DEGREE DAYS, WE HAVE TO LOOK AT THE ENTIRE PICTURE IN TERMS OF COST BENEFIT. 
          I DON'T HAVE THE NUMBERS ON TOP OF MY HEAD, HOWEVER, I CAN TELL YOU THAT NONE OF OUR RESIDENTIAL PROGRAM IS UNDER ONE TRC, I BELIEVE OUR A EP PROGRAM, UH, APPLIANCE EFFICIENCY PROGRAM, WHERE WE ARE THE, WE HAVE THE LARGEST, THAT'S OUR LARGEST CHANNEL FOR STANDALONE REBATES THAT TRC IS OVER TWO. 
          I'M JUST GOING WITH MY, AND I'M, I'M ALWAYS IN THESE NUMBERS AND I'M TOTALLY GOING BLANK, BUT THAT'S A HIGHLY COST EFFECTIVE PROGRAM. 
          THE LOWER COST EFFECTIVE PROGRAM, WHICH IS ALSO ABOVE ONE IS WEATHERIZATION PROGRAM OR HES PROGRAM WHERE WE ARE DOING WHOLE HOUSE RETROFITS, BUT THEY ALSO PASS THE COST EFFECTIVENESS IN MANY CASES. 
          SO WE ARE NOT FEELING IT NOW AT THE MEASURE LEVEL, WHETHER EVERY HEAT PUMP OR EVERY AIR CONDITIONER PASSES COST EFFECTIVENESS. 
          THAT, I DON'T KNOW, PERHAPS THERE ARE CERTAIN MODELS WHICH DON'T, BUT WE TRY TO LOOK AT 
          [01:00:01]
THE, THE AT LEAST PROGRAM OR PORTFOLIO LEVEL WHEN IT COMES TO COST EFFECTIVENESS AND WE ARE COST EFFECTIVE, UH, BY A MARGIN. 
          YEAH. 
          WELL, AND, AND I AM NOT QUESTIONING THAT THESE, THAT THESE MEASURES ARE COST EFFECTIVE. 
          I'M JUST WONDERING WHETHER HEAT PUMPS COULD BE SIGNIFICANTLY MORE COST EFFECTIVE AND STRATEGICALLY VALUABLE THAN MANY OTHER OF THE PROGRAMS THAT YOU OFFER. 
          AND, AND I'M WONDERING WHETHER IT IS POSSIBLE TO DESIGN DELIVERY STRATEGIES THAT DON'T TRY TO, TO DELIVER LIKE CUSTOMIZED MEASURES TO EVERY HOME, BUT WE'RE GONNA COME IN AND WE'RE GONNA GIVE YOU THE BIG FIVE, LIKE HERE'S YOUR MINIMUM LEVEL OF INSULATION, YOUR SMART THERMOSTAT, YOUR HEAT PUMP REPLACEMENT, AND, AND YOU KNOW, ONE OR TWO OTHER POOL PUMP, UM, ON A DEMAND RESPONSE SWITCH CON CONTROL AND, AND, AND, AND OFFER THOSE THROUGH NEIGHBORHOOD SATURATION KIND OF THINGS, RATHER THAN JUST GOING ONE CUSTOMER AT A TIME IN ORDER TO INCREASE TO LOWER THE COST AND INCREASE THIS, THE DELIVERY VIABILITY AND SPEED OF, OF SOME OF THESE THINGS. 
          IT, IT'S JUST, IT SEEMS TO ME THERE IS SO MUCH POTENTIAL VALUE IN THIS SET OF, OF A LIMITED SET OF PRO OF HEAT PUMP INCLUSIVE PROGRAMS TO A HUGE NUMBER OF AUSTIN FAMILIES AND TO THE AUSTIN PORTFOLIO OVERALL IN TERMS OFOP CREATING OPERATIONAL SLACK FOR, FOR RESERVES AND RESILIENCE AND RELIABILITY. 
          UH, I HAVE MADE A MENTAL NOTE WILL DEFINITELY, UM, TAKE EVERYTHING, UH, COMMISSIONER TON YOU SAID INTO ADVISEMENT AGAIN, UM, NOT, NOT TO BELABOR IT, BUT A SHORT ANSWER, YES, WE WANT TO MAXIMIZE EVERY POSSIBLE CHANNEL TO GET ALL ENERGY EFFICIENCY SAVINGS THAT WE CAN GET. 
          WHEN WE LOOK AT THE HVAC, THE ACTUAL MARKET WHERE THE VERY LARGE NUMBER OF HOMES ARE GAS HEATED, THAT THEY ARE, AS MUCH AS I WOULD LOVE THEM TO BECOME ALL ELECTRIC AND GO HEAT PUMPS, IN MANY CASES THE ECONOMICS POINT THEM TOWARDS HIGH EFFICIENCY AIR CONDITIONERS. 
          WHAT WE ARE TRYING TO DO IS THAT AGAIN, WE WANT AND WE WANT PEOPLE TO WEATHER AS THEIR HOMES. 
          WE LOOK, WANT PEOPLE TO LOOK AT THE HOMES AS A WHOLE. 
          AS A, AS A, AS A SYSTEM. 
          A FULL SYSTEM. 
          YEAH. 
          YEAH. 
          WHICH IS ONE OF THE REASONS WHY NEIGHBORHOOD TARGETING IS SO VALUABLE FOR THIS KIND OF PROGRAM IS BECAUSE ALL OF THESE THINGS WERE DONE BY A SINGLE DEVELOPER AT A SINGLE POINT IN TIME USING A SINGLE TECHNOLOGY AND, AND APPLIANCE APPROACH. 
          POINT WELL TAKEN. 
          THE POINT WELL TAKEN WILL DEFINITELY, UH, BRING THIS INTO ADVISEMENT AND, AND AS WE ARE OPTIMIZING OUR PORTFOLIO, THE EK DATA IS COMING MORE AND MORE HANDY TO US. 
          WE KNOW SO MUCH ABOUT OUR SERVICE TERRITORY, THAT NEXT GENERATION OF PROGRAMS AS WE ARE TRYING TO ACHIEVE OUR GP GOALS. 
          LOOKING AT A CERTAIN NEIGHBORHOOD OR CERTAIN AREAS IS DEFINITELY NOT OUT OF THE QUESTION, BUT WE'LL TAKE THAT INTO ADVISEMENT. 
          YES. 
          THANK YOU SO MUCH. 
          AND, AND THANKS TO TO THE REST OF YOUR TEAM FOR, FOR ALL YOUR WORK ON THIS. 
          YOU'RE WELCOME. 
          BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, 58, 55 MEGAWATTS ISN'T NOTHING, BUT IT COULD BE A HUNDRED. 
          IT COULD BE 200. 
          SO THANK YOU. 
          THANK YOU. 
          UM, VICE CHAIR ROBBINS, UM, THERE IS A REQUIREMENT IN THE BUILDING CODE FOR HEAT PUMPS TO BE USED IN NEW CONSTRUCTION FOR UNITS OVER 500 SQUARE FEET. 
          UH, SO I'M ASSUMING YOUR PROGRAM COMP, UH, WORKS AROUND THAT. 
          YES. 
          I, WELL, I'M SORRY. 
          I SHOULD ADD THIS IS, IT DOESN'T MANDATE HEAT PUMPS. 
          IT MANDATES HEAT PUMPS IF IT'S A SINGLE FUEL HOME. 
          FORGIVE ME. 
          AND SO THIS HAS BEEN IN EFFECT SINCE, I GUESS 19 90, 19 89. 
          90 90, YES. 
          OKAY. 
          AND SO YOU'RE DESIGNING AROUND THAT? YEAH. 
          SO THAT'S FOR THE NEW CONSTRUCTION, RIGHT? YEAH, SO OUR PROGRAMS ENERGY EFFICIENCY PROGRAMS ARE MOSTLY FOR RETROFIT, BUT YES, WE HAVE A NEW CONSTRUCTION PROGRAM THAT WE HAVE JUST LAUNCHED IS, IS FOR THE BUILDERS TO BUILD ALL ELECTRIC HOMES. 
          OKAY. 
          WHAT ABOUT, UM, WHAT ABOUT HOT WATER HEAT PUMPS? WE HAVE HEAT PUMP, WATER HEAT AS WE JUST INCREASED THOSE REBATES FROM $800 TO 1000 COUPLE MONTHS AGO. 
          I SAW THAT AND I'M, I'M, I'M VERY HAPPY. 
          I'M NOT SURE, WE DON'T KNOW YET HOW MUCH THAT'S GONNA MOVE THE NEEDLE. 
          I DON'T THINK WE KNOW YET, BUT I'M GLAD THAT THAT'S HAPPENED. 
          YEAH. 
          UH, UM, AND WE, IN THE NEW CONSTRUCTION, 
          [01:05:01]
WE HAVE, IN THE NEW CONSTRUCTION PROGRAMS, WE HAVE SEVERAL PATHWAYS FOR THE BUILDERS. 
          I BELIEVE IN EACH PATHWAY, A BUILD, AT LEAST IN TWO OF THE THREE PATHWAYS. 
          IN ORDER FOR A BUILDER TO GET INCENTIVE FOR US, THEY MUST HAVE WATER HEATING VIA HEAT PUMP WATER HEATER. 
          SO WE ARE PROMOTING IN THE NEW CONSTRUCTION AS WELL. 
          UH, THAT'S, THAT'S, THAT'S GREAT. 
          I'M HAPPY TO HEAR THAT. 
          UM, AND FINALLY, I JUST WANNA ADD, WHEREAS, UH, COMMISSIONER SILVERSTEIN, UH, COMMISSIONER SILVERSTEIN, UH, THANK YOU, COMMISSIONER, WHATEVER, UH, HAS, UH, ASKED ABOUT COST EFFECTIVENESS. 
          UH, WE USED TO HAVE AN ANNUAL COST EFFECTIVENESS REPORT AND WE DON'T GET THOSE ANYMORE. 
          AND I SURE HOPE YOU START DOING THAT AGAIN. 
          UH, WE'LL DEFINITELY TAKE THAT INTO ADVISEMENT. 
          THANK YOU. 
          THANK YOU. 
          UH, COMMISSIONER LUKI. 
          THANK YOU. 
          UM, IRONICALLY THIS AFTERNOON I HAD A CONVERSATION WITH A AC GUY AT A RESIDENCE THAT I WAS WORKING AT AND TALKING ABOUT THIS VERY SUBJECT OF HEAT PUMPS. 
          AND HE POINTED OUT THAT THE, THERE WAS ONE DRAWBACK TO THE HEAT PUMP, AND THAT IS, IF IT'S VERY, VERY, VERY COLD, WHICH HAPPENS HERE FROM TIME TO TIME, THE HEAT PUMP WITH ITS VERSION OF HEATING WILL AUTOMATICALLY TURN ONTO THE HEATER. 
          I FORGOT THE TERM FOR IT, UH, BUT IT WAS STRIP, STRIP HEATING. 
          EXACTLY. 
          AND HE SAID SUDDENLY YOU'RE USING AN ENORMOUS AMOUNT OF ENERGY ALL AT ONCE FOR THAT, ESPECIALLY IF IT'S VERY COLD. 
          NOW, OBVIOUSLY THAT ONLY HAPPENS HERE FROM TIME TO TIME. 
          IT'S NOT REALLY A BIG THREAT, BUT IT SEEMED LIKE THAT WAS THE ONE DRAWBACK TO THE SYSTEM. 
          AND, UH, UH, BOY WOULD THAT BE A TERRIBLE THING FOR THAT TO, TO FAIL RIGHT IN THE MIDDLE OF ALL OF THE COLDEST DAY THAT THERE IS. 
          UM, AND I'M WONDERING IF Y'ALL HAVE TAKEN THAT INTO CONSIDERATION AT ALL FOR, UM, SOME KIND OF LARGER SYSTEM INSTALLATION. 
          I, I DON'T KNOW IF YOU EVEN NO, ABSOLUTELY. 
          SO WHAT COMMISSIONER, UM, LOOK YOU POINT OUT IS ONE OF THE KEY BARRIERS AND KEY CHALLENGES IN HEAT MAP INSTALLATION WHEN IT COMES TO COLDER CLIMATE. 
          AS YOU RIGHTFULLY POINTED, WE DON'T HAVE THAT MUCH OF A COLDER CLIMATE. 
          NOT TOO LONG AGO, WE DID A LITTLE ANALYSIS TO SEE HOW MANY NUMBER OF DAYS APPROXIMATELY WE HAVE UNDER, UNDER 32 DEGREES. 
          THAT'S WHEN THIS ISSUE BECOMES PREVALENT. 
          IT'S VERY FEW DAYS IN TEXAS. 
          SO NOT SAYING THAT BECAUSE OF THAT WE IGNORE THE ISSUE. 
          WE STILL VERY MUCH THINK ABOUT THIS ISSUE. 
          BUT THE WAY WE WANT TO THINK ABOUT THIS ISSUE IS, AS I WAS TRYING TO EXPLAIN, COMMISSIONER SILVERSTEIN OR SILVERSTEIN, SORRY, WHATEVER, COMMISSIONER SILVERSTEIN, THAT, UH, WE HAVE A PORTFOLIO OF PROGRAMS AND WE WANT TO HELP OUR CUSTOMERS OR THINK OF OUR CUSTOMERS, THEIR HOMES OR THEIR BUSINESS OR THEIR PREMISES AS A WHOLE, WHOLE APPROACH, WHOLE HOUSE OR WHOLE BUS FACILITY APPROACH. 
          THAT'S WHY WE FOCUS A LOT ON WEATHERIZATION. 
          SO THIS PARTICULAR CHALLENGE, ESPECIALLY IN OUR ENVIRONMENT, CAN BE TACKLED AND EASILY TACKLED IF THE SYSTEM IS DESIGNED PROPERLY AFTER THE WEATHERIZATION IS DONE. 
          SO THAT COUPLE OF DAYS, THREE OR FOUR DAYS, YOU ARE NOT OVERSTATING THE SYSTEM OR THE HOME AND SUDDENLY, YOU KNOW, THE HOLIER SAVINGS ARE GONE. 
          SO THAT'S HOW WE ARE LOOKING INTO IT. 
          THE OTHER WAYS TO, THE OTHER WAYS THE MARKET IS COMING AROUND IS THAT ACTUALLY THE, THE, THE STANDARDS THAT WE HAVE, THEY FOLLOW CEE AS AS, UH, MY COLLEAGUE, UH, POINTED OUT TO THE CE STANDARDS NOW, UH, EFFECTIVELY REQUIRE TESTING DATA AT FIVE DEGREE DAY. 
          SO ANYTHING THAT IS MEETING THOSE STANDARDS, THOSE SYSTEMS ARE PERFORMING AT A CERTAIN LEVEL ON A FIVE DEGREE DAY. 
          OF COURSE, FIVE DEGREE DAYS DOESN'T HAPPEN THAT OFTEN HERE. 
          SO BETWEEN THOSE TWO THINGS, WE BELIEVE THAT'S THE RIGHT WAY TO THINK ABOUT THIS. 
          ONE, ONE OFF SITUATION, WHICH, WHICH CAN BE A PRETTY SIGNIFICANT ISSUE FOR, FOR A HOMEOWNER. 
          BUT IF, IF I MAY, THAT'S PART OF HOW, HOW HVAC CONTRACTORS TRY TO TALK PEOPLE OUT OF GETTING A HEAT PUMP IS THEY WARN YOU ABOUT THE, THE THIS COULD HAPPEN AND IT'LL BE BAD. 
          AND IT, IT DID HAPPEN. 
          AND IT'S WAY WORSE WITH STRIP HEATING AS WE FOUND DURING WINTER STORM URI. 
          'CAUSE THAT JUST TURNS INTO LIKE A HAIR DRYER NONSTOP FOR DAYS AT A STRETCH. 
          'CAUSE IT NEVER WORKS. 
          WHICH IS WHY WEATHERIZATION AND INSULATION ARE SO IMPORTANT, IS TO REDUCE THE AMOUNT THAT YOU HAVE TO RUN YOUR, YOUR HEATER TO KEEP THE PEOPLE INSIDE WARM. 
          AND THANK YOU. 
          YES. 
          I, I I NOTICED THAT THAT WAS A KNEE JERK REACTION ON THE PART OF THE, UH, THE AC GUY WHEN WE WERE STARTING, WHEN I ASKED ABOUT THAT. 
          'CAUSE I DO ASK THEM ABOUT THAT JUST KIND OF GENERALLY SPEAKING, JUST TO GET THEIR RESPONSE TO IT. 
          AND IT SEEMED LIKE IT WAS A KIND OF A, A WAY OF, OF, 
          [01:10:01]
UH, CONTROLLING THE, THE, THE CONVERSATION. 
          UH, AND THAT'S A VERY REASON WE DO BACK TO BASIC TRAININGS AND HEAT PUMP INSTALLATION TRAININGS TO EDUCATE OUR CONTRACTORS THAT YOU KNOW HOW TO GO ABOUT THESE SITUATIONS. 
          WELL, REGARDING THE HEAT PUMP WATER HEATER, I LOOKED INTO THAT PRETTY HARD A COUPLE OF YEARS AGO. 
          AND, UH, I THINK THE PROBLEM WITH IT IS THAT IT'S VERY EXPENSIVE TO DO, TO PULL ONE OUT AND TO, TO TAKE THE GAS YEAH. 
          OUT AND PUT THE ELECTRIC IN. 
          THE NUMBER WAS ASTOUNDING. 
          AND IT WAS MORE LIKE 13 TO $15,000 TO DO IT. 
          AND, AND THAT IS A CALLING, A REGULAR, UM, UH, INSTALLATION COMPANY. 
          AND JUST ASKING POINT BLANK WHAT THAT WAS TO DO. 
          AND, AND I WAS, I WAS SHOCKED ACTUALLY AT, AT THE COST COMM COMMISSIONER LUKI. 
          I'M SURE YOU DID GET THAT QUOTE. 
          I HAVE A, ONE OF OUR, UH, FRIENDS ON THE ELECTRIC UTILITY COMMISSION GOT A RETROFIT A COUPLE YEARS AGO FROM A, A GAS UNIT TO UH, UH, HOT WATER HEAT PUMP. 
          AND HE TOLD ME IT WAS SOMETHING LIKE $2,100. 
          UH, NOW THAT'S ONE PERSON IN ONE SITUATION. 
          I'M JUST SAYING IT, I DON'T THINK IT'S AS HIGH AS, AS, UH, WHAT YOU WERE GIVEN, BUT OKAY. 
          IT'S HIGH. 
          RIGHT. 
          WELL, I'M VERY HAPPY TO HEAR THAT THE REBATE HAS GONE UP TO A THOUSAND. 
          OKAY. 
          UH, COMMISSIONER FARMER. 
          UM, THANK YOU. 
          UH, SO THE, ARE ANY OF THE NEW CONSTRUCTION PROGRAMS, UH, AIMED AT SINGLE FAMILY OR IS THAT ALL FOR MULTIFAMILY? NO, THEY'RE BOTH FOR SINGLE FAMILY AND MULTIFAMILY. 
          SINGLE FAMILY IS, UM, IS THE ONE WE ACTUALLY STARTED, UM, THE RECENT ONE PRIOR TO WHERE, WHERE IS THAT? CAN, CAN YOU SEND IT? YOU COULD FOLLOW UP, BUT I JUST, IT'S LIKE, I'M NOT FINDING IT ON THE INCENTIVES PAGE. 
          THERE'S LIKE A WHOLE BAR FOR NEW CONSTRUCTION FOR COMMERCIAL AND MULTIFAMILY, BUT THEN WHEN YOU GO TO SINGLE FAMILY, THERE'S NOTHING THAT SAYS LIKE NEW CONSTRUCTION. 
          IT SEEMS LIKE I HAVE A FOLLOW UP ON THAT. 
          YEAH, THAT'S JUST COOL. 
          THAT'S EXCITING. 
          COMMISSIONER SCHWARTZ, I'M BREAKING THE RULE AND ASKING AGAIN. 
          UM, SO I DON'T KNOW WHAT, IF IT'S FORWARD OR BACKWARD. 
          THERE'S A SLIDE THAT HAD $400 PER TON FOR THE HEAT PUMP REBATE. 
          UM, I GUESS WE DON'T NEED TO FIND IT, BUT I WAS JUST WONDERING, I GUESS I DON'T KNOW A LOT ABOUT HOW LIKE THE PROCESS IS TO ARRIVE AT THOSE NUMBERS FOR REBATES LIKE THAT. 
          AND OBVIOUSLY IT INVOLVES THE COST JUSTIFICATION. 
          UM, AND IF WE TALKED A MINUTE AGO ABOUT FOUR CP VERSUS THE NEW 12 CP, AND OBVIOUSLY THAT WOULD INCLUDE, YOU KNOW, THE EXTRA CONGESTION COSTS IN THE WINTER MONTHS, WHICH WOULD AFFECT, I GUESS, THE AMOUNT OF VALUE THAT THESE SORTS OF PROGRAMS WOULD PROVIDE FOR THE UTILITY. 
          AND THEN ALSO, OBVIOUSLY AFTER 2021, THERE'S A, A MUCH DIFFERENT EVALUATION OF HOW MUCH THE KIND OF THE VALUE OF THOSE WINTER MONTHS ARE FOR THE UTILITY. 
          SO WHEN WAS LIKE THE LAST TIME THAT THE UTILITY EVALUATES THAT AND HOW IS THAT, HOW DOES THAT PROCESS LOOK LIKE? WHAT, WHAT ALL DO YOU LOOK AT AND, UH, TO COME UP WITH THAT $400 TON NUMBER AND WHEN'S THE NEXT TIME? YEAH, SO COMMISSIONER FROM A FEW DIFFERENT THINGS, YOU, YOU, UH, TOUCHED. 
          SO $400 A TON IS INCENTIVE AMOUNT. 
          RIGHT NOW WE ARE OFFERING IN THE MULTI-FAMILY SPACE, WHEN WE ARE SETTING INCENTIVE, WE LOOK AT MULTIPLE DIFFERENT THINGS IN TERMS OF, YOU KNOW, WHAT IS AN AVERAGE COST OF TOTAL PROJECT, UM, WHAT OUR CONTRACTORS TELL US, WE'LL MOVE THE MARKET AND WHAT HAVE YOU. 
          SO WE ARE ALWAYS LOOKING AT OUR INCENTIVE LEVELS AND REFRESHING THEM AS NEEDED. 
          I'M NOT SURE EXACTLY WHEN DID WE REFRESH THIS, BUT IT WAS IN, IN, IN, IN NEAR PAST WHERE WE WENT IN AND WE UPDATED THE PRO THE, THE INCENTIVES IN TERMS OF THE FOUR CP OR THE OTHER THINGS YOU MENTIONED. 
          NOW HEAT PUMPS ARE VERY, VERY EFFICIENT MEASURES OR, OR TECHNOLOGIES. 
          SO THEIR IMPACT ON THE DEMAND, ON THE PEAK DEMAND IS, IS, IS VERY LITTLE. 
          SO THEY'RE ALREADY SO EFFICIENT THAT THEY, THEY DON'T EXACTLY HAVE THAT MUCH VALUE WHEN IT COMES TO FOUR CCP. 
          WE ARE LOOKING AT, YOU KNOW, FOUR CP FROM MANY DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVES. 
          SO FOR A HEAT PUMP OR AN AIR CONDITIONER TO BE PART OF FOUR CP, WE NEED TO HAVE A CONTROL ON IT, LIKE A SMART THERMOSTAT. 
          SO THAT'S WHERE WE MEASURE THE PERFORMANCE. 
          WE HAVE ALMOST 40,000 SMART THERMOSTATS, UH, UH, IN, IN OUR POWER PARTNER PROGRAM. 
          UH, IN TERMS OF, AGAIN, YOU KNOW, HOW WE EVALUATE THE, THAT PROGRAM. 
          UH, WE HAVE EVALUATION CONSULTANTS SINCE LAST YEAR WHO IS NOW LOOKING AT ALL OF OUR PROGRAM, OUR IMPACT AND, AND, AND HELPING US, YOU KNOW, LOOK AT THE COST EFFECTIVENESS. 
          BUT INTERNALLY 
          [01:15:01]
IN MY TEAM, WE DONE COST EFFECTIVENESS EVERY YEAR. 
          WE ARE LOOKING AT OUR PROGRAMS COST BENEFIT ANALYSIS EVERY YEAR BECAUSE AGAIN, WE JUST ONLY WANT TO DO PROGRAMS WHICH ARE COST, COST EFFECTIVE. 
          SO TOGETHER, THERE ARE MULTIPLE WAYS TO LOOK AT IT. 
          YEAH. 
          OKAY. 
          WELL, IT REDUCES, IF YOU'RE SWITCHING FROM RESISTIVE HEATING TO HEAT PUMP, IT'S GONNA REDUCE THE PEAK LOAD IN THE WINTER IN THOSE WINTER MONTHS BY A LOT, RIGHT? YEAH. 
          LIKE A FACTOR OF THREE. 
          YEAH. 
          BUT REMEMBER WE HAVE ONLY 13% OF SINGLE FAMILY HOMES WHICH HAVE SINGLE ELECTRIC RESISTANCE. 
          HEATING IS STILL A VERY LARGE HEATING IS DONE BY GAS. 
          SO YES. 
          YEAH. 
          IN THEORY, YES. 
          BUT IN PRACTICALITY, THE MARKET IS, IS STILL NOT THAT BIG. 
          HOWEVER, AGAIN, WE ARE ATTACKING IT. 
          THAT'S WHY WE HAVE INCENTIVES AND, AND ALL THESE PROGRAMS. OKAY. 
          AND THEN DOES, I GUESS THE, THE EFFICIENCY METRIC, WOULD THAT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT THE CONGESTION COSTS? I GUESS IT HAS TO, IF IT'S GONNA, UH, SO WE, THE INCENTIVES ARE OFFERED ON TECHNOLOGIES THAT BEAT THAT, THAT, THAT ARE, THAT IS CONSIDERABLY HIGHER THAN THE BASELINE STANDARDS. 
          THAT'S WHERE WE ARE LOOKING AT IT. 
          ALL THE AVOIDED COSTS ARE USUALLY AVOIDED COSTS. 
          THEY COME INTO THE BENEFIT COST ANALYSIS THAT WE PERFORM. 
          SO, AND, AND FOR EVERY MEASURE AND EVERY PROGRAM, WE PERFORM THOSE ANALYSIS AND THAT'S WHERE WE, THAT THERE ARE LOAD PROFILES. 
          WE KIND OF, YOU KNOW, TAKE A LOT OF THESE THINGS FROM TEXAS TRM AND, AND THAT'S, WE ARE ALWAYS RUNNING. 
          OKAY. 
          SO IT'S LIKE A INDUSTRY STANDARD INPUT. 
          YEP. 
          TOWARDS IN MANY CASES. 
          OKAY. 
          OKAY. 
          YEAH, I WAS JUST WONDERING HOW THAT CHANGES WHEN, 'CAUSE ERCOT IT'S A MAJOR ROLE CHANGE. 
          I GUESS THEY'RE CHANGING THE WAY THAT THE CONGESTION ON THE DEMAND RESPONSE. 
          YES. 
          SO ON THE DEMAND RESPONSE, SO ONCE, YOU KNOW, I GUESS YOU'RE GOING AT ONCE IT'S GOING TO THE WINTER. 
          YEAH, WE DON'T HAVE THAT MUCH DATA, BUT YEAH, THE HEAT PUMPS WILL BE CONTROLLABLE DEVICES IN WINTER DEMAND IN THE WINTER PERIOD WHEN AND IF WE INDEED GO TO 12 CP. 
          BUT GOOD NEWS HERE IS THAT WE ARE LOOKING FORWARD IN THE DEMAND RESPONSE ON JUNE 6TH. 
          I REMEMBER THE DAY ON JUNE 6TH, WE DID A TEST EVENT JUST TO SEE WHAT WE CAN DO IN THE WINTER. 
          AND THE TEST EVENT HAD ALMOST 1400 DEVICES THAT WE TESTED BETWEEN WATER HEATERS, UH, CONNECTED WATER HEATERS IN OUR SMART HOME REWARDS PROGRAM AND OUR HEAT PUMPS. 
          AND I THINK IT GEN IT GAVE US A GOOD INDICATION ON WINTER DEMAND RESPONSE READINESS AND HOW TO LOOK AT THOSE THINGS. 
          YEAH, OKAY. 
          BUT THE, EVEN IF IT'S NOT A SMART HEAT PUMP, IT WOULD STILL REDUCE THE, THE, YEP. 
          I FORGOT THE TERM FOR THE, THE, THE, THE 12 CP COSTS, RIGHT? YEAH. 
          BECAUSE IT'S REDUCING THE LOAD. 
          SO, YEAH. 
          OKAY. 
          THANK YOU. 
          APPRECIATE IT. 
          ANY OTHER QUESTIONS OR DISCUSSION ON HEAT PUMPS? OKAY, THIS HAS BEEN REALLY GOOD. 
          FASCINATING. 
          THANK YOU FOR SHARING ALL OF THIS GOOD INFORMATION. 
          WE LOOK, UH, FORWARD TO, TO STAYING ON TOP OF, UH, NEW DEVELOPMENTS IN THIS AREA. 
          SO APPRECIATE AND THANK YOU VERY MUCH. 
          I APPRECIATE IT. 
          OKAY. 
          UM, MOVING ON TO 
          [4. Discussion and recommendation regarding a Resource Reliability Study.]
ITEM NUMBER FOUR, WHICH IS DISCUSSION AND RECOMMENDATION REGARDING RESOURCE RELIABILITY STUDY. 
          UM, BELIEVE WE DO HAVE A RECOMMENDATION, THERE WE GO, WHICH WE'LL BRING UP ON THE SCREEN. 
          UM, IS THIS COMMISSIONER FARMER OR COMMISSIONER SILVERSTEIN? WHO'D LIKE TO GO AHEAD. 
          COMMISSIONER FARMER. 
          GO AHEAD. 
          UM, SO THIS IS THE DRAFT RESOLUTION, UH, THAT HAS BEEN EDITED SINCE, UH, LAST MONTH, UM, TO FOCUS MORE, UH, SORT OF ON FUTURE LOOKING, UM, ISSUES AND LOOK AT SORT OF THE RELIABILITY RISK AND THAT $1 BILLION COMMITMENT, UM, YOU KNOW, AS A LOOK BACK, BUT NOW ALSO LOOKING AT ESSENTIALLY LIKE THIS IS NOT A SORT OF ONE AND DONE THING. 
          AND, UM, WE WOULD LIKE TO LOVELY THAT ALL THE PEOPLE WHO COULD ANSWER QUESTIONS ABOUT THIS JUST LEFT. 
          BUT, UH, YOU'RE NOT THE ONE WHO NO, NOBODY FROM NO WOULD BE. 
          OKAY. 
          WE DID GET A, A, A WRITTEN COMMENT, UM, TO AN EMAIL. 
          UH, WE DID, YES. 
          THAT I THINK EVERYONE SHOULD HAVE RECEIVED IT. 
          IF NOT, WE CAN CERTAINLY, UM, WE CAN CIRCULATE THAT. 
          OR EVEN IT IS, IT IS IN, IT'S BEEN EMAILED TO ALL THE COMMISSIONERS, UM, JUST AS OF, I I WANNA SAY LATE YESTERDAY. 
          SO, BUT WE, WE CAN CERTAINLY BRING THAT UP AND TALK ABOUT WHAT, WHAT SOME OF THAT FEEDBACK WAS. 
          I MEAN, I THINK THE, AGAIN, SO COMMISSIONER SILVERSTEIN AND I, UM, MET WITH, UM, LISA MARTIN A COUPLE WEEKS AGO AND I THINK, UH, YOU KNOW, Y'ALL CAN READ HER RESPONSE. 
          UM, 
          [01:20:01]
BUT BASICALLY IT'S LIKE, I THINK THE HIGH LEVEL IS SAYING LIKE, AUSTIN ENERGY IS LOOKING AT THIS STUFF SORT OF CONTINUOUSLY AND CONSTANTLY AND, UH, DILIGENTLY. 
          AND A LOT OF IT IS, WE'RE NOT ABLE TO BE TRANSPARENT ABOUT IT DUE TO, UH, SORT OF MARKET ISSUES OR, UM, YOU KNOW, POLICY AROUND THAT. 
          AND I THINK MY FEELING, AND, YOU KNOW, SPEAKING FOR COMMISSIONER SILVERSTEIN IF YOU WANNA JUMP IN, IS I THINK THAT THERE'S STILL, THIS IS A LOT OF MONEY. 
          IT'S STILL LIKE, IT SEEMS LIKE THEY'RE ONLY LOOKING AT ONE OPTION, WHICH IS ONLY SUPPLY SIDE AND NOT DEMAND SIDE. 
          UM, IT SEEMS LIKE IT WOULD BEHOOVE COUNSEL TO BE, YOU KNOW, LOOKING AT THIS AS WELL OR HAVING SOME SORT OF TRANSPARENCY INTO THAT DISCUSSION. 
          AND THIS IS LIKE, AGAIN, LIKE ALSO A CONSTANTLY EVOLVING LANDSCAPE AND THE MATH DOESN'T SEEM TO BE MATTING BASED ON CURRENT SITUATION AND, UH, FUTURE OUTLOOKS. 
          SO I THINK, YOU KNOW, I THINK IT WOULD BE ONE THING IF AUSTIN ENERGY WAS A, UH, YOU KNOW, AT THE TOP OF THE CLASS NATIONALLY OR EVEN WITHIN TEXAS IN TERMS OF DEMAND RESPONSE PROGRAMS AND ALL THE THINGS THAT WE'VE BEEN PUSHING ON HERE AT COMMISSION, AND THEN PROVIDED A REPORT THAT WAS A THIRD PARTY REPORT LAYING OUT WHY IT ALSO NEEDED TO SPEND ALL THIS MONEY ON, UH, GAS PEAKERS THAT ARE CONTRARY TO OUR MANDATES AROUND DECARBONIZATION. 
          I THINK AT THAT POINT THEN I WOULD BE MORE CONVINCED THAT THAT'S THE WAY TO GO. 
          BUT NEITHER OR NONE OF THOSE THINGS HAVE HAPPENED. 
          AND SO IT FEELS LIKE WE NEED TO ASK COUNSEL TO, UM, DO THEIR OWN HOMEWORK. 
          THANK YOU. 
          I, THE, THE PURPOSE OF THIS AND THE VALUE OF, OF THIS RESOLUTION IN MY MIND IS IT IS NOT INTENDED TO BE AN ATTACK ON THE GAS PLANT. 
          THAT DECISION HAS BEEN MADE, THAT SHIP HAS SAILED. 
          UM, AND I APPRECIATE THAT AUSTIN ENERGY'S CURRENT RESOURCE PLAN ALSO INCLUDES THE INITIATIVES OF GETTING ADDITIONAL WIND AND ADDITIONAL BATTERY RESOURCES ON BOARD AS, AS WE HAVE JUST SPENT SIGNIFICANT AMOUNT OF TIME DISCUSSING. 
          AND ALL OF THOSE THINGS ARE GOOD. 
          AND I, UM, WILL ACCEPT DEPUTY DIRECTOR, DEPUTY GENERAL MANAGER MARTIN'S ASSERTION THAT THE DECISION AND RECOMMENDATION THAT WENT TO THE COUNCIL FOR THE GAS PLANT AND THE REST OF THE PLAN WAS BASED ON TWO 2026 DATA AND NUMBERS AND COSTS RATHER THAN 2024. 
          BUT THE FACT THAT SHE HAD TO TELL US THAT ITSELF INDICATES THE LACK OF TRANSPARENCY AROUND THE RESOURCE PLAN AND THE DECISION AND PROPOSAL THAT WENT TO THE COUNCIL. 
          AND IT IS NOT CLEAR TO ME, AGAIN, BECAUSE OF THE LACK OF TRANSPARENCY IN THE ANALYSIS BEHIND DAWSON ENERGY'S PLAN OR THE COUNCIL'S GAS PLANT DECISION, THAT WHAT DEGREE OF IT IS CLEAR THEY'VE DONE A SIGNIFICANT AMOUNT OF COST ANALYSIS. 
          WHAT'S NOT CLEAR IS THE DEGREE TO WHICH THEY HAVE DONE RISK ANALYSIS WITH RESPECT TO THE IMPACTS OF RAPIDLY CHANGING COSTS AND RAPIDLY CHANGING SUPPLY CHAIN CHALLENGES. 
          AND I SUSPECT THAT THE COUNCIL WAS NOT ADEQUATELY WARNED, AGAIN, LACKING ANY TRANSPARENCY IN WHAT COUNCIL WAS TOLD. 
          I SUSPECT THAT THERE IS A CERTAIN DEGREE OF ASSERTION ABOUT WE'RE GETTING A GAS PLANT, EVERYTHING'S GONNA BE FINE. 
          AND, AND THE SHIP HAS SAILED WITH RESPECT TO GETTING A GAS PLANT. 
          THIS IS NOT ABOUT TRYING TO BLOCK OR ALTER THE GAS PLANT DECISION. 
          WHAT IT IS TRYING TO DO IS SAY THERE ARE A LOT OF RISKS ASSOCIATED WITH EVEN A PORTFOLIO THAT INCLUDES A GAS PLANT AND MORE BATTERIES AND WIND AND SOLAR. 
          AND THERE IS NO GUARANTEE THAT THE GAS PLANT'S GONNA SHOW UP ON TIME. 
          AND THERE IS NO GUARANTEE THAT GAS COSTS ARE GONNA GO DOWN, NOTWITHSTANDING ASSERTIONS FROM THE SECRETARY OF ENERGY AND OTHERS THAT THE COST OF GAS IS GOING DOWN TOMORROW, UM, OR AS SOON AS THE WORD  IS OVER. 
          [01:25:01]
BUT SO THE PROBLEM IS, AS A MATTER OF AFFORDABILITY AND AS A MATTER OF RISK MANAGEMENT, AND AS A MATTER OF TRANSPARENCY FOR THE CITIZENS OF AUSTIN AND THE CITY COUNCIL WHO WILL ULTIMATELY GET BLAMED ALONG WITH AUSTIN ENERGY, IF THE GAS PLANT GOES TOO LONG OR COSTS TOO MUCH, UM, THIS IS ASKING THAT THE CITY COUNCIL AUTHORIZE CON THE CONDUCT OF AN INDEPENDENT ANALYSIS THAT IS TARGETED AT RISK MANAGEMENT. 
          AND THAT WITH RESPECT TO COSTS AND TIMING AND HOW DO WE DEAL WITH THE DEGREE OF UNCERTAINTY THAT FACES US AROUND, UM, THESE 575 RISK HOURS. 
          'CAUSE THAT'S FOR ONE YEAR. 
          WE KNOW IT'S GONNA GO UP AND UP AND UP AT THE SAME TIME. 
          AND THERE IS A BROADENING CONE OF UNCERTAINTY AND A LIKELY HIGHLY INCREASING NUMBER OF UNCERTAIN OF, OF RISK HOURS FOR EVERY YEAR AFTER 2031. 
          AND IT IS NOT AT ALL CLEAR TO ME WHAT AUSTIN ENERGY'S PLAN IS TO DEAL WITH THAT, EVEN IF THE GAS PLANT'S ON TIME AND ON BUDGET. 
          IN MY EXPERIENCE IN THIS INDUSTRY, LOOKING AT A BUNCH OF OTHER RESOURCE PLANS, EVERY COMPANY AND REGION THAT COMMITS TO AGGRESSIVE ENERGY EFFICIENCY AND DEMAND RESPONSE AS A BASIS, AS LIKE THE FOUNDATIONAL RESOURCE ON TOP OF WHICH THEY PILE OTHER SUPPLY RESOURCES, THE ENERGY EFFICIENCY AND THE DEMAND RESPONSE WELL PURSUED AND WELL ACHIEVED, REDUCE THE RISK AND REDUCE THE COST, AND IMPROVE THE EQUITY AND ALSO REDUCE THE, UM, EMISSIONS AND CLIMATE RISK CREATED BY THE PLAN. 
          THIS IS, UH, DESPITE THE LETTER FROM DEPUTY GENERAL MANAGER MARTIN, WE ARE NOT ASKING FOR DEVELOPMENT. 
          THIS DOES NOT PROPOSE DEVELOPMENT OF A RESOURCE PLAN THAT HAS ONLY CARBON FREE ALTERNATIVES AND NO GAS PLANT. 
          THIS IS NOT ASKING FOR, UM, NO GAS PLANT AND IT IS NOT ASKING FOR ONLY BATTERIES. 
          WE ARE ASKING FOR SOMEONE TO TAKE A FRESH LOOK AT HOW DO WE CONSTRUCT PORTFOLIO ALTERNATIVES THAT ARE HEAVY ON DEMAND SIDE AND NOT JUST SUPPLY SIDE SO THAT WE CREATE MORE OPERATIONAL SLACK AND SECURITY AND AFFORDABILITY FOR THE CITY, FOR OUR CITIZENS, FOR OUR CLIMATE AND EQUITY GOALS AND FOR OUR CUSTOMER PROTECTION, AFFORDABILITY AND RELIABILITY GOALS. 
          AND THAT IS WHAT THIS IS ABOUT. 
          THE AUSTIN ENERGY PLAN IS MOSTLY ABOUT SUPPLY SIDE RESOURCES AND EVERYTHING THAT THEY'VE TOLD US ABOUT IS ABOUT SUPPLY SIDE RESOURCES. 
          AND THIS IS ASKING FOR A MUCH BETTER LOOK AT, AT HOW DO WE BUILD PORTFOLIO OPTIONS THAT INCLUDE MORE DEMAND SIDE MEASURES AND THAT ARE ABOUT RISK REDUCTION AS WELL AS RELIABILITY. 
          SO THE MARTIN LETTER IS, UM, INTERESTING BUT NOT DISPOSITIVE IN TERMS OF MAKING OUR CONCERNS GO AWAY. 
          THANK YOU. 
          OKAY. 
          THANK YOU BOTH FOR THAT. 
          UH, INTRO. 
          UH, GO AHEAD, VICE CHAIR. 
          I APOLOGIZE. 
          GO AHEAD. 
          VICE CHAIR ROBBINS FIRST I WOULD LIKE TO MAKE A MOTION TO ADOPT THIS RESOLUTION. 
          UM, IS THERE A SECOND? WHO'S SECONDING? OKAY. 
          COMMISSIONER FARMER, THERE'S A MOTION AND A AND A SECOND TO ADOPT. 
          THAT MEANS WE CAN OPEN DISCUSSION SECOND. 
          SO THANK YOU FOR THAT. 
          UH, SECOND, I WOULD LIKE TO OFFER A ONE WORD FRIENDLY AMENDMENT. 
          UM, AND THEN I WOULD LIKE TO OFFER A COUPLE COMMENTS. 
          I WILL, UH, I WILL LET THE CHAIR DECIDE HOW SHE WANTS TO FEEL THOSE THINGS. 
          WHY DON'T WE DO COMMENTS AND QUESTIONS, UH, AND DISCUSSION FIRST, AND THEN WE CAN VOTE ON AMENDMENTS AND THEN WE CAN TAKE ON THE MAIN MOTION ONCE THAT'S DONE. 
          OKAY. 
          WELL, REGARDING, UH, I THINK TWO OR THREE TIMES, COMMISSIONER SILVERSTEIN SAID THAT THE SHIP HAS SAILED. 
          SHE DIDN'T BOTHER TO EXTEND THE ANALOGY TO WHEN IT SINKS 
          [01:30:01]
 . 
          I AM, UH, I'VE, I'VE BEEN ON RECORD AT THIS COMMISSION MEETING, UH, IN AN EDITORIAL IN THE STATESMEN AND OTHER PLACES AT CITY COUNCIL SAYING THAT, UH, THIS IS, UH, THIS IS THE, THIS IS GOING TO BE SO EXPENSIVE THAT A HAMSTER ON A TREADMILL MIGHT PRODUCE MORE COST EFFECTIVE POWER. 
          AND IN THAT REGIME, IN THAT HIGHER COST REGIME, A LOT OF THINGS THAT MAY NOT HAVE BEEN COST EFFECTIVE BEFORE COULD BE COST EFFECTIVE. 
          NOW, UH, SO, UH, I WANT WANT THAT TO BE CONSIDERED. 
          NOW, I'M NOT GONNA GET INTO THIS IN ANY GREAT DETAIL BECAUSE WE WOULD BE HERE TILL TWO IN THE MORNING, BUT I WILL JUST COMMENT VERY, VERY BRIEFLY THAT THERE WAS A TIME WHEN PEOPLE KEEP TALKING ABOUT, UH, COM WHOLESALE COMPETITIVENESS AND TRANS AND ALL THAT. 
          WE USED TO VOTE ON OUR POWER PLANTS, AND IT IS STILL IN THE CITY CHARTER. 
          UH, ANYBODY WHO'S INTERESTED LISTENING ONLINE OR IN OUR ROOM, JUST LOOK IT UP ON THE CITY CHARTER. 
          IT SAYS RIGHT THERE THAT CITIZENS MUST, UH, APPROVE ALL REVENUE BONDS, AND THAT WOULD BE FOR ELECTRICITY, WATER WASTE, WATER AND DRAINAGE. 
          UH, AND I CAN REMEMBER VOTING ON, UH, CONSIDERABLE IN A CONSIDERABLE NUMBER OF ELECTIONS. 
          SO, NO, I DO NOT BELIEVE I PAST A POINT. 
          I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT THE WHOLESALE COMPETITIVENESS ARGUMENT IS REAL, CERTAINLY IN REAL TIME. 
          YEAH, I'LL, I'LL SPOT THEM THAT ARGUMENT. 
          BUT AS A GENERAL RULE, NO. 
          UH, AND WITH THAT, UH, I'LL YIELD THE FLOOR. 
          I DO HAVE A FRIENDLY AMENDMENT. 
          THANK YOU. 
          ARE THERE, IS THERE OTHER DISCUSSION, UM, PARTICULARLY ONLINE FOR FOLKS NOT IN THE ROOM. 
          ANYONE HAVE COMMENTS? I DO SEE COMMISSIONER KENNER'S HAND. 
          GO AHEAD, PLEASE. 
          THANKS VERY MUCH. 
          UM, I HAVE A VERY UNSERIOUS POINT TO MAKE FIRST AND THEN A, A MORE SERIOUS ONE. 
          UM, LAST WEEK AFTER THE, OR LAST MONTH AFTER THE MEETING, I RAN THE NUMBERS ON, UH, PAUL'S HAMSTER ANALOGY. 
          AND, UM, IT TURNS OUT IT'S SORT OF LIKE A HUNDRED TIMES WORSE THAN GAS. 
          I, I KNOW THAT'S NOT THE POINT, BUT I JUST WANTED TO SORT OF PUT IT IN THE RECORD. 
          UM, ANYWAY, UH, YOU KNOW, WE JUST WELL, THAT'S A GOOD POINT. 
          UM, NO, BUT THEN MY SERIOUS POINT IS THAT, UM, THIS IS ALL REALLY GOOD AND I, I SORT OF REALLY BROADLY SUPPORT THE SPIRIT OF THESE KIND OF, UM, ENDEAVORS, WHICH SEEM TO ME TO LINE UP WITH A REALLY URGENT, UH, NECESSITY TO TAKE THESE THINGS SERIOUSLY. 
          AND I GET THE FEELING IN OTHER, OTHER WAYS IN WHICH WE SORT OF BROADLY AS A SOCIETY THINK ABOUT THE FUTURE AND, UH, CONSIDER OUR, UH, ENVIRONMENT AND ALL THE REST OF IT. 
          WE'RE NOT REALLY FOCUSED IN THE WAY THAT WE SHOULD BE. 
          AND THIS IS AN EXCELLENT EXAMPLE OF, OF REALLY GOOD FOCUS. 
          AND WHATEVER IT GENERATES, I THINK WILL BE POSITIVE. 
          UM, SO I'M, I'M HAPPY TO BACK IT. 
          THANK YOU. 
          UM, OTHER DISCUSSION? QUESTIONS? COMMENTS? UH, COMMISSIONER SILVERSTEIN, YOU HAVE ANOTHER COMMENT. 
          THANK YOU. 
          I I JUST WANNA RESPOND TO ONE OF, UM, VICE CHAIR ROBINS POINTS. 
          AND THAT WAS WITH RESPECT TO, UM, OPPOSING THE GAS PLANT. 
          I AM GOING TO PUT ASIDE THE QUESTION OF WHETHER I BELIEVE THE GAS PLANT IS NECESSARY AND GO TO RATHER THE POINT THAT, UM, THE FOLKS WHO APPOINTED US ON THE CITY COUNCIL VOTED TO APPROVE THAT GAS PLANT BASED ON INFORMATION THAT I DO NOT POSSESS. 
          SO I'M NOT IN A POSITION TO SECOND GUESS IT, BUT WE WENT TO SOME PAINS TO DRAFT THIS SPECIFIC AGENDA. 
          I MEAN, SPECIFIC RESOLUTION TO BE SQUARELY WITHIN AN ADVANCE, THE RESPONSIBILITIES OF THE RESOURCE MANAGEMENT COMMISSION, WHICH ARE ALTERNATE ENERGY SOURCES AND DEMAND SIDE RESOURCES. 
          AND TO NOT PUT ANYTHING IN HERE THAT WOULD DIS OR SECOND GUESS THE UTILITIES RECOMMENDATION OF THE GAS PLANT OR THE COUNCIL'S DECISION TO APPROVE IT. 
          WE DON'T GAIN ANYTHING BY P*****G OFF THE PEOPLE WHO SHOWN US HERE. 
          AND, AND IT IS OUR JOB, 
          [01:35:01]
I THINK, TO GIVE THEM MORE OPTIONS AND MORE INFORMATION. 
          AND THAT IS THE GOAL OF THIS PROPOSED ANALYSIS. 
          THANK YOU. 
          THANK YOU. 
          WELL SAID. 
          UH, GO AHEAD, VICE CHAIR. 
          MAY I JUST REMIND YOU THAT WE DON'T ACTUALLY KNOW WHICH COUNCIL MEMBERS DID OR DID NOT VOTE FOR THIS, SO WE DON'T KNOW IF WE ARE ACTUALLY, UH, UH, BUT, BUT WE NEED ALL OF THEM TO VOTE ENOUGH OF THEM TO VOTE FOR THIS RESOLUTION. 
          ALL RIGHT. 
          I I'M JUST SAYING THAT'S ALL ALL DON'T CARE WHO VOTED HOW. 
          UM, I'LL JUST SAY I, I AM IN, IN BROAD GENERAL TERMS, SUPPORTIVE OF THE SPIRIT OF THIS RECOMMENDATION. 
          UM, AND I, I, YOU KNOW, AS FAR AS HAVING ALL OF THE MOST UPTODATE INFORMATION, THE MOST TIMELY DATA, UM, MAKING THE BEST DECISIONS ON A, YOU KNOW, THAT YOU HAVE, THAT YOU CAN WITH THE DATA THAT YOU HAVE AT THE TIME, AND CONTINUOUSLY UPDATING THOSE AND, AND, AND ALLOWING OURSELVES FLEXIBILITY, UM, WHEN THINGS DO CHANGE, I'M, I'M ALL FOR THAT. 
          I THINK WHAT I HAVE HEARD ABOUT THIS PARTICULAR DECISION AS, AS COMMISSIONER SILVERSTEIN PUT IT, IT'S, IT'S, UM, THE DECISION'S BEEN TAKEN THERE. 
          THE AUSTIN ENERGY IS IN THE QUEUE FOR PEAKERS FOR 400 MEGAWATTS. 
          IT'S, THERE HAVE BEEN COMMITMENTS THAT HAVE BEEN MADE AND THE COUNCIL HAS MADE, UH, YOU KNOW, APPROVE THOSE. 
          UM, AND ACCORDING TO DE UH, DEPUTY GENERAL MANAGER, THESE, UH, THE DATA IS AS CURRENT AS, AS THEY HAVE ACCESS TO. 
          AND, AND THESE DECISIONS WERE MADE IN 2026, OR THE, THE DATA THAT THE DECISIONS WERE BASED ON WAS UP TO DATE. 
          UM, AND I THINK ONE OF THE OTHER PIECES, 'CAUSE I DID WATCH THE TESTIMONY GIVEN AT THE ELECTRIC UTILITY OVERSIGHT COMMITTEE AND THE CITY COUNCIL MEETING WHEN, UH, THIS GAS PEAKER PLANT DECISION WAS, WAS BEING, UM, PUT FORTH. 
          AND THERE WAS A LOT OF TALK ABOUT DEMAND RESPONSE, AND THERE WAS A LOT OF TALK ABOUT ENERGY EFFICIENCY AND SORT OF THIS ALL IN, UM, ALL OF THE ABOVE. 
          UM, IN THAT, AND TO ME, WHAT I TOOK AWAY FROM IT WAS, IT WAS PRESENTED LIKE, UM, WE NEED ALL OF THESE SOLUTIONS. 
          IT'S NOT A DECISION BETWEEN BATTERIES OR PEAKERS OR BETWEEN, UH, YOU KNOW, DEMAND RESPONSE AND, AND GAS PEAKERS. 
          IT WAS, THERE WAS FINANCIAL RISK. 
          YOU KNOW, THERE'S CERTAINLY THE, THE RELIABILITY RISK HOURS, THE 575 RELIABILITY RISK HOURS ANNUALLY, BUT THERE'S ALSO $500 MILLION OF FINANCIAL RISK, UM, FOR EXTREME WEATHER. 
          AND SO THOSE WERE THE, ALL OF THE THINGS THAT WERE, YOU KNOW, BEING ASSESSED. 
          AND FOR BETTER, FOR WORSE, UH, THE LEADERSHIP AT THE UTILITY CONVINCED ENOUGH OF THE, THE CITY COUNCIL MEMBERS THAT THAT WAS THE, THE RIGHT THING TO DO. 
          AND THAT THEY HAD THE RIGHT, YOU KNOW, THE DATA TO SHOW. 
          AND NONE OF US KNOW WHAT WAS SAID IN THE, IN THE CLOSED DOOR ROOM WHERE, UH, THAT VOTE TOOK PLACE. 
          UM, BUT THEY, THEY DO ALSO HAVE THE, THE CONSULTANT, THE ASCEND ANALYTICS, I THINK IS WHO THEY HIRED TO DO A LOT OF THESE ANALYSES. 
          SO I THINK THAT IS A, UM, A TECHNICAL CONSULTANT WITHOUT TIES TO, UH, FINANCIAL INTEREST IN ANY PARTICULAR ENERGY GENERATION. 
          SO ONE QUESTION I HAVE IS, IS, YOU KNOW, IS THAT A, UM, SOME OF THIS SEEMS LIKE IT'S BEEN DONE, AND SO I JUST, I WANNA FEEL LIKE THIS IS SOMETHING THAT IS, WE'RE ASKING FOR SOMETHING NEW THAT HAS NOT BEEN DONE, THAT HAS NOT BEEN CONSIDERED, AND A LOT OF IT FEELS LIKE IT HAS BEEN DONE AND CONSIDERED. 
          SO MAYBE IF THERE'S MORE INFORMATION THERE, THERE IS, BECAUSE WE HAVE NOT SEEN ANY OF ASCENDS WORK, THERE IS NO WAY TO TELL WHETHER THIS HAS BEEN DONE. 
          AND, AND A CONSULTANT ANSWERS THE QUESTIONS YOU ASK THEM TO ANSWER. 
          SO IF THEY WERE ASKED TO TELL US WHAT IS THE PORTFOLIO THAT WILL GET THIS JOB DONE, AT LEAST COST AND HANDLE THE RELIABILITY HOURS, THAT IS A DIFFERENT QUESTION THAN 
          [01:40:01]
WHAT IS THE SUITE OF PORT? WHAT ARE THE PORTFOLIOS OF DIFFERENT RESOURCES AND ASSETS, INCLUDING DEMAND SIDE AND SUPPLY SIDE, THAT WILL GIVE US THE MOST RISK REDUCTION, COST REDUCTION PORTFOLIO, BLAH, BLAH, BLAH. 
          AND MY UNDERSTANDING WAS THAT THEY LOOKED AT 18 OR 19 DIFFERENT PORTFOLIOS IN THE MODELING FOR THAT. 
          AND SO THE, THE QUESTION WAS MORE LIKE THE SECOND ONE THAT YOU DESCRIBED, WELL, I DON'T KNOW YOU, THAT'S WHAT WE WERE TOLD. 
          THE, THE, THE, THE PART OF THE QUES, IT IS NOT ENOUGH TO JUST LOOK AT A PORTFOLIO. 
          PART OF THE CHALLENGE IS WHY DID YOU DESIGN THE PORTFOLIO AND WHAT ARE THE, THERE'S A BUG FLYING AROUND ME IN CASE YOU THINK I'M JUST GETTING OFF. 
          SEE IF YOU CAN CLAP IT. 
          SO, SO IF YOU DESIGN, YOU HAVE TO A, SPECIFY WHAT YOUR EVALUATION CRITERIA ARE AND WHETHER YOU HAVE MULTIPLE OR LIMITED EVALUATION CRITERIA. 
          YOU ALSO HAVE TO DECIDE WHETHER YOU'RE MINIMIZING OR MAX MAXIMIZING AGAINST ONE OR TWO, OR IF YOU'RE LOOKING FOR THE LEAST REGRET PORTFOLIO ACROSS A NUMBER OF DIFFERENT ALTERNATIVES. 
          SO HOW DO I BALANCE COST AND RELIABILITY AND RESILIENCE OVER THIS LONG-TERM PERIOD? AND WE DO NOT KNOW. 
          SO, SO YOU DON'T GET BROWNIE POINTS FOR LOOKING AT 18 OR 19 PORTFOLIOS ALONE. 
          IT'S WHAT DO YOU DO WITH THEM? WHY DID YOU BUILD THEM AND, AND HOW DO YOU WANT THEM TO PERFORM RELATIVE TO EACH OTHER? WHAT ARE YOUR GOALS? AND WE DON'T KNOW THAT SET OF ANSWERS. 
          SO IT, SO JUST DOING PORTFOLIO, LOOKING AT LOTS OF PORTFOLIOS CHECKS ONE, BUT NOT ALL THE BOXES. 
          SO IT MIGHT HAVE BEEN DONE, IT'S JUST THAT WE DON'T KNOW IT BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T SHOW US WHAT THEY'VE DONE. 
          IS THAT A POSSIBILITY? THAT'S A POSSIBILITY. 
          OKAY. 
          AND THE, THE WORST CASE IS THAT WE ADOPT THIS AND IT GOES TO THE COUNCIL AND THEY SAY, HEY, AUSTIN ENERGY, TELL US, DID YOU DO THIS IN THE ANALYSIS THAT ASCEND ENERGY PERFORMED FOR YOU? MAKE US FEEL THAT THIS ISN'T NECESSARY. 
          SO WE DON'T ACTUALLY HAVE TO ANSWER THAT QUESTION IN ORDER TO PASS THIS, THIS IS SOMETHING THAT THE FOLKS AT THE CITY COUNCIL MM-HMM . 
          CAN DECIDE NEEDS TO BE DONE, AND THEY HAVE MORE INFORMATION AND MORE ABILITY TO COMMAND ANSWERS THAN WE DO. 
          MM-HMM . 
          MM-HMM . 
          YEAH. 
          THAT'S, THAT'S, THAT'S RIGHT. 
          AND I, I DO SEE YOU COMMISSIONER SCHWARTZ. 
          UM, AND I WILL GO TO YOU JUST A SECOND. 
          I JUST, THE ONLY OTHER THING, UM, AND THIS IS JUST FOR TRANSPARENCY OF WHAT'S GOING THROUGH MY HEAD, AND IT'S MOSTLY THINKING OUT LOUD HERE AS I WANT TO DO, UM, IS, UH, THIS IS PROBABLY HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS WORTH OF, UM, RATE PAYER DOLLARS TO, TO DO SOMETHING LIKE THIS. 
          AND I JUST ALWAYS WANNA KEEP THAT IN MIND VERSUS, YOU KNOW, COST AND BENEFIT. 
          SO WE ARE, WHAT I THINK THIS IS THE, THE, THE SORT OF HIGH LEVEL ANALYSIS THAT I'M THINKING OF IS PROBABLY A QUARTER OF A MILLION MAX. 
          AND THE QUESTION IS, TO MY MIND, THIS IS A POTENTIAL TRADE OFF BETWEEN DO WE SPEND A QUARTER OF A MILLION OF TAXPAYER DOLLARS NOW TO CLARIFY AFFORDABILITY, EQUITY AND, AND OTHER ISSUES LONG-TERM COST ISSUES? OR DO WE RUN THE RISK OF BY NOT DOING SO POTENTIALLY INCURRING, WALKING BLINDLY AND STEADILY INTO SPENDING MANY MILLIONS MORE OF RATE PAYER DOLLARS BECAUSE WE DIDN'T DO ENOUGH DUE DILIGENCE ABOUT ALL ALTERNATIVES AND ENOUGH EARLY INVESTMENT IN MEASURES THAT COULD CREATE BUFFERS, LIKE MORE ENERGY EFFICIENCY AND DEMAND RESPONSE. 
          NOW IT'S NOT MILLIONS, IT'S BILLIONS. 
          OKAY. 
          PROBABLY IS. 
          SO, SO I, I VIEW THIS AS A TAXPAYER INSURANCE AGAINST POTENTIAL LONG-TERM RATE PAYER. 
          OKAY. 
          I'M COMMISSIONER SCHWARTZ. 
          WELL, I GUESS THE FIRST THING I SHOULD SAY IS I WISH LISA MARTIN OR SOMEONE FROM THEIR TEAM WAS HERE. 
          'CAUSE THEY WOULD KNOW THE ANSWER BETTER THAN ME, BUT MY UNDERSTANDING FROM THE EUC MEETING IN MAY AND THE AE USC MEETING AROUND THAT TIME WAS THAT THEY, THEY WERE CLEAR THAT THEY DIDN'T DO, THEY DID A LOT OF THEIR OWN INTERNAL MODELING 
          [01:45:01]
AUSTIN ENERGY, BUT THEY DIDN'T REENGAGE. 
          I DON'T WANNA SAY SOMETHING THAT'S GONNA BE LIKE FACTUALLY NOT EXACTLY CORRECT, BUT MY UNDERSTANDING WAS THEY WERE CLEAR THAT THEY DID NOT REENGAGE A SEND OR THE OTHER THIRD PARTY. 
          I THINK THERE WAS ANOTHER THIRD PARTY, UH, MODELING FIRM THAT THEY USED DURING THE GEN PLAN TWO YEARS AGO THAT THEY DIDN'T DO THAT LEVEL OF ANALYSIS AGAIN, THAT THEY HAD DONE, THEY HAD SOMETHING THAT THEY CALLED U PLAN, THAT THAT WAS THEIR OWN, I THINK THAT CAME UP WITH THE 19 SCENARIOS. 
          THERE WAS A SEPARATE MODELING THAT WAS DONE BY ASCEND, THAT WAS LIKE STOCHASTIC MODELING, BASICALLY THIRD PARTY ANALYSIS THAT YOU USE, I GUESS MORE SOPHISTICATED SIMULATION WITH THE SIMILAR INPUTS THAT AUSTIN ENERGY HAD. 
          AND THEN THEY RAN THOSE. 
          AND THAT KIND OF HELPED. 
          THAT WAS ALL PART OF THE GEN PLAN CONVERSATION, OBVIOUSLY, THAT THAT WAS LIKE A REALLY RICH, YOU KNOW, UH, INFORMATION RICH, TRANSPARENT PROCESS. 
          THEN, UM, I GUESS I'M SORT OF MOVING ON FROM THAT POINT THAT WE DIDN'T GET EARLIER THIS YEAR. 
          AND I GUESS THE, UM, SOME, I GUESS THE SORT OF REASON FOR THAT WAS 'CAUSE THAT HAD ALREADY HAPPENED DURING THE GEN PLAN. 
          IT'S JUST THAT THE ERCOT, YOU KNOW, THE GRID HAS CHANGED SO MUCH IN THE LAST TWO YEARS, OR TWO OR THREE YEARS SINCE IT WAS DONE THAT IT SEEMED TO ME THAT WAS LIKE ONE OF THE BIG REASONS WHY ICE H HAVE BEEN SEEING THIS AS REALLY IMPORTANT. 
          REENGAGING SOME SORT OF THIRD PARTY, UH, MODELING OR CER THIRD PARTY ANALYSIS OF WHAT THE UTILITY NEEDS AND WHETHER DEMAND RESPONSE IS ABLE TO MEET OR ANY OF THESE, UM, TOOLS THAT RMC IS SUPPOSED TO LOOK AT IS ABLE TO MEET SOME OF THE LOAD IS 'CAUSE THAT, THAT REALLY HASN'T BEEN DONE, AT LEAST IN A THIRD PARTY SENSE TO MY KNOWLEDGE SINCE, UH, TWO AND A HALF YEARS AGO. 
          AND THE OTHER THING I WAS GONNA SAY WAS, OH, JUST TO, UM, I THINK IT'S, UH, AS MUCH AS IT'S SORT OF, I KEEP RESISTING THE URGE TO THINK ABOUT THE PEAKER PLANT AND THIS, THAT'S WHAT A LOT OF THIS WAS KIND OF BASED ON AND BROUGHT THIS UP, BUT THERE ARE, I THINK I PUT, I THINK I WROTE TO SOME OF YOU, THERE ARE A LOT OF FUTURE DECISIONS WITH LIKE FOSSIL, YOU KNOW, UH, UH, FOSSIL FUEL GENERATION THAT THE UTILITY WILL HAVE TO MAKE IN TERMS OF RETIRING. 
          ITS OTHER PEAKERS AFTER THESE PEAKERS ARE PUT IN PLACE, ASSUMING THESE PEAKERS ARE PUT IN PLACE, RETIRING THE EXISTING OLDER PEAKERS AND RETIRING THE, IF THAT EVER HAPPENS, THE COAL UNITS, UH, AT FAYETTE. 
          SO THIS SORT OF ANALYSIS WHERE WE UTILITY ORDERS, YOU KNOW, REQUEST A STUDY OR I GUESS IT'S THROUGH THE FINANCE OFFICE, REQUEST A STUDY TO LOOK AT WHAT WE CAN DO ON THE DEMAND SIDE, SEEMS REALLY HELPFUL TO ME. 
          EVEN IF WE LOOK AT, EVEN IF WE COMPLETELY IGNORE, I GUESS THE, THE PEAKER, UH, VOTE, WHICH WAS AUTHORIZED, THE BIG ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM IS JUST THAT IT COSTS A BILLION DOLLARS AND OBVIOUSLY THERE'S A LIMITED AMOUNT OF CAPITAL THAT THE UTILITY CAN PUT TOWARDS PROGRAMS AND THAT THOSE DECISIONS DO HAVE TO BE MADE ONE WITH ALTERNATIVE TO THE OTHER. 
          BUT I THINK, YEAH. 
          AND THAT NATURAL GAS IS A WEATHER DEPENDENT RESOURCE. 
          THANK YOU. 
          SORRY FOR THE RANT. 
          NO, THAT'S GOOD. 
          GOOD DISCUSSION. 
          GO AHEAD. 
          UH, COMMISSIONER LUKI TWO WORDS, UM, GEOTHERMAL, IS THERE ANY WAY TO TIE THAT IN? I MEAN, THAT'S AS NEW AS IT GETS. 
          WELL, THEY HAVE THAT, THAT SMALLER EXPERIMENTAL, I KNOW THEY'RE DOING THE, THEY'RE DOING A TEST. 
          WELL, UH, I, I AGREE AND IT'S GONNA TAKE YEARS TO KIND OF FIGURE OUT HOW TO USE IT. 
          BUT YOU KNOW, THEY GOT GEOTHERMAL AROUND THE WORLD THAT'S BEEN USED FOR A LONG TIME. 
          SEEMS LIKE IT'S PLIABLE IN TEXAS. 
          IT'S, IF THE COUNCIL WERE TO APPROVE SOMETHING ALONG THE LINES OF THIS RESOLUTION, GEOTHERMAL COULD CERTAINLY BE WRITTEN INTO THE SCOPE OF, OF RESOURCES TO BE EXAMINED. 
          ARE YOU PROPOSING AN AMENDMENT? UH, YES. 
          , . 
          UM, BEFORE WE DO, I GUESS WE CAN GO AHEAD AND, AND, AND DO THAT MOVE TO, UM, ANY AMENDMENT PROPOSALS. 
          WELL, UH, LET, LET MARTIN, LET LET COMMISSIONER LUKI GO FIRST. 
          GO AHEAD. 
          I THINK HE SAID TWO WORDS. 
          GEOTHERMAL. 
          I THINK THAT'S IT. 
          GEOTHERMAL, I MEAN, WE, WE, IT SEEMS LIKE TO ME, YOU KNOW, THERE'S, THERE'S FOUR LEGS OF, OF OUR ALTERNATIVE ENERGY, SOLAR, WIND. 
          UH, THERE'S THE, THE, THE TECHNOLOGY OF USING THE OCEAN, I GUESS IS, IS ONE. 
          BUT GEOTHERMAL SEEMS LIKE THE, THE REAL ROCK SOLID VERSION OF, OF A, OF A BACKGROUND, UH, NEVER ENDING, ALWAYS THEIR SOURCE OF, OF, UH, ALTERNATIVE POWER. 
          THERE, THERE IS A PARAGRAPH, UH, THE FIRST BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED CLAUSE THAT LISTS, UM, THIS WOULD BE THE SECOND 
          [01:50:01]
YES. 
          THE, THE BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED IN THE MIDDLE OF PAGE THREE. 
          YES. 
          PAGE THREE. 
          WE COULD ADD ITEM SEVEN OR, OR REPLACE, CREATE A NEW ITEM SIX THAT INCLUDES ADDITIONAL RENEWABLE TECHNOLOGIES, AND THAT INCLUDES ALL RENEWABLE TECHNOLOGIES. 
          RIGHT. 
          OKAY. 
          IF THAT'S A FRIENDLY AMENDMENT, IT WORKS FOR ME. 
          UH, YEAH. 
          CAN, UH, ARE YOU GOING TO SUGGEST WORDING? I NEED TO GET THE PROPER WORDING FOR THIS? NO, NO. 
          GO, GO AHEAD. 
          YES. 
          OKAY. 
          THE IN, IN THE MIDDLE, THE FIRST BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED CLAUSE IN THE MIDDLE OF PAGE THREE, WE WOULD ADD A ITEM SIX THAT SAYS ADDITIONAL RENEWABLE TECHNOLOGIES. 
          AND THEN CHANGE THE CURRENT ITEM SIX, THE PREVIOUS ITEM SIX TO ITEM SEVEN. 
          AND COMMISSIONER LUKI, ARE YOU SATISFIED THAT THAT ENCOMPASSES GEOTHERMAL, OR WOULD, OR DID YOU WE CAN WRITE, WANT IT TO BE SPELLED OUT. 
          I WOULD LIKE IT TO BE SPELLED OUT. 
          OKAY. 
          ADDITIONAL RENEWABLE TECHNOLOGIES, INCLUDING GEOTHERMAL. 
          THANK YOU. 
          THANK YOU. 
          OKAY. 
          DID YOU GET THAT MS. GOODWIN? NO, I, I'LL, UH, I'LL, I'LL BRING IT OVER TO YOU. 
          SO, UM, WHY DON'T WE GET COMMISSIONER ROBINSON, THEN I'LL WALK 'EM BOTH OVER TO MS. GOODWIN. 
          OKAY. 
          BEFORE WE DO THAT, LET'S, UM, LET'S SEE IF WE CAN TAKE A VOTE. 
          FIRST. 
          UH, WOULD YOU LIKE TO MAKE A MOTION TO, UH, AMEND? CAN I MAKE A, AN, A MOTION TO AMEND OKAY. 
          TO INCLUDE GEOTHERMAL? YES. 
          AND A SECOND. 
          I WILL SECOND IT. 
          OKAY. 
          UM, AND SO I THINK WHAT I HEARD IS THAT IT'S BEEN MOVED AND SECONDED THAT IN THE FIRST BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED CLAUSE, UM, THAT A NEW NUMBER SIX BE CREATED THAT SAYS ADDITIONAL RENEWABLE TECHNOLOGIES, INCLUDING GEOTHERMAL, AND THAT THE LAST 0.6 BECOMES SEVEN, CORRECT. 
          FOR VIRTUAL POWER PLANTS AGGRAVATING, BLAH, BLAH. 
          OKAY. 
          SO THANK YOU ALL IN FAVOR OF THAT AMENDMENT. 
          AND IF YOU'RE LINE, IF YOU COULD COME ON CAMERA, THAT WOULD BE GOOD. 
          ALL RIGHT. 
          UH, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7. 
          OKAY. 
          UH, OPPOSED THAT, UM, AMENDMENT PASSES. 
          THANK YOU. 
          7 0 1. 
          DID YOU VOTE? I ABSTAINED. 
          OKAY. 
          OKAY. 
          UM, AND NOW COM. 
          UH, VICE CHAIR ROBBINS HAS ANOTHER, UH, COMMITMENT IN THE FIRST, IN THE FIRST PARAGRAPH, UH, WHERE IT SAYS, UH, WITHOUT ASSOCIATION TO ANY AUSTIN RMC AND EUC MEMBERS, I THINK WE SHOULD HAVE A QUALIFYING WORD THAT SAYS, WITHOUT FINANCIAL ASSOCIATION TO ANY AUSTIN RMC OR EUC MEMBERS. 
          I MEAN, IF WE KNOW A CONSULTANT AND WE TELL THEM, WELL, MAYBE YOU SHOULD COMPETE MM-HMM . 
          I, I DON'T THINK THAT SHOULD BE THE SAME THING AS WELL. 
          WE'RE, WE'RE WORKING WITH THEM. 
          AND, AND SO, UH, I I THINK JUST QUALIFYING AND SAYING FINANCIAL ASSOCIATION WOULD BE, UH, MORE CLEAR. 
          AND I WOULD LIKE TO MOVE THAT, UH, THAT THIS BE A FRIENDLY AMENDMENT. 
          UH, WOULD THE MAKERS OF THIS MOTION, UH, A SEED TO THIS FRIENDLY AMENDMENT? OKAY, I'M SEEING NODS. 
          NODS ARE HAPPENING. 
          OKAY. 
          , UM, SO DO YOU THIS, IT'S BEEN MOVED AND SECONDED. 
          I GAVE IT TO HER, PAUL. 
          OKAY. 
          IT'S BEEN MOVED AND SECONDED TO ADD THE WORD FINANCIAL IN THE PARAGRAPH, CLARIFYING THAT THE CONSULTANT, I DON'T HAVE IT IN FRONT OF ME, NOT HAVE FINANCIAL TIES TO ANY RMC OR EUC MEMBER. 
          UH, ALL IN FAVOR IS YAEL ON CAMERA, UH, COMMISSION. 
          OKAY. 
          UM, ANY OPPOSED? ONE ABSTENTION. 
          THAT AMENDMENT CARRIES 7 0 1. 
          CAN I MAKE A REMARKABLY PEDANTIC, UH, COMMENT? UH, JUST THAT GEOTHERMAL IS ONE WORD, NOT TWO. 
          YES. 
          I'M SO SORRY. 
          LIKE IT BEING TWO WORDS, , I, I KNOW IT FEELS BETTER BEING TWO WORDS, BUT IT, BUT IT IS ONE, IT'S TWO IDEAS WRAPPED TOGETHER IS WHAT IT IS. 
          [01:55:01]
TWO WORDS. 
          THAT IS NO . 
          OKAY. 
          UM, ALRIGHT. 
          ARE THERE ANY MORE, IS THERE ANY MORE DISCUSSION OR ANY MORE, UM, PROPOSED AMENDMENTS ON THIS RECOMMENDATION BEFORE WE TAKE IT TO THE FLOOR? I, I JUST WANT TO AGAIN, COMMEND THE TWO PEOPLE THAT BROUGHT THIS TO US. 
          GOOD WORK. 
          I SECOND. 
          ALRIGHT. 
          UM, THIS, THIS, UH, RECOMMENDATION HAS BEEN MOVED AND SECONDED. 
          UM, SO ALL IN FAVOR OF ADOPTING THE RECOMMENDATION, REQUESTING INDEPENDENT ANALYSIS, YADA, YADA, YADA AS AMENDED , PLEASE RAISE YOUR HAND, WHATEVER. 
          1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7. 
          OKAY. 
          ALL OPPOSED. 
          ZERO ONE ABSTENTION. 
          AND THIS RECOMMENDATION IS ADOPTED. 
          GOOD JOB EVERYONE. 
          ALL RIGHT. 
          UM, SO WE ARE GOING TO SKIP ITEM NUMBER FIVE. 
          UH, AND TABLE THAT TILL NEXT MEETING? YES. 
          YEAH. 
          OKAY. 
          UM, THAT BRINGS US TO ITEM 
          [6. Discussion and recommendation on the Commission’s option to comment on Recommendations for Council Action.]
NUMBER SIX, WHICH IS DISCUSSION AND RECOMMENDATION ON THE COMMISSION'S OPTION TO COMMENT ON RECOMMENDATIONS FOR COUNCIL ACTION RCAS. 
          SO VICE CHAIR ROBBINS, YOU BROUGHT THIS TO THE COMMISSION. 
          UM, I HAVE A FEW HARD COPIES I'VE GOT ANYONE NEEDS YOU WANT. 
          UM, UH, AT OUR LAST MEETING, UH, MOST, IF NOT ALL OF YOU WILL RECALL THAT I WANTED US TO COMMENT ON THE, UH, WATER, UH, THE PURPLE PIPE REBATE PROGRAM. 
          I ABSTAINED. 
          I WAS THE ONLY ABSTENTION, AND IT WASN'T 'CAUSE I DIDN'T BELIEVE IN THE PROGRAM. 
          IT'S BECAUSE THIS HAS COME UP AT LEAST THREE, MAYBE FOUR TIMES BEFORE. 
          AND I WANTED TO KNOW WHEN THIS REBATE FOR WHAT IS ACTUALLY IN THE CODE WOULD BE COMPLETED, AND THEY COULD NOT TELL US. 
          SO THEN I WANTED TO RELAY A COMMENT TO COUNSEL, AND WE WERE NOT ALLOWED TO MAKE A COMMENT TO COUNSEL BECAUSE IT WAS NOT POSTED IN A TIMELY MANNER. 
          AND I DON'T WANT TO GO THROUGH THIS FRUSTRATION AGAIN. 
          SO THE EASIEST WAY I COULD THINK OF IS TO JUST FROM HERE ON AUTOMATICALLY POST, UH, THIS FOR A DISCUSSION AND VOTE. 
          SHOULD THE COMMISSION WANT TO HAVE, UH, ADDITIONAL COMMENTS. 
          THERE'S NOTHING. 
          I MEAN, I HOPE THAT WE DON'T FEEL OBLIGATED TO DO, OH, WELL, THERE'S AN RCA, WE NEED TO SAY SOMETHING. 
          IF WE'RE FINE WITH THE RESOLUTION AS IS, THEN NO, WE DON'T NEED TO DISCUSS IT FURTHER OR SEND ANOTHER RECOMMENDATION TO COUNCIL. 
          BUT THERE ARE TIMES LIKE LAST WEEK THAT, THAT I WOULD'VE VALUED THE OPPORTUNITY. 
          AND SO TO PREVENT FURTHER MAYHEM, UH, AND DISSATISFACTION, I HAVE DEVISED THIS SHORT BUT SIMPLE RESOLUTION. 
          AND I WILL READ INTO THE RECORD THE BE IT RESOLVED PARAGRAPH, THEN BE IT RESOLVED THAT BEGINNING WITH THE MEETING OF NOVEMBER, 2026, UH, RCAS RECOMMENDATIONS FOR COUNCIL ACTION, UH, POSTED FOR CONSIDERATION ON THE COMMISSION AGENDA. 
          ALSO HAVE AN AUTOMATIC ITEM POSTED, ALLOWING THE COMMISSION THE OPTION TO OFFER FURTHER OPINIONS ON THE RCAS TO COUNSEL FOR CONSIDERATION. 
          THE, UH, AND I, I WOULD LIKE, LIKE YOU ALL TO CONSIDER THIS. 
          I AM, I AM THE MOVING THIS FOR PASSAGE. 
          SECOND. 
          OKAY. 
          IT'S BEEN MOVED AND SECONDED, UH, TO, UM, ADOPT THIS RECOMMENDATION SO WE CAN OPEN FOR DISCUSSION. 
          I JUST, I HAVE A, I GUESS A POINT OF CLARIFICATION I WANT TO REQUEST, WHICH IS, I, I, I UNDERSTAND THIS, 
          [02:00:01]
UM, THIS SENTIMENT IN THAT SOMETIMES THESE THINGS COME TO US AND THERE IS NUANCE. 
          IT'S, IT'S NOT TOTALLY BLACK AND WHITE. 
          AND SOMETIMES WE WANNA SAY, YES, WE, WE WANNA APPROVE IT, OR WE'RE APPROVING IT THROUGH GRIDED TEETH OR, UM, PLEASE CONSIDER X, Y, Z. 
          UM, SO I GUESS TWO THINGS. 
          ONE DOES, IF WE PASS THIS RECOMMENDATION, DOES THIS GIVE US A MECHANISM TO, TO ACTUALLY DO THAT? WHAT, WHENEVER WE PASS A RECOMMENDATION, THEY GO TO COUNCIL FOR CONSIDERATION. 
          LET'S SAY THIS GOES TO COUNCIL AND CITY COUNCIL, UH, ADOPTS A RESOLUTION MIRRORING THIS. 
          SO DOES THAT MEAN THAT, UH, THERE'S NOT, THERE'S NOT GOING TO BE ANYTHING POSTED AT OUR MEETING THAT SAYS THE SENTIMENT OF WHAT THIS, UH, BODY FELT ABOUT A CERTAIN RCA, RIGHT? LIKE, OKAY, WE DON'T, WE DON'T LIKE PUR, WE LIKE THE PURPLE PIPE PROGRAM, BUT WE REALLY WANT YOU TO, TO PHASE OUT THESE REBATES FOR STUFF THAT'S ALREADY IN THE CODE THAT WE HAVE NOT POSTED THAT AS SOMETHING TO VOTE ON TO AGREE. 
          AND, AND THAT'S WHAT WOULD BE AUTO, I MEAN, WE WOULD AUTOMATICALLY HAVE A SLOT TO CONSIDER AND VOTE ON COMMENTS RELATED TO THE RCA AND THIS, I'M NOT RECOMMENDED THIS RESOLUTION AS WRITTEN. 
          I'M NOT SUGGESTING WE SEND THIS TO COUNSEL. 
          THIS IS FOR OUR OWN OPERATIONAL, UH, UM, PROCEDURES. 
          OKAY. 
          AND, AND I THINK, YOU KNOW, AS A, AS A BODY AND AS CHAIR, I'M FINE SAYING, HEY, WHEN THERE'S AN RCA, LET'S HAVE A, UH, YOU KNOW, A DISCUSSION ABOUT IT AND, AND MAKE COMMENTS. 
          BUT LIKE FROM THE, I GUESS THE POINT OF WHAT THOSE COMMENTS WOULD BE, WE TYPICALLY, WHEN WE SEND A RECOMMENDATION, WE SEND SOMETHING TO COUNCIL, WE HAVE ALL VOTED ON IT, AND WE HAVE, THE MAJORITY OF US HAVE AGREED THAT THIS IS OUR VIEW OF WHATEVER THE TOPIC IS. 
          SO WHETHER IT COULD BE A TOPIC ON THE RCA, IT'S FEELS LIKE WE'RE GONNA HAVE TO, UH, WORD THOSE, THOSE THINGS ON THE FLY DURING THE MEETING AND THEN VOTE ON THE WORDING OF WHAT WE WANT TO SEND TO COUNSEL. 
          IS THAT HOW THAT YES, THAT WOULD BE CORRECT. 
          THAT'S HOW THAT WOULD WORK. 
          I MEAN, IT'S POSSIBLE. 
          READ IT TO THE RECORD. 
          IT'S ALL, WE COULD EITHER WORD IT ON THE FLY OR WE, IT MIGHT BE POSSIBLE TO PRE-THINK IT IN ADVANCE. 
          UH, IN SOME CASES, UH, EITHER OF THESE OPTIONS ARE POSSIBLE. 
          MM-HMM . 
          YES, GO AHEAD. 
          COMMISSIONER. 
          SILVERSTEIN, IT, IT IS MY HOPE THAT THIS WOULD NOT BE USED VERY OFTEN, BUT AS IN THE CASE OF THE PURPLE PIPES MM-HMM . 
          THERE WAS A SUBSTANTIVE ISSUE THAT I DON'T THINK ANY OF US THOUGHT ABOUT IN ADVANCE, PER SE. 
          WELL, PAUL THINKS ABOUT EVERYTHING IN ADVANCE, I APOLOGIZE, BUT I SURE DIDN'T. 
          AND, AND, UM, I THINK IT IS VALUABLE TO PRESERVE THE OPTION TO CREATE AND INSTITUTIONALIZE THE OPTION THAT IF SOMETHING IMPORTANT COMES UP ON AN RCA, THAT WE AS A GROUP FEEL DESERVE MORE ATTENTION AND EXPLICATION, WE HAVE THE ABILITY TO DO THAT. 
          AND THIS CREATES THAT OPTION. 
          EVEN THOUGH IT, THE FACT THAT WE MIGHT HAVE TO DO IT ON THE FLY MEANS THAT WE SHOULD BE CAREFUL IN AND, AND JUDICIOUS IN SELECTING OUR WORDS SO THAT THIS DOESN'T TURN INTO A LONG NIGHTMARE OF EVERY MEETING. 
          BUT I, FOR ONE, COMMIT TO USE THIS AS LITTLE AS POSSIBLE. 
          UM, AND THAT'S, THAT'S FAIR. 
          AND I ALSO SEE THAT IF IT IS AN AUTOMATIC THING THAT ON EVERY MEETING THERE WOULD NEED TO BE POSTED, YOU KNOW, RECOMMENDATION ON RCA PUR PURPLE PIPE RCA WITHOUT ANY MORE, LIKE, UM, DECLARE, YOU KNOW, WITH ANY MORE SPECIFICITY THAN THAT, AND THEN WE WOULD HAVE TO LITERALLY READ INTO THE RECORD WORDING. 
          UM, AND, YOU KNOW, AND THAT, AND I JUST WANNA UNDERSTAND, I'M THINKING ABOUT HOW THIS, UM, YOU KNOW, HOW WE CAN MAKE SURE WE ARE COMPLIANT WITH THE TEXAS OPEN MEETINGS 
          [02:05:01]
ACT BECAUSE PEOPLE WANT TO, IN THEORY, COME AND, AND HEAR AND COMMENT ON THINGS THAT WE'RE, WE'RE TALKING ABOUT. 
          UM, SO EVEN THOUGH WE MAY FEEL LIKE WE WILL USE IT ONLY SPARINGLY, IT WOULD BE ON THE AGENDA EVERY TIME. 
          RIGHT? THAT'S HOW THAT WOULD PLAY OUT. 
          YES. 
          OKAY. 
          UM, I WANNA GO TO COMMISSIONER SCHWARTZ. 
          YOU'VE BEEN WANTING TO TALK FOR A MINUTE. 
          YEAH, I WAS JUST FOLLOWING UP. 
          SO MECHANICALLY, WHAT WOULD IT LOOK LIKE THEN? EVERY STAFF BRIEFING ITEM IS ALSO GONNA BE ON THE NO, NO. 
          OKAY. 
          RCAS. 
          YEAH. 
          OKAY. 
          MANY. 
          THERE ARE MANY OF OUR AGENDAS THAT DON'T HAVE ANY RCAS AT ALL. 
          OKAY. 
          OF COURSE. 
          OKAY. 
          POINT NUMBER ONE. 
          POINT NUMBER TWO, WE COULD HAVE THIS FOR EVERY RCA AGENDA ITEM THAT IS LISTED, WE COULD ADD THE GENERIC ADDITIONAL AGENDA ITEM UNDER IT, POTENTIAL RMC, COMMENT ON RCA, WHATEVER, SOME IDENTIFIER RCA, IN, IN AGENDA ITEM TWO. 
          AND THEN THE AGENDA ITEM THREE IS POTENTIAL RMC COMMENT ON RCA AND AGENDA ITEM TWO. 
          SO, SO THAT, BECAUSE IT SAYS POTENTIAL, IT MEANS THAT IT DOESN'T COMMIT US TO HAVING SOMETHING SMART TO SAY ABOUT IT. 
          AND IT ALSO, YOU CAN LOOK UP AND SAY, OKAY, WHILE WE'RE LOOKING AT THIS, DOES ANYBODY WANNA, WHEN YOU CALL AGENDA ITEM TWO, THAT RCA FOR THE VOTE, YOU CAN LOOK, REFLECT ON THE DISCUSSION OF AGENDA ITEM TWO AND SAY, IS THERE ANYTHING THAT WE NEED TO ROLL OVER INTO A POTENTIAL COMMENT, PLEASE BE, PLEASE BE RELUCTANT TO DO SO. 
          AND THAT WOULD JUST TO CLEAR, THAT WOULD BE A SEPARATE ITEM THAT WOULD NOT BE ON ITEM TWO IN YOUR EXAMPLE. 
          CORRECT. 
          THAT WOULD BE ITEM THREE. 
          THAT, THAT WOULD SEEM TO BE EASIEST AS AS A WAY FOR, FOR MS. GOODWIN TO LIST THE MEETING, ORGANIZE THE MEETING AGENDA AS EVERY TIME WE HAVE AN RCA WE PUT IN THE POTENTIAL RMC COMMENT AND FOR YOU TO MANAGE THE MEETING IS, YOU CAN GO THROUGH THE DISCUSSION AND ASK US, DO WE NEED TO TAKE UP ITEM THREE AT ALL? COMMISSIONER FARMER, I'M ENJOYING YOU LIKE WATCHING YOUR BRAIN ON YOUR FACE RIGHT NOW. 
          UM, I THINK I SHARE, I'M ALSO WRESTLING WITH THIS, BUT YOU'RE IN THE HOT SEAT. 
          I THINK, LIKE I SHARE COMMISSIONER SILVERSTEIN'S COMMITMENT TO, UH, TRYING TO BE JUDICIOUS WITH HOW WE USE THIS. 
          AND IF IT ENDS UP THAT WE HAVE A COUPLE MEETINGS THAT TURN INTO CHAOS, WE CAN ALWAYS REVOKE IT. 
          AND SO I'M GOOD WITH TRYING IT OUT, SEEING HOW IT GOES. 
          'CAUSE I DO THINK IT IS A, YOU KNOW, SORT OF A BLIND SPOT, YOU KNOW, FOR US WHERE WE'RE NOT ABLE TO COMMENT BEYOND JUST THE PUBLIC RECORD ON THESE ITEMS THAT WE'RE FEEL LIKE SOMETIMES MORE IN COMMENT. 
          YEAH. 
          UM, COMMISSIONER LUKI, UH, TWO THINGS. 
          ONE, UH, COMMISSIONER SILVERSTEIN IS CORRECT. 
          THERE IS A BUG , HE'S COME OVER AND VISITED ME A COUPLE TIMES NOW, . 
          IT'S TRUE. 
          UH, TWO, UM, I'VE BEEN SERVING ON THE ENVIRONMENTAL COMMISSION NOW FOR ABOUT A YEAR AND A HALF. 
          AND WE BASICALLY DO THIS EVERY SINGLE MEETING, THIS EXACT THING THAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT, WHERE WE ADD THINGS INTO THE RECOMMENDATION OF THE COUNCIL BECAUSE WE ARE DEALING WITH ORGANIZATIONS THAT ARE COMING INTO, UH, BUILD SOMETHING AND THEY WANT VARIATIONS ON, VARIANCES ON, ON, UH, CODE, REAL SPECIFIC THINGS. 
          AND SO, UH, WHEN WE GO AROUND THE TABLE TO GET EVERYBODY'S COMMENT ON THIS ITEM THAT'S BEEN BROUGHT BEFORE US, UM, THE SECRETARY OF THE, OF, OF THE GROUP, THERE IS A SECRETARY WITHIN THE, UM, THAT PARTICULAR COMMISSION WHO'S TAKING NOTES DURING THE, THE DISCUSSION. 
          AND IF I CAME UP WITH SOMETHING LIKE GEOTHERMAL, THEY WOULD, IT WOULD ALL, IT WOULD BE AUTOMATICALLY ADDED IN. 
          AND SO THERE'S A RUNNING TALLY OF THIS GOING ON. 
          SO IT'S SOMEBODY'S JOB WITHIN THE ACCOUNT, THE COMMISSION, TO ACTUALLY DO THAT. 
          UM, AND SO, UH, I'M REALIZING NOW THAT THAT'S PRETTY MUCH ONLY HAPPENING IN THE  IN THAT COMMISSION. 
          UM, BUT UH, IT'S EVERY SINGLE TIME WE MEET, WE ARE DOING THAT FYI, BUT IT REQUIRES US HAVING A PERSON WITHIN THE 
          [02:10:01]
COMMISSION WHO IS THE QUOTE UNQUOTE SECRETARY WHO, WHO KEEPS UP WITH THAT. 
          UM, COMMISSIONER SCHWARTZ, DID YOU HAVE SOMETHING ELSE TO ADD? IT, I, I GUESS MY QUESTION IS HOW FORMAL, IF WE CAME UP WITH, TO USE THE PURPLE PIPE EXAMPLE, I THINK IT WAS PURPLE PIPE WHERE IT WE'RE SAYING WE'RE SKEPTICAL, OR WE WANT IT TO BE ON THE RECORD, THAT WE OPPOSE THESE INCENTIVES THAT ARE FOR THINGS THAT ARE ALREADY REQUIRED IN CODE. 
          UM, IS THAT WRITTEN, WOULD THAT BE WRITTEN LIKE A RESOLUTION OR THAT'S JUST, THAT'S JUST LIKE WE'RE, IT'S LITERALLY ONE SENTENCE. 
          RIGHT? YOU KNOW, COULD IT JUST BE INFORMAL? IT COULD BE, UM, AN ENTIRE RESOLUTION OR IT COULD BE ONE SENTENCE. 
          UH, THERE THERE IS NO RULE. 
          I JUST WANT TO RESERVE OUR ABILITY TO COMMENT. 
          THAT'S IT. 
          YEAH. 
          SO WHEREAS OUR RESOURCE MANAGEMENT COMMISSION IS, UH, SUGGESTS THAT THE CITY SHOULD REMOVE BLAH, BLAH, BLAH IN FUTURE YEARS, SOMETHING SIMPLE. 
          YEAH. 
          YEAH. 
          AND, AND, AND WE SHOULD BE, WE SHOULD WORK WITH MS. GOODWIN TO ASSURE THAT THE COMMENT GOES UP IMMEDIATELY WITH OUR VOTE ON THE RCA THAT IT DOESN'T GET LOST IN SEPARATE PAPERWORK. 
          UM, SO WITH THAT, I WANNA, I JUST WANNA ASK THE STAFF LIAISON, UM, , LIKE, UH, IS THAT SOMETHING THAT YOU CAN, UH, FACILITATE? YES. 
          UM, WE DON'T HAVE A PROBLEM WITH ADDING SOMETHING LIKE THIS, BUT IT DOES HAVE TO BE SPECIFIC TO WHATEVER RCA APPEARS ABOVE IT. 
          MM-HMM . 
          UM, PER TOOMA. 
          AND WE HAVE TO RUN OUR AGENDAS THROUGH THE CLERK'S OFFICE. 
          SO WE'LL REMAINS TO BE SEEN IF THEY HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THIS. 
          MM-HMM . 
          OR NOT. 
          OKAY. 
          BUT WE DON'T. 
          GREAT. 
          THANK YOU. 
          THAT'S THAT'S GREAT. 
          AND I, I ALSO WANNA COMMEND VICE CHAIR ROBBINS FOR COMING UP WITH A MECHANISM TO DO THAT. 
          'CAUSE I KNOW THAT'S SOMETHING THAT IS, IS A, IT'S A GAP. 
          SO THANK YOU FOR COMING WITH A AND CAN I ASK A CLARIFYING QUESTION OF COMMISSIONER LUKI, UM, AT THE ENVIRONMENTAL COMMISSION, DO YOU KNOW IF WHAT YOU'RE VOTING ON ARE RCAS OR IF THERE'S SOMETHING DIFFERENT THAN THAT? BECAUSE AN RCA IS A REQUEST FOR COUNCIL ACTION THAT IS A CONTRACT GENERALLY, OR A NEW PLAN OR, 'CAUSE IF YOU'RE, IF YOU'RE, IF THE ENVIRONMENTAL COMMISSION HAS DIFFERENT PURVIEW TO WORK ON A SERVICE EXTENSION REQUEST OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT WHERE YOU'RE ALLOWED TO AMEND AND WORDSMITH, IT MIGHT, IT MIGHT JUST BE A DIFFERENT, UM, A DIFFERENT PIECE. 
          TECHNICALLY, TECHNICALLY, I'M NOT EXACTLY SURE HOW IT WORKS. 
          OKAY. 
          OKAY. 
          TELL THE TRUTH. 
          OKAY. 
          I JUST KNOW THAT , WE, WE DO IT EVERY TIME. 
          OKAY. 
          OKAY. 
          AND, AND THEN, AND, UH, SO IF WE VOTE, WE VOTE ON THIS RECOMMENDATION, UM, VICE CHAIR ROBBINS HAS SAID THIS IS REALLY JUST FOR SOMETHING FOR OUR INTERNAL PROCESS OR, YOU KNOW, THE WAY THAT WE'RE GOING TO OPERATE ON THIS PARTICULAR COMMISSION, THEN, UM, THIS WILL GO TO COUNCIL. 
          OR CAN WE SAY THIS IS JUST FOR US? OR HOW DOES THAT WORK? I'M, I, I THINK THIS WOULD, WOULD FALL UNDER YOUR PURVIEW AS THE CHAIR TO SET THE AGENDA. 
          OKAY. 
          SO I DON'T THINK THIS NEEDS, WE DON'T NEED TO DEAL WITH COUNSEL ON THIS. 
          OKAY. 
          BUT WE WILL HAVE TO DEAL WITH CLERK'S OFFICE. 
          OKAY. 
          I, I AM, I, I AM VERY, UM, SUPPORTIVE OF, OF THIS, OF DOING, YOU KNOW, CERTAINLY TRYING IT, UM, FOR OUR CAS AND, UM, SO, YOU KNOW, WE CAN CERTAINLY TAKE A VOTE ON THIS IF, IF THE COM THE COMMISSION WOULD LIKE TO, OR YOU CAN HOLD ME TO THIS, I'M BEING RECORDED THAT, YOU KNOW, WE'LL, UH, SET THE AGENDA UP THIS WAY IN THIS WAY AND TRY IT AS WE GO FORWARD. 
          I THINK IT'S A GOOD IDEA TO VOTE ON IT NOW SO THAT THERE IS NO QUESTION IN THE CITY CLERK'S OFFICE ABOUT OUR COMMITMENT TO THIS PROCESS POINT TAKEN. 
          THAT'S A GREAT POINT. 
          OKAY. 
          IS THERE ANY OTHER DISCUSSION ON THIS, UH, RECOMMENDATION? HEARING NONE, WE WILL TAKE A VOTE. 
          ALL IN FAVOR OF THE RECOMMENDATION TO OFFER FURTHER OPINIONS AT THE SAME TIME AS RECOMMENDATIONS FOR COUNCIL ACTION. 
          PLEASE RAISE HAND, UH, THAT IS EIGHT. 
          ANY OPPOSED? UM, THAT RECOMMENDATION IS ADOPTED. 
          ALRIGHT. 
          THANKS EVERYONE. 
          WOO. 
          ALRIGHT. 
          THE MOSQUITO IS HERE. 
          ALL 
          [7. Discussion and approval of the 2027 Resource Management Commission Annual Meeting Schedule.]
RIGHT. 
          NUMBER SEVEN IS DISCUSSION AND APPROVAL OF THE 
          [02:15:01]
RMC ANNUAL MEETING SCHEDULE FOR 2027. 
          CAN WE PULL THAT SCHEDULE UP ON THE SCREEN PLEASE? AND CAN WE MAKE IT JUST A SCOOCH BIGGER? MY EYES ARE, MY EYES ARE OLD . 
          OKAY. 
          THANK YOU. 
          OKAY, SO THIS IS THE PROPOSED, UM, MEETING SCHEDULE FOR NEXT YEAR. 
          IT IS PRETTY MUCH THE SAME AS THIS YEAR AND, UH, THIRD, THIRD TUESDAY OF THE MONTH, EXCEPT FOR MARCH WHEN IT IS, UH, PROPOSED TO BE SLIDE BACK A A WEEK DUE TO SPRING BREAK. 
          AND THEN IN JUNE, UH, THERE IS A RECOMMENDATION NOT TO HAVE A JUNE MEETING SINCE COUNCIL IS NOT MEETING IN JUNE. 
          UM, SO THAT'S NO SCHEDULED MEETING IN JUNE. 
          THERE'S OBVIOUSLY ALWAYS THE OPTION TO DO A SPECIAL CALL MEETING IF WE HAVE BUSINESS THAT IS TIMELY. 
          AND THEN DECEMBER WE, THIS COMMISSION SINCE I'VE BEEN ON IT, HAS NEVER MET IN DECEMBER. 
          UM, SO YES, SO YOU SEE THE MEETING DATES, CANCEL DATES AND AGENDA SUBMITTAL DUE DATES. 
          UH, I MOVE THAT WE ADOPT THE, UM, MEETING SCHEDULE. 
          SECOND. 
          OKAY. 
          IS THERE DISCUSSION? YES, GO AHEAD. 
          WHAT'S THE DEAL WITH JUNE THAT WE USUALLY, THE DEAL WITH JUNE MM-HMM . 
          IS THAT, UM, THE EUC DOESN'T MEET IN JUNE. 
          THE COUNCIL DOESN'T MEET IN JUNE. 
          UM, AND IT'S A PROBABLY A, A BIT OF MORE OF A BURDEN ON STAFF TO SUPPORT THE RMC IN JUNE. 
          SO WE COULD DO THE SAME WHAT WE DID IN JUNE THIS YEAR. 
          WE CAN DO IN JULY. 
          IT WOULDN'T DELAY. 
          YEAH. 
          WE COULD SLIDE THE BUSINESS TO JULY OR IF IT'S TIMELY, LIKE SINCE THERE'S NOT A COUNCIL MEETING IN JUNE THERE, YOU KNOW, SOMETIMES, I MEAN, THERE MAY BE STUFF THAT IS, THAT IS TIMELY THAT WE DO WANNA GET AHEAD OF, IN WHICH CASE WE CAN STILL CALL A SPECIAL MEETING FOR JUNE. 
          OH. 
          SO IN MAY WE COULD DECIDE TO MEET IN JUNE OR WHATEVER. 
          YES. 
          WHATEVER. 
          YES. 
          OR JUNE 1ST WE COULD SAY, HEY, WE'VE GOT STUFF THAT IS BURNING. 
          WE'VE GOTTA, WE'VE GOTTA MEET. 
          THANK YOU. 
          UM, THE OTHER TWO COMMISSIONS THAT I SERVE ON DO, DO THE SAME THING. 
          THEY SKIP A MONTH. 
          ONE OF THEM IS IN JULY AND THE OTHER ONE IS, BUT THE OTHER TWO, YEAH, THAT I'M ON THERE. 
          THEY SKIP JULY. 
          HOW MANY ARE YOU ON, SIR? THREE. 
          MY GOODNESS. 
          I WOULD PREFER TO SKIP JULY. 
           . 
          YEAH. 
          UM, GO AHEAD. 
          I I I'M MOVED. 
          IT'S BEEN MOVED IN SECOND. 
          I'M READY TO VOTE. 
          YEAH. 
          ANY OTHER DISCUSSION? OKAY. 
          ALL IN FAVOR OF ADOPTING THIS MEETING SCHEDULED FOR 2027. 
          PLEASE SAY, AYE, RAISE YOUR HAND. 
          UM, ALRIGHT, THAT IS EIGHT. 
          THE AGENDA SCHEDULE IS ADOPTED. 
          ALRIGHT. 
          MOVING RIGHT ALONG. 
          [8. Update from the joint RMC/EUC Local Solar + Storage Process Working Group regarding meeting highlights and next steps.]
MOVING GROUP WORKING GROUP UPDATES. 
          SO WE DO HAVE A PLACE FOR JOINT ARM, CEUC, SOLAR STORAGE AND LONG-TERM STORAGE WORKING GROUP UPDATES. 
          DO WE HAVE UPDATES? WE GOT UPDATES. 
          ALL RIGHT. 
          LET'S HEAR 'EM. 
          THE JOINT SOLAR STORAGE WORKING GROUP IS, UM, EUC AND RMC. 
          THE LEAD FOR THAT GROUP IS AL BRADEN OF THE EUC. 
          WE HAVE A MAXIMUM OF FIVE MEMBERS OF EACH COMMISSION. 
          WE DON'T HAVE FIVE MEMBERS OF FEWER THAN FIVE, BUT THE FIVE IS OF COURSE THE MAX WE CAN HAVE ON EACH COMMISSION. 
          AND THE GROUP, THE SOLAR AND STORAGE IS LOOKING AT THE NUTS AND BOLTS OF HOW TO SPEED UP, UM, HOW TO, HOW TO MAKE THE WHOLE SOLAR AND STORAGE INSTALLATION PROCESS ON INDIVIDUAL HOMES AND BUSINESSES MORE EFFECTIVE AND EASIER AND FASTER FOR BOTH THE CITY AND FOR APPLICANTS INSTALLERS AND, AND POTENTIAL BUYERS. 
          UM, SO THAT IS UNDERWAY. 
          THE FIRST DISCUSSION WAS, UM, VERY GOOD. 
          THE CITY HAS, HAS MADE SIGNIFICANT PROGRESS SINCE THE, EVEN THE, UM, COUPLE OF BRIEFINGS THAT WE RECEIVED HERE. 
          AND THE MOST ACTIVE MEMBERS OF THE SOLAR AND STORAGE INSTALLERS AND, AND STAKEHOLDER GROUP ARE MEMBERS OF THIS ON OUR STRONG CONTRIBUTORS. 
          [02:20:01]
THERE WAS A SECOND MEETING TODAY, YESTERDAY THAT I HAD TO MISS. 
          'CAUSE OF, UM, PRIOR MEDICAL APPOINTMENTS. 
          I HAVE NOT, I APOLOGIZE. 
          DIDN'T HAVE A CHANCE TO GET BRIEFED ON WHAT HAPPENED. 
          UM, UNLESS MS. EVERHART WANTS TO LEAP FORWARD AND SHARE ANYTHING FROM THAT WHICH SHE NEED NOT DO, UM, I IMAGINE THAT THEY CONTINUED TO MAKE GOOD PROGRESS BECAUSE THE CITY HAS VERY GOOD STAFF CONTRIBUTING TO THIS AND THE PEOP EVERYBODY ON THE, THE GROUP WANTS TO MAKE IT WORK, IS MY IMPRESSION. 
          THAT GREAT. 
          I'LL, YEAH. 
          I'LL JUST ADD THAT TIM HARVEY WAS ON THE CALL AND ANSWERED A BUNCH OF QUESTIONS FOR THEM, UM, AND THEY WILL MEET AT 11:00 AM UH, MAYBE YOU ALREADY SAID THIS ON THE THIRD MONDAY OF THE MONTH, BUT IF YOU WANT TO THANK YOU. 
          IF YOU DO WANT TO PARTICIPATE, REMEMBER THAT WE NEED TO, AS A LISTENER, REMEMBER THAT WE HAVE STRICT LIMITS ON HOW MANY MEMBERS OF A COMMISSION CAN BE PRESENT IN A MEETING. 
          SO WE CAN'T VIOLATE THOSE FORMS OR ON THE GROUP, ACTUALLY ON THE WORKING GROUP PERIOD. 
          YEAH. 
          FULL STOP. 
          BECAUSE YEAH. 
          WELL, WELL, THERE IS A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN BEING A MEMBER OF THE WORKING GROUP AND LISTENING, BUT EVEN LISTENING, I BEING PART OF THE MEETING, I THINK PROBABLY TRIGGERS THE QUORUM LIMIT. 
          DO YOU? YES. 
          BUT ALSO IF I, AND MAYBE WE CAN MAKE SURE WE CLARIFY THIS, IS THAT YOU CAN'T HAVE ANY MORE THAN FIVE ON, ON A, ON A CALL IN A MEETING. 
          EXACTLY. 
          BUT ALSO YOU CAN'T HAVE THESE FIVE ON THIS MEETING AND THEN THESE OTHER, YOU KNOW, THEN TWO MORE THAT WEREN'T IN THE FIRST FIVE PLUS THREE IN THE NEXT MEETING ON THE SAME TOPIC. 
          LIKE THE SAME GROUP, LIKE THE WALKING QUORUM IDEA, IT'S LIKE A WALKING QUORUM, BUT YOU CAN CUT OFF YOUR ACTIVITY IF SOMEONE WANTED TO SAY, I NEVER WANT TO TALK ABOUT THAT AGAIN. 
          RIGHT, RIGHT. 
          BUT IT'S NOT LIKE A COME AND GO KIND OF A THING BECAUSE THEN, THEN YOU'RE, YOU'RE WALKING HORRIBLY. 
          SO, WHICH, WHICH IS WHAT I WAS TRYING TO SAY IS IF YOU WANNA JOIN THE CALL, LET'S BE VERY CAREFUL ABOUT TALK, TALK TO AL FIRST MM-HMM . 
          AND, AND LET'S MAKE SURE WE TRACK HOW MANY PEOPLE HAVE, HOW MANY MEMBERS OF THIS COMMISSION HAVE BEEN IN PRIOR MEETINGS OR EXPECT SO, SO THAT WE DON'T CREATE ANY PROBLEMS FOR THAT. 
          RIGHT. 
          THE, THE CURRENT INVITE HAS THE FIVE OF US. 
          [9. Update from the joint RMC/EUC Long Term Storage Working Group regarding meeting highlights and next steps.]
THE SECOND GROUP IS THE LONG DURATION ENERGY STORAGE GROUP. 
          I'M LEADING THAT ONE. 
          IT ALSO HAS MEMBERS FROM THE EUC AND THE RMC. 
          UM, WE EXPECT TO BE GETTING, UH, ONE OR MORE MEMBERS OF AUSTIN ENERGY STAFF JOINING US. 
          THE NEXT MEETING OF THAT. 
          WE HAD THE FIRST MEETING WHERE WE LAID OUT WHAT WE WANTED TO ACCOMPLISH. 
          UM, AND THEN, AND, AND OUR HOPE IS TO COLLECT A LOT OF, BECAUSE LONG DURATION ENERGY STORAGE TECHNOLOGIES AND COSTS ARE DROPPING SO DRAMATICALLY AND THEIR RELATIVE TO THE COST OF OTHER RESOURCES AND AVAILABILITY, UM, WE WANT TO COLLECT UP TO DATE INFORMATION AND, UM, USE CASES ON IT AND GET, UH, AND, AND HELP WORK WITH AUSTIN ENERGY TO GET EVERYBODY UP TO SPEED TO BETTER INFORM OURSELVES AND, AND THE AE STAFF ABOUT WHAT THE POTENTIAL USES ARE AND VIABILITY OF THIS SET OF OPTIONS. 
          THE NEXT MEETING WILL BE NOVEMBER 5TH, AND I WILL HAVE A MEMBER OF THE LONG DURATION ENERGY STORAGE COUNCIL PART PRESENTING. 
          UM, AND THEY ARE SORT OF THE, THE DOMINANT AUTHORITIES AND THE ONES WHO DOCUMENT USE CASES AND PULL TOGETHER ALL OF THE DATA ON, ON COSTS AND APPLICATIONS AND THE LIKE. 
          SO THAT'S EXCITING. 
          AND IT IS. 
          AND AND MY GOAL FOR THAT IS THAT WE'VE GOT SOME PRETTY SOLID, UM, I'M GONNA USE THE TERM WORK PRODUCT LOOSELY. 
          I DON'T THINK WE'LL PRESENT ANY REPORT, BUT WE'LL PROBABLY SLAP TOGETHER A FEW GOOD PAPERS AND EXAMPLES AND PUT A COVER ON IT AND SEND IT AROUND. 
          AND I'LL BE HAPPY TO MAKE A PRESENTATION TO THIS GROUP WHEN AND, AND TO THE E YOU SEE WHEN WE HAVE SOMETHING MORE SOLID TO SHARE. 
          AND MY GOAL IS TO HAVE ALL THAT DONE WITHIN ABOUT SIX MONTHS. 
          GREAT. 
          THANK YOU SO MUCH. 
          THANK YOU. 
          UM, OKAY, ITEM 10 
          [10. Discussion regarding the status of the District Energy and Cooling.]
IS YOURS AS WELL. 
          COMMISSIONER SILVERSTEIN DISCUSSION REGARDING STATUS OF DISTRICT ENERGY AND COOLING. 
          MS. EVER HEARD ANYTHING NEW? NO, MA'AM. 
          OKAY. 
          THANK YOU. 
          OKAY. 
          UH, YOU'LL LET US KNOW COURSE WHAT AND THE CURRENT TIMING FOR, REMIND ME PLEASE. 
          WE WERE TOLD END OF THE YEAR, THAT'S WHAT WE WERE TOLD. 
          THERE HASN'T BEEN ANY UPDATE, WELL, ACTUALLY WE WERE TOLD OCTOBER OF, AND THEN MANY, MANY, MANY, MANY MONTHS AFTER THAT. 
          JUNE, OCTOBER OF LAST YEAR, WE WERE TOLD THAT IT WOULD BE END OF THE YEAR. 
          THAT'S THE LATEST 
          [02:25:02]
OFFICIALLY THE LAST THING YOU WERE TOLD WAS YOU'LL GET AN UPDATE WHEN WE HAVE ONE. 
          SO THERE'S THE, THERE'S NOT A TIMELINE AT THE MOMENT. 
          OKAY. 
          FEEL, FEEL FREE TO USE THIS AS THE, TO, TO, TO, TO SHARE WITH AE MANAGEMENT THAT WE ARE EAGER TO, TO HEAR SOME NEW INFORMATION AND, AND TO PURSUE RESOLUTION ON THIS ISSUE. 
          THANK YOU. 
          THOSE ARE YOUR WORDS. 
          AND, AND YES THEY ARE. 
          YOU'RE WELCOME. 
          OKAY. 
          [FUTURE AGENDA ITEMS]
FUTURE AGENDA ITEMS. GO AHEAD, COMMISSIONER FARMER. 
          UM, I HAVE, UH, I SENT AN EMAIL, UH, REQUESTING, UM, A STAFF UPDATE OR BRIEFING ON THE, UH, CITY'S GREEN BUILDING POLICY. 
          UM, WHICH YES, COMMISSIONER CHAIR DAVIS REACHED OUT TO, UH, OCAR AND GOT A BRIEF UPDATE ON. 
          SO, UM, YEAH, SO I, I APPRECIATED YOUR SENDING THAT OUT. 
          SO I GUESS THERE IS A, THERE IS AN INTERNAL GREEN BUILDING POLICY, WHICH GOVERNS HOW IT'S LIKE NEW CITY FACILITIES ARE, ARE BUILT OR REFURBISHED. 
          SO GREEN BUILDING POLICY, WHICH IS SEPARATE FROM AUSTIN ENERGY GREEN BUILDING MM-HMM . 
          WHICH WAS NEWS TO ME. 
          SO THANK YOU SO MUCH. 
          UM, AND THE AUSTIN CLIMATE ACTION AND RESILIENCE O CAR. 
          IT'S A CAR NOW. 
          I THINK. 
          A CAR. 
          YEAH, I THINK I KNOW . 
          UM, THEY, THEY WERE, THEY'RE ON POINT ON IT. 
          SO I THINK THAT THE, THE ASK IS A, A BRIEFING ON WHETHER THERE'S AN UPDATE ON THAT. 
          YEAH. 
          OR IT SOUNDED POTENTIALLY LIKE FROM THE RESPONSE FROM THEM, MAYBE A BRIEFING WOULD BE PREMATURE OR NOT, OR THAT'S, THAT WAS WHAT THEY WOULDN'T HAVE MUCH TO BRIEF US ON. 
          THAT'S ESSENTIALLY, THAT'S WHAT I BELIEVE, BUT WE COULD PUT IT ON FOR, FOR FUTURE, LIKE JUST RECORD IT THAT A, A BRIEFING ON ANY POTENTIAL UPDATE ON AUSTIN'S GREEN BUILDING POLICY. 
          MM-HMM . 
          WOULD BE SOMETHING THAT THE COMMISSION WOULD BE INTERESTED IN. 
          SO, YEAH. 
          SO IS BACK THERE IS A, THERE'S A DOCUMENT, I THINK IT WAS 2020 OR 2021 WAS THE LAST, UM, UPDATE TO IT, BUT IT YEAH, THERE'S SORT OF GOVERNS CITY OWNED AND FUNDED PROJECTS THERE. 
          YES. 
          THERE IS A RESOLUTION FROM 2021 FROM SEPTEMBER OF 2021. 
          OKAY. 
          UM, OTHER FUTURE AGENDA ITEMS. UM, I HAVE SAID THIS AT SEVERAL MEETINGS, AND I'M GOING TO TRY AND FORCE MYSELF TO HAVE SOMETHING READY FOR EARLY NEXT YEAR, MAYBE EVEN JANUARY ON, UH, BREAKING OUT THESE AUSTIN ENERGY AND AUSTIN WATERS ENVIRONMENTAL PROGRAMS INTO A SEPARATE DEPARTMENT. 
          UM, A LONG TIME AGO, DECADES AGO, GO, UM, AUSTIN ENERGY WAS THEN CALLED THE AUSTIN ELECTRIC DEPARTMENT. 
          IT WAS A MUCH, MUCH SMALLER TOWN. 
          AND THE BIG ISSUE OF THE DAY WAS THE NUCLEAR PLANT, OR AS WE AFFECTIONATELY CALLED IT, THE NUKE. 
          AND IT HAD AN OVERRUN, UH, AUSTIN OWNED ONE SIXTH OF IT, BUT THE TOTAL COST FOR THE PROJECT WENT FROM $1 BILLION TO ABOUT $5.6 BILLION. 
          UH, AND IT ALREADY HAD AN ENVIRONMENTAL ONUS AND ADD TO THAT, THE FINANCIAL ONUS. 
          AND SO THE ELECTRIC DEPARTMENT WAS FOR THE, UM, THEY WERE THE PRO NUKES AND THE, UM, ANTI NUKES WERE FOR CONSERVATION BECAUSE WE REALLY DIDN'T HAVE RENEWABLES EXCEPT FOR PASSIVE SOLAR AT THAT TIME. 
          WHEN NEW COUNCIL MEMBERS WERE ELECTED IN 1981 AND 1982, A SEPARATE DEPARTMENT WAS SET UP AND THE, IT WAS BASICALLY TRIBES. 
          IT WAS LIKE WARRING TRIBES. 
          UH, THEY DIDN'T ACTUALLY WAR BECAUSE THEY WERE KEPT APART ADMINISTRATIVELY, AND THEY DID NOT OFFICE TOGETHER, BUT 
          [02:30:01]
THEY HAD VERY DIFFERENT PHILOSOPHIES, VERY DIFFERENT APPROACHES TO SOLVING ENERGY PROBLEMS. AND IT WASN'T UNTIL 1997 THAT THERE WAS A FORCED MERGER WHERE GREEN BUILDING AND ENERGY CONSERVATION AND EVENTUALLY WATER CONSERVATION WERE, UH, PUT INTO THE UTILITIES. 
          IT BEGS THE QUESTION NOW AS IT DID THEN, UM, HOW CAN YOU FULLY TRUST A UTILITY THAT SELLS A COMMODITY TO SAVE A COMMODITY? AND I HAVE NEVER HAD THAT QUESTION ANSWERED SATISFACTORILY SINCE 1997. 
          UM, THERE ARE SEVERAL PARTS OF THIS HISTORY THAT WILL SAVE FOR ANOTHER TIME, BUT THE POINT IS I THINK WE ARE BETTER SERVED BY HAVING SEPARATE DEPARTMENTS. 
          THE REASON THAT I HAVE NOT BROUGHT THIS UP BEFORE NOW IS ONE, BECAUSE I'VE BEEN DEALING WITH A FEW IN MONUMENTAL PROJECTS ON DIFFERENT SUBJECTS, AND THE OTHER IS BECAUSE I HAVEN'T QUITE FIGURED OUT HOW TO UNPACK THIS. 
          IT'S LIKE, OKAY, THAT WAS 1997 AND HERE WE ARE IN 2026. 
          NOW, WHAT WOULD MAKE SENSE TO BREAK OUT AND HAVE IN ITS OWN SEPARATE DEPARTMENT TODAY? I HAVE NOT FULLY ANSWERED THAT QUESTION FOR MYSELF, BUT OVER THE NEXT COUPLE THREE MONTHS, I INTEND TO TRY AND HAVE ENOUGH SPECIFICITY SO THAT I CAN MAKE AT LEAST A FIRST DRAFT PROPOSAL. 
          UM, AND I, AT THAT POINT, I'D LIKE TO PUT THIS ON THE AGENDA. 
          UH, CHAIR DAVIS, THANK YOU FOR GIVING ME THE LEEWAY TO MAKE THIS SHORT HISTORIC, UH, PREAMBLE, . 
          OKAY. 
          THANK YOU. 
          ALL RIGHT. 
          ANYTHING ELSE FOR FUTURE ADD AGENDA TOPICS? ANYTHING FROM COMMISSIONER GLASER OR KENARD? ALL RIGHT. 
          HEARING NONE, UM, I'M GOING TO ADJOURN THIS MEETING OF THE RESOURCE MANAGEMENT COMMISSION. 
          IT IS 8:37 PM EVERYONE GET HOME SAFE. 
          THANK YOU.
* This transcript was created by voice-to-text technology. The transcript has not been edited for errors or omissions, it is for reference only and is not the official minutes of the meeting.