[00:00:03]
TO BEGIN.[Call to Order]
2:06 PM.I AM CALLING THIS MEETING OF THE PUBLIC SAFETY COMMITTEE TO ORDER, UH, I AM THE CHAIR OF THE COMMITTEE COUNCIL MEMBER, JIMMY FLANAGAN.
WE HAVE A COMMITTEE MEMBER, COUNCIL MEMBER, HARPER, MADISON, UH, COUNCIL MEMBER, CASAR, AND OTHER COUNCIL MEMBERS, UH, ALTER KITCHEN, UH, POOL AND ELLIS IN ATTENDANCE SO FAR.
AND I AM TO UNDERSTAND THAT THE MAYOR PRO TEM DELI GARZA IS ON HER WAY FROM ANOTHER MEETING, A STATIONARY AT HER DESK.
I'M SURE CLICKING THROUGH FROM ONE SYSTEM TO THE NEXT.
UM, SO WE ARE HAVING A WORKSHOP TODAY.
WE POSTED ON THE COUNCIL MESSAGE BOARD TO LET THE PUBLIC KNOW WHAT THIS MEETING WOULD BE ABOUT.
[Item 1]
ARE TALKING ABOUT, UH, GENERAL ORDERS AND, UH, TACTICS FOR THE POLICE DEPARTMENT, UH, GENERALLY FOCUSED AROUND ITEM 95 FROM THE MOST RECENT COUNCIL MEETING ON JUNE 11TH.UH, AS I OFTEN DO, WHEN I AM FORTUNATE TO BE THE CHAIR, UH, JUST A QUICK TECHNOLOGY CHECK IN FOR EVERYBODY, UH, I WILL BE MUTING YOU IF YOU'RE NOT MUTED.
YOU CAN ALWAYS UNMUTE YOURSELF, UM, WHEN IT'S YOUR TURN TO SPEAK, BUT IT'S USUALLY BEST TO, TO STAY MUTED, UH, WHILE OTHERS ARE SPEAKING.
SO WE CAN MINIMIZE THE AUDIO FEEDBACK.
UH, I CAN SEE EVERYBODY ON MY SCREEN AT ONCE.
SO IF, UH, IF YOU WANT TO ADD SOMETHING TO THE CONVERSATION, YOU CAN JUST KIND OF WAVE YOUR HAND AND I WILL BE CALLING ON FOLKS, UH, TO SPEAK IN ORDER GIVEN THE NUMBER OF FOLKS IN OUR CONVERSATION.
UM, IT'S PROBABLY BEST TO FOLLOW THE COUNCIL'S NUMBER PRACTICE, WHERE YOU LET THE CHAIR CALL ON YOU TO ENGAGE, UH, THROUGH THE CONVERSATION THAT HELPS PREVENT FOLKS FROM SPEAKING OVER EACH OTHER.
UM, THIS IS A SPECIAL MEETING OF THE COMMITTEE.
WE ARE DOING THIS AS A WORKSHOP WITH, UH, MEMBERS OF THE COMMUNITY AND STAFF AT THE CITY SPECIFICALLY IN THIS CASE ARE A FEW OF OUR FRONTLINE OFFICERS WHO WILL BE ENGAGING IN THIS CONVERSATION, UNLIKE NORMAL COUNCIL COMMITTEE MEETINGS, AND CERTAINLY COUNCIL MEETINGS.
UH, THIS IS NOT A CONVERSATION DESIGNED TO BE BETWEEN COUNCIL MEMBERS.
WE WANT TO FACILITATE AND LISTEN.
THIS IS MORE OF A LISTENING EXERCISE FOR COUNCIL MEMBERS.
AND I KNOW THAT THOSE WHO ARE NOT IN THE MEETING FORMALLY ARE ALSO WATCHING AND WE'LL BE ABLE TO WATCH THE ARCHIVE OF THIS MEETING ON ATX AND.TV.
UM, SO THE POINT, THE POINT OF OUR MEETING TODAY, VERY SPECIFIC WHERE I WANT US TO STAY IS TALKING ABOUT THE POLICE TACTICS AND METHODS OUTLINED IN ITEM 95 FROM JUNE 11TH.
THIS IS NOT A CONVERSATION ABOUT WHAT TACTICS OR, OR ISSUES HAVE OCCURRED IN THE LAST MONTH.
THIS IS NOT GOING BACK AND LOOKING AT, SHOULD THAT HAVE BEEN DONE A CERTAIN WAY? WE ARE STAYING FOCUSED IN THIS CONVERSATION ON WHAT APPROPRIATE TACTICS ARE MOVING FORWARD.
AND THAT'S AN IMPORTANT DETAIL BECAUSE I WANT US TO STAY FOCUSED ON THE TYPES OF POLICY AND ORDERS AND TACTICS, AS WE SEEK TO EXPLORE, UH, AN APPROVED AND IMPROVED MODEL, UH, AND TO DO SO TODAY WITH OFFICERS IN THE CONVERSATION, UH, WE HAVE FOUR APD OFFICERS WITH US AND FOR COMMUNITY EXPERTS, UH, WHO EACH BRING THEIR OWN PERSPECTIVE AND, UH, WHO BRING A, UH, AN EXPERTISE TO THE CONVERSATION.
UM, AND AS I SAID BEFORE, YOU KNOW, COUNCIL MEMBERS WHO ARE ON THE CALL, UM, AND I SEE THE MAYOR PRO TEM HAS JOINED US.
UM, IT, IT IS ABSOLUTELY YOUR, YOUR RIGHT IN ANY COMMITTEE OR COUNCIL MEETING TO ASK QUESTIONS, BUT I WOULD ASK YOU TO, UH, DEFER ANY QUESTIONS.
YOU HAVE TO ALLOW OUR PANELISTS TO ENGAGE IN THE CONVERSATION.
I WILL BE MERELY FACILITATING AS CHAIR OF THE COMMITTEE.
UH, SO THE OTHER THING TODAY, AND THEN I'LL LET OUR PANELISTS INTRODUCE THEMSELVES.
THIS IS NOT A COMMITTEE MEETING OR A WORKSHOP WHERE WE ARE GOING TO ANSWER HARD QUESTIONS.
THAT IS NOT THE OBJECTIVE TODAY.
WHAT WE ARE LOOKING AT ARE THE HARD QUESTIONS THAT HAVE BEEN POSED BY COUNCIL ACTION IN THEIR RESOLUTION AND TO DAYLIGHT, WHERE THERE IS ALREADY AGREEMENT AND TO DAYLIGHT, WHERE THERE MIGHT BE CHALLENGES IN IMPLEMENTATION.
SO THAT THE HARD CHOICES THAT COME LATER, CHOICES THAT ARE ALWAYS MADE BY THE CHIEF OR THE MANAGER OR THE COUNSEL THAT THOSE DECISIONS CAN BE MADE IN A WELL ROUNDED WAY, HAVING ELEVATED ALL THE THOUGHTS AND CONCERNS TO THE FOREFRONT, SO THAT EVERYONE KNOWS EXACTLY WHERE WE'RE GOING AND WHAT WE'RE UP TO.
AND OF COURSE, YOU KNOW, JUST AS A LIMITATION OF TIME AND SPACE, IT WOULD BE GREAT TO HAVE 20 OFFICERS AND 20 COMMUNITY EXPERTS AT THIS CONVERSATION.
BUT I'M THANKFUL FOR THE EIGHT FOLKS WHO HAVE AGREED TO PARTICIPATE IN THIS CONVERSATION TODAY,
[00:05:01]
WHICH TO MY KNOWLEDGE IS FAIRLY UNPRECEDENTED FOR THE CITY.WE DON'T NORMALLY CONVENE MEETINGS IN THIS KIND OF WORKSHOP FASHION, BUT, UH, AS MANY OF US HAVE BEEN SAYING, UH, THE COMMON PRACTICE IS NO LONGER APPROPRIATE.
SO, UH, WITH THAT, I WANT TO INVITE OUR OFFICERS TO INTRODUCE THEMSELVES AND I WILL CALL ON YOU AND, UH, YOU KNOW, TRY TO KEEP IT BRIEF SO WE CAN GET TO THE SUBSTANCE OF OUR CONVERSATION TODAY.
SO IN CHROME AROUND, WOULD YOU LIKE TO BEGIN? YES.
UH, SERGEANT MIKE
UH, ONE OF THE SUPERVISORS FOR THE SRT TEAM, UM, BUNCH OF DIFFERENT EXPERIENCE DOING A VARIETY OF DIFFERENT THINGS IN THE DEPARTMENT OVER MANY YEARS.
MOST OF MY EXPERIENCE, UM, ON THE INVESTIGATIVE SIDE OF THE HOUSE HAS BEEN DEALING WITH ON A CRIME.
SO, UM, THAT'S WHAT I BRING TO THE TABLE, BUT WE'RE KEEPING IT SHORT.
UH, SERGEANT KIM, RYAN, UH, OFFICER VILLAREAL.
UM, 14 YEAR OFFICER, UM, WORKED PATROL FOR 10 AND A HALF YEARS.
WORKED ON HER SIDE WORK DOWNTOWN ON SIXTH STREET AND NIGHT SHIFT.
I'M CURRENTLY THE VICE PRESIDENT OF THE APA AND WORKED FULL TIME AT THE ASSOCIATION, UM, WAS A HOSTAGE NEGOTIATOR FOR, FOR A FEW YEARS.
UM, VOLUNTEERED ABOUT FIVE AND A HALF YEARS OF MY TIME, UH, AS AN SR TEAM MEMBER AS WELL.
SO I'M EXCITED TO, UH, TO BE A PART OF THE CONVERSATION AND VERY THANKFUL TO YOU, JIMMY, THAT YOU HAVE INCLUDED US IN THE CONVERSATION.
THANK YOU, OFFICER CORPORAL JOHNSON.
MARCOS JOHNSON, UH, BEEN A POLICE OFFICER FOR ABOUT 11 YEARS.
UM, EIGHT OF THAT HAS BEEN WITH THE AUSTIN POLICE DEPARTMENT, UH, CRIMINAL WORKS AND THE HENRY SECTOR, WHICH IS THE RIVERSIDE, UM, PLEASANT VALLEY AREA OF TOWN.
UM, I'VE DONE A NUMBER OF THINGS AT APD, UNFORTUNATELY FOR THREE AND A HALF YEARS PRIOR TO THIS, I WAS A DISTRICT REPRESENTATIVE, UM, AND EDWARD SECTOR, WHICH IS, UH, I BELIEVE COUNCIL MEMBER KOSSAR'S AREA OF TOWN JUST BEFORE I PROMOTED.
SO, UM, JUST A WEALTH OF KNOWLEDGE ON DIFFERENT THINGS.
I'VE DONE TACTICAL THINGS THAT I EXPERIENCED WITH, AND I'M GLAD TO BE HERE.
THANK YOU, OFFICER JACKSON, YOU HAD IT THERE FOR A SECOND.
ALRIGHT, JACKSON, UH, BEEN WITH THE AUSTIN POLICE DEPARTMENT FOR ABOUT 10 YEARS.
I'M ACTUALLY BORN AND RAISED IN AUSTIN AND I GREW UP IN EAST AUSTIN ST.
SO, UM, NOT ONLY DID I BECOME AN OFFICER TOO, TO HELP PEOPLE, BUT ALSO TO REPRESENT MY COMMUNITY.
I'VE DONE A WORK PATROL IN THE AREA WHERE I GREW UP WITH I, UM, THE METRO TECH, UM, AND WE'RE CURRENTLY WORKING AS A DISTRICT REPRESENTATIVE FOR EDWARD SECTOR.
THANK YOU, OFFICER, UH, ALSO OF NOTE COUNCIL MEMBER TOVO, WHO IS NOT IN THE MEETING AS LET ME KNOW THAT SHE IS WATCHING ON ATX.
AND JUST TO NOTE THAT, UH, ALL RIGHT, SO WE HAVE FOUR FOLKS WHO I HAVE DESCRIBED AS COMMUNITY EXPERTS, BUT, UH, WE'LL LET THEM DESCRIBE THEMSELVES.
UH, WHY DON'T WE START WITH MS. AGARWAL? CAN YOU HEAR ME? YES.
I, UH, ORGANIZE THE MEASURED HERE IN AUSTIN, WHICH IS A BLACK LAB DATA ACTIVISM, NONPROFIT, TRYING TO MOBILIZE COMMUNITIES TO SOLVE SOCIAL DISPARITIES, RIGHT.
I'M A POLICY COUNSEL AND SENIOR STAFF ATTORNEY AT THE ACLU OF TEXAS.
I HAVE, UH, SINCE IT'S NOT MY LEGAL CAREER, I'VE BEEN WORKING FOR THE ACLU FIRST IN 2007 AT THE NYC CLU.
AND NOW AT THE ACLU OF TEXAS AND IN BOTH PLACES HAVE FOCUSED ON POLICE REFORM WORK BOTH AT A POLICY LEVEL, BUT ALSO LITIGATING CASES THAT INVOLVE THESE ISSUES.
YEAH, MR. WEB INTERNATIONAL BROTHERHOOD OF ELECTRICAL WORKERS.
AND, UH, BEFORE I MOVED TO AUSTIN, ABOUT 25 YEARS AGO, I
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WASN'T IN MEDIC, SO I HAVE SOME KNOWLEDGE ABOUT IT.THANK YOU, MR. WEBB AND MS. LAUREN, CAN YOU HEAR ME? YES.
UM, MY NAME IS JENNIFER LAUREN.
I AM A PROFESSOR OF LAW AT THE UNIVERSITY OF TEXAS SCHOOL OF LAW.
I'VE TAUGHT THERE SINCE, UM, 2009.
I TEACH, UH, CRIMINAL LAW, UPPER LEVEL CRIMINAL PROCEDURE, UH, OF COURSE ON LAW ENFORCEMENT OVERSIGHT AND MY RESEARCH AND WRITING, UM, IS SORT OF GENERALLY AMONG OTHER THINGS IN THE AREA OF LEASING AND LAW ENFORCEMENT OVERSIGHT.
SO WE HAVE A PRETTY GREAT SET OF PANELISTS TODAY.
UH, LIKE I STARTED IN THE BEGINNING, WE'RE GOING TO USE ITEM 95 FROM THE, UH, JUNE 11 COUNCIL MEETING AS OUR FRAMEWORK FOR THE CONVERSATION.
UM, THERE ARE A NUMBER OF DIFFERENT TACTICS AND ORDERS THAT ARE INCLUDED IN THAT RESOLUTION.
UH, IN SOME CASES THEY ARE NOTED AS PROHIBITED AS A MATTER OF COUNCIL POLICY.
IN SOME CASES, THEY ARE NOTED TO BE LIMITED TO CERTAIN TYPES OF SITUATIONS.
UM, BUT OUR OBJECTIVE TODAY IS NOT TO, AGAIN, THAT'S A RE LITIGATE ANY PRIOR USE OF THESE TACTICS, BUT TO, TO THINK THROUGH, UH, AND TO HEAR FROM OFFICERS WHEN THEY HAVE FELT THOSE TACTICS WERE USEFUL IN THOSE SITUATIONS TO HEAR FROM OUR COMMUNITY EXPERTS, UH, WHAT THEY'VE SEEN IN THEIR OWN RESEARCH OR IN OTHER COMMUNITIES.
UM, AND ULTIMATELY, LIKE I SAID, WE'RE NOT GOING TO COME TO A FINAL CONCLUSION.
THE ADOPTED RESOLUTION IS ULTIMATELY THE POLICY OF THE COUNCIL, BUT AS IS ALWAYS THE CASE, THE COUNCIL PASSES RESOLUTIONS AND THEN THE MANAGER HAS TO IMPLEMENT THEM.
SO WE'RE TRYING TO GET TO THE HEART OF THE MATTER OF HOW THESE IMPLEMENTING PROCEDURES MIGHT BE CHALLENGED IN THE FUTURE.
SO TO BEGIN, LET'S START JUST FROM THE TOP.
UH, NUMBER ONE ON THAT ITEM IS USE OF TEAR GAS.
UH, SERGEANT
AS FAR AS USING IT, I'M NOT GETTING YOUR AUDIO MIKE PUT YOU'RE NOT MUTED, SO I'M NOT SURE.
CAN YOU HEAR ME NOW? NO, REALLY? JIMMY, I HIRE HIM.
I CAN, MY HEADPHONES AREN'T WORKING.
WE'RE GOING TO PIVOT BACK TO THE OTHER, THE OTHER TOOL.
THIS IS AWESOME THAT IT'S HAPPENING AT JIMMY, BY THE WAY.
CAN ANYBODY HEAR ME? WE GOT YA.
CAN YOU HEAR ME JIMMY HERE? ANYBODY ELSE? GOOD.
CAN Y'ALL HEAR ME, JEREMY, CAN YOU HEAR ME? I THINK THE REST OF US CAN HEAR YOU, BUT BY A COUNCIL MEMBER PLAYING AGAIN AND BECAUSE HOW ON EARTH AM I? HOLD ON, HOLD ON, HOLD ON.
IS IT WHEN YOU SPEAK, DO YOU WANT TO PUT IN THE CHICKEN? NOTHING FOR YOU THEN? AREN'T YOU THE VICE CHAIR? YEAH.
I WANT TO YOU GO AHEAD AND LEAVE THE MEETING FOR A MOMENT.
UH, SO IN REGARDS TO THE CS, UM, OR, OR TEAR GAS AS IT'S COMMONLY, UH, USED ARE NOMADS, SNOW, AS FAR AS SRT, UH, ALL OF US HAVE BEEN EXPOSED TO IT.
ALL OF US HAVE BEEN TRAINED ON HOW TO USE IT.
UM, AND WHEN DO YOU USE IT? UM, SO, SO HOW TO ANSWER YOUR QUESTION ONE WAY OR WOULD BE OCCASIONS THAT WE WOULD USE IT IN ONE.
SO IF WE NEED TO CLEAR A LARGE AREA, UM, YOU GOTTA CONSIDER, HOW AM I GOING? LIKE, WHAT WE HAD, WHAT WE WERE FACED WITH WAS THE SHUTDOWN OF 35.
HOW, HOW ARE WE GOING TO GET PEOPLE OFF OF 35? BECAUSE THAT ARTERY, UM, CAN'T STAY SHUT DOWN.
IF THE DECISION IS MADE THAT ARTERY CAN'T STAY SHUT DOWN BECAUSE IT'S A MAJOR ARTERY FOR THE CITY OF AUSTIN, WHAT ARE OUR OPTIONS? UM, WE COULD PHYSICALLY TRY
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TO REMOVE PEOPLE THAT TAKES A BUNCH, QUITE A BIT MORE RESOURCES THAN WHAT WE WOULD HAVE AVAILABLE TO US.UH, FIRST OFF, SECONDLY, ANYTIME WE'RE USING PHYSICAL FORCE AGAINST SOMEBODY ELSE, THERE IS ALWAYS THE POTENTIAL THAT THE OTHER INDIVIDUAL IS GOING TO GET HURT AND, OR THE OFFICERS ARE GOING TO GET HURT AS WELL.
THAT, THAT IS KIND OF THE LAST THING THAT WE WISH TO DO.
SO WE, BEFORE WE EVER DEPLOY CS GAS, UM, WE GIVE NUMEROUS WARNINGS THAT IT'S GOING TO BE DEPLOYED.
UM, THE REASON FOR THAT QUITE FRANKLY, IS, IS HOPEFULLY PEOPLE WOULD SAY, I DON'T WANT TO DEAL WITH THAT.
I AM GOING TO LEAVE AND GET OUT OF HERE BEFORE THIS GETS DEPLOYED.
UM, WHICH IF THAT WORKS, THEN THAT SOLVES THE ISSUE, RIGHT? WE CLEAR THE AREA, NOBODY HAS TO DOESN'T HAVE TO BE DEPLOYED.
NOBODY GETS FAR THE LONGTERM EFFECT OF SOMEBODY BEING EXPOSED TO TEAR GAS.
THERE IS ALWAYS A POTENTIAL THAT SOMEBODY WITH A BREATHING PROBLEM, UH, COULD BE EXASPERATED BY THE USE OF TEAR GAS.
THAT'S ALWAYS THE POSSIBILITY.
HOWEVER, THE LONG TERM SIDE EFFECTS OF BEING EXPOSED TO CS GAS IS VERY MINIMAL.
IT CLEARS AWAY PRETTY QUICKLY.
UM, IT IS UNCOMFORTABLE, BUT FOR THE VAST MAJORITY OF INDIVIDUALS, IT IS NOT SOMETHING THAT CAUSES ANY LONGTERM DAMAGE TO THEM IN ANY, IN ANY DIFFERENT WAYS.
SO, UM, WHEN WE ARE FACED WITH A SITUATION WHERE WE HAVE TO CLEAR A LARGE AREA, UM, AS QUICKLY AS POSSIBLE WITH THE LEAST POSSIBLE AMOUNT OF DAMAGE DONE TO ANYBODY, CS GAS WOULD BE AN OPTION FOR US, UM, MOVING FORWARD.
SO, UM, WHEN WE USUALLY DEPLOY IT BEFORE WE EVER DEPLOY IT, UM, IF YOU WANT ME TO GO THROUGH KIND OF A SEQUENCE OF HOW THAT WORKS, I CAN, I CAN GO THROUGH THAT.
UH, WE DEPLOYED IT ONCE ON SUNDAY, UH, THE, THE VERY FIRST SUNDAY AND GOOD EFFECT OF THAT IN THE FUTURE WHEN 35, WHEN PEOPLE WANTED TO SHUT DOWN 35 AND THEY DID SHUT DOWN 35, WE DIDN'T HAVE TO DEPLOY IT AGAIN.
SIMPLY THE THREAT OF US DEPLOYING IT WAS ENOUGH TO MOVE THE CROP.
UM, SO THERE'S SOME OTHER ADVANTAGES TO THAT, UH, MOVING FORWARD.
SO THOSE ARE SOME OF THE PROS.
UM, I, YOU KNOW, I'M TALKING VERY, VERY GENERIC, UM, AND MOVING FORWARD, BUT THAT'S ACTUALLY ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WE DON'T WANT TO DO UNLESS IT'S ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY.
WE DID NOT DEPLOY IT DURING THESE DEMONSTRATIONS.
UM, UNTIL AMPLE WARNING WAS GIVEN, UH, ON NUMEROUS OCCASIONS TELLING INDIVIDUALS WHAT WOULD HAPPEN BEFORE IT WAS EVER ACTUALLY DEPLOYED.
WE DON'T DO THIS WITHOUT GIVING FAIR WARNING, IF, IF AT ALL POSSIBLE.
AND WE, WE CERTAINLY HAD THE ABILITY TO DO THAT ON SUNDAY.
SO I THANK YOU ALL FOR, FOR, CAN EVERYBODY HEAR ME NOW? WAVE, IF YOU CAN HEAR ME BECAUSE I CAN HEAR YOU ALL AGAIN, THANKFULLY.
UH, SERGEANT CAROLINE AND MY STAFF, LET ME KNOW WHAT YOU WERE SAYING, THE FEW MOMENTS THAT I WAS AWAY.
THANK YOU FOR TAKING OVER IT A QUICK, QUICK BULLET.
UM, SO IF I'M UNDERSTANDING CORRECTLY THAT THERE'S KIND OF A SEQUENCE OF EVENTS OF WARNING AND KIND OF NOTIFICATION OF A CROWD BEFORE THAT TACTIC IS USED.
AND, AND AGAIN, I'M NOT SO CONCERNED TODAY ABOUT TALKING ABOUT WHY IT MAY HAVE BEEN USED BEFORE, BUT JUST THE KIND OF, WHAT IS THE SEQUENCE THAT, THAT A CERTAIN TACTIC MIGHT BE USED.
THEN IT SOUNDS LIKE THERE'S A SEPARATE QUESTION SPECIFICALLY ABOUT BLOCKING
AND AT WHAT POINT DOES, IS OUR POLICY THAT THAT SHOULD BE ESCALATED IN ORDER TO CLEAR THE ROADWAY, OR WHAT POINT ARE WE COMFORTABLE WITH PROTESTS SHUTTING DOWN IN ARTERIAL ROAD? AND THAT'S NOT NECESSARILY A CONVERSATION WE'RE GOING TO GET INTO TODAY.
THERE'S KIND OF TWO COMPONENTS TO THAT.
UM, ANY OF OUR, OUR, UH, UH, OTHER FOLKS WANT TO WEIGH IN ON KIND OF THAT SEQUENCE OF STEPS THAT SERGEANT COMING LATER, WELL, YOU SHUT THEM DOWN.
[00:20:01]
WHAT I WANTED TO DO TODAY IS IS THERE ONE THING THAT I HAVE LEARNED ABOUT DOING CROWD MANAGEMENT FOR AS LONG AS I'VE DONE IT IS JUST AS IN SO MUCH THAT WE HAVE TO DO IN LAW ENFORCEMENT, YOU HAVE TO HAVE A WIDE TOOL BELT, AND MAYBE THAT'S NOT THE RIGHT ANALOGY.SOME PEOPLE MAY NOT WANT TO USE THAT WORD, BUT WE HAVE TO HAVE MULTIPLE OPTIONS OF WHAT TO DO.
THERE IS NOT, LIFE IS COMPLICATED.
EVERY SITUATION THAT WE DEAL WITH IS NEVER ALL THE SAME.
SO YOU NEED TO HAVE A VARIETY OF OPTIONS AT YOUR DISPOSAL.
IF THE OTHER THINGS THAT YOU HAVE TRIED HAVE NOT, WE WOULD LOVE TO COME UP ON 35 OR WHATEVER, AND JUST EXPLAIN TO PEOPLE WE NEED Y'ALL TO MOVE BECAUSE OF X.
UM, AND HERE'S THE REASONS WHY YOU'RE, YOU'RE, YOU'RE COMMITTING A CRIMINAL ACT.
WE NEED YOU TO MOVE AND PEOPLE COMPLY WITH THAT.
BUT IF THEY, YOU KNOW, SOMETIMES THEY DO QUITE OFTEN, THEY DON'T, IF THEY DON'T THEN WHAT ARE THE VARIOUS DIFFERENT LEVELS THAT WE HAVE THAT ARE AVAILABLE TO US AND, AND SEE US JUST HAPPENS TO HAVE BEEN, UM, ONE OF THE OPTIONS THAT WE HAD, WHICH I KNOW IT DOESN'T LOOK GOOD, BUT AS FAR AS A LASTING LONGTERM EFFECT ON AN INDIVIDUAL COMPARED TO IMPACTING THEM WITH OTHER MUNITIONS OR OTHER THING ELSE, IT IS, IT IS MUCH LESS, UM, CREATING IT VERY, IT WILL NOT CREATE FOR THE MAJORITY OF INDIVIDUALS, A LASTING INJURY.
WE, WE DON'T WANT TO DO THAT IF, IF AT ALL POSSIBLE.
UM, SO THERE WAS A TON OF EVIDENCE AND DATA OUT THERE THAT SUPPORTS THE FACT THAT TIER THAT IS LONGTERM, UM, HARMFUL LONGTERM, UM, TO PEOPLE.
IT CAN CAUSE PEOPLE TO BE MORE SUSCEPTIBLE TO THE FLU PNEUMONIA AND OTHER ILLNESSES.
UM, SO CS BASICALLY ACTIVATES A SPECIFIC PAIN RECEPTOR IN YOUR BODY.
UM, IT'S THE SAME ONE THAT'S CHITTERING WHEN YOU EAT WASABI, EXCEPT CS IS LIKE A HUNDRED TIMES, A HUNDRED THOUSAND TIMES MORE STRONG THAN WHAT, WHEN YOU EAT, WHAT SABI, UM, AND WHAT HAPPENS IS IT DEGRADES THE MUCUS MEMBRANES IN YOUR CELLS, UM, WHICH LEAVES YOU MORE SUSCEPTIBLE TO CATCHING DISEASES, ESPECIALLY GIVEN THE CURRENT PANDEMIC.
UM, LIKE WE PERSONALLY THINK THAT TRIGGERS SHOULD BE BANNED BECAUSE IT LEAVES PEOPLE MORE AND MORE AT RISK OF, UH, CONTRACTING CURRENT VIRUS.
SO I THINK THERE'S TWO PIECES OF THAT.
AND THEN I'LL COME TO YOU MS. BEN.
SO I THINK THERE'S, IF I'M HEARING WHAT YOU'RE SAYING CORRECTLY, THERE'S KIND OF TACTICS UNDER A PANDEMIC, BUT THEN ALSO GENERALLY TACTICS.
AND WHAT I'M HEARING YOU SAY IS OVERALL, IS THAT IN NO CASES, DOES IT, DOES IT WORK WELL, ESPECIALLY NOT DURING A PANDEMIC, BUT GENERALLY IT STILL CAUSES THIS OTHER ISSUE THAT MAY, THAT THERE'S DATA SHOWING A LONGTERM EVENT.
IT CAN LEAD TO INCREASED SUSCEPTIBILITY FOR ANY RESPIRATORY DISEASE, BUT ESPECIALLY GIVEN THE CURRENT SITUATION, CORONAVIRUS IS THE ONE THAT WE'RE MOST CONCERNED WITH.
UM, AND I, YOU KNOW, WE'RE, WE'RE MAKING DECISIONS BOTH FOR PANDEMIC TIME AND FOR LONG TIME.
SO WE WANT TO MAKE SURE WE'RE THINKING ABOUT BOTH HALVES OF THAT AND THE SPANIEL.
SO I THINK ONE THING THAT, THAT ALSO NEEDS TO BE RECOGNIZED COGNIZANT OF THE FACT THAT THERE IS A RANGE OF CROWD CONTROL WEAPONS THAT CAN BE USED HERE, GAS, OR HOWEVER, WE WANT TO REFER TO A CHEMICAL IRRITANT RIGHT BY ITS VERY, IS INDISCRIMINATE SUCH THAT IT WILL IMPACT SMALL, LIKE YOUNG PEOPLE, OLD PEOPLE, PEOPLE WHO ARE PEACEABLE PEACE, PEOPLE WHO MIGHT BE MORE VOCAL, RIGHT.
THERE IS NO WAY TO TAILOR IT SO THAT IT IS TARGETED, UM, UNDERSTANDING THAT IT STILL MIGHT BE ON THE LESS LETHAL, HARMFUL SCALE ON THE LESTER END, THOSE STILL HARMFUL AS, AS, UH, MY CO-PANELISTS HAVE POINTED OUT.
IT ALSO HARMS EVERYONE THAT IT TOUCHES IRRESPECTIVE OF WHAT THAT INDIVIDUAL IS DOING AT THAT MOMENT.
AND SERGEANT CARMEN, I THINK YOU MENTIONED, UM, THE, THE PARTICULAR BEHAVIOR, RIGHT? YOU WERE ENGAGED THE PART OF THE NOTICE YOU WERE ENGAGED IN UNLAWFUL ACTIVITY.
I THINK PART OF THE CONCERN THAT COMES FROM, AND YOU'RE, YOU'RE GOING TO HEAR ME SAY THIS A LOT.
I THINK WITH CROWD CONTROL WEAPONS, RIGHT? UM, THAT NOT EVERYONE IN THE CROWD IN, IN ANY GIVEN SITUATION WILL NECESSARILY BE ENGAGED IN UNLAWFUL CONDUCT AND THAT'S, THERE WOULDN'T BE ANY BASIS TO USE ANY LEVEL OF FORCE AGAINST A PERSON
[00:25:01]
IN THOSE SITUATIONS.SO, SO MY RESPONSE BACK TO THAT IS, UM, YOU, YOU, YOU ARE A HUNDRED, YOU COULD BE A HUNDRED PERCENT CORRECT.
WHAT WE WERE FACING WAS PEOPLE BLOCKING A MAJOR INTERSTATE.
WE'D GIVE THEM THEM WARNING AFTER WARNING TO REMOVE THEMSELVES FROM THAT LOCATION.
SO, SO OUR CHOICE IS EITHER WE DON'T DO ANYTHING AND LET THEM HAVE IT FOR HOWEVER LONG, WHICH IS AN OPTION.
BUT, BUT AT WHAT POINT, WHAT ARE THOSE PARAMETERS WE SET UP? ARE WE GOING TO ALLOW THEM TO HAVE 35 SHUTDOWN? LIKE WHAT HAPPENED IN SEATTLE FOR, FOR FIVE WEEKS? CAN, CAN THIS CITY SUSTAIN THAT OR NOT? AND, AND WE CLEARLY PUT PEOPLE ON NOTICE, YOU'RE COMMITTING AN AWFUL ACT.
AND WE HAVE BEEN ABLE EARLIER WITH SMALLER CROWDS THAT DAY TO MOVE THEM BY ADVISING THEM OF THAT.
AND THEY MOVED THAT PARTICULAR INCIDENT.
WE HAD BEEN ADVISING HIM AND IT WASN'T RESOLVING THE SITUATION.
SO I KNOW THAT WE'RE ALL LOOKING FOR WHATEVER OPTIONS WOULD BE AVAILABLE TO US, UH, MOVING FORWARD.
BUT, BUT WE STILL HAVE TO HAVE SOME OPTIONS, SOMETHING BECAUSE SOMETIMES WE'RE GOING TO BE FACED WITH ANOTHER SIMILAR SITUATION LIKE THIS AND WHAT WOULD BE THE MORE APPROPRIATE THING MOVING FORWARD, UM, TO, TO ACCOMPLISH THE GOAL AND THE MISSION.
AND I THINK THAT'S, THAT'S THE IMPORTANT PART TO LEAN INTO IN TODAY'S CONVERSATION, SERGEANT, AND I'M GLAD THAT YOU, YOU ENDED ON THAT.
UM, AND PART OF THE REASON WHY WE'VE ASKED YOU AND, AND, AND THE OTHER OFFICERS TO PARTICIPATE IS THAT, THAT THE, THE USE OF THESE TACTICS PRIOR WAS POLICY.
SO IT'S, THIS IS NOT A KIND OF, UH, UH, GOING BACK AND SAYING, YOU SHOULD HAVE DONE SOMETHING DIFFERENT.
THAT'S A DIFFERENT CONVERSATION FOR A DIFFERENT DAY.
THIS IS REALLY ABOUT, ALL RIGHT.
WELL, IF WE'RE NOW SAYING AS A COMMUNITY, THAT'S NOT A TACTICALLY, LIKE WHAT ARE THE OPTIONS BEFORE US IN A CROWD CONTROL, YOU KNOW, SITUATION, CRISIS MOMENTS, WHATEVER THE WORD IS THAT YOU WANT TO USE.
THE OTHER THING THAT I WANT TO JUST KNOW, AND I THINK IT CAN COLOR OUR CONVERSATION TODAY.
IT SEEMS THAT THE TACTICS, IT SEEMS LIKE THE SITUATION THAT OFFICERS ARE PLACED IN THE CROWD CONTROL SITUATION IS DIFFERENT.
WHEN THE CROWD IS SPECIFICALLY PROTESTING POLICE, IT'S A VERY DIFFERENT DYNAMIC THAN JUST ABOUT ANY OTHER KIND OF PROTEST, BECAUSE YOU THEN BECOME, YOU'RE NOT JUST THERE TO, TO, TO PROTECT YOU'RE.
NOW PART OF THE THING, AND MAYBE PART OF WHAT WE HAVE TO TALK ABOUT IS TACTICS THAT ARE DIFFERENT WHEN THAT'S THE SAFE AND THAT'S THE SITUATION.
UM, MAYBE ANOTHER CONVERSATION FOR ANOTHER DAY, MISS LAUREN.
UM, I WON'T, UH, REPEAT THE POINTS ON THE PARTICULAR HARMS OF, OF, UM, CS THAT WERE ALREADY MADE, BUT I WANTED TO RAISE A SORT OF DIFFERENT LINE OF THOUGHTS BECAUSE, UM, COUNCILMAN FLANAGAN, YOU, YOU HAD SAID THAT ONE OF THE PURPOSES OF TODAY IS TO SORT OF PUT OUT WHAT THE QUESTIONS ARE THAT ARE RAISED BY, UM, THE, THE ITEMS IN THE RESOLUTION.
AND I THINK THAT THE TYPES OF QUESTIONS THAT I THINK ABOUT ON THIS ISSUE INCLUDE NOT JUST SORT OF TEAR GAS IN OR OUT, BUT A KIND OF, UM, BROADER FRAMING, BUT ACTUALLY EVERYONE HAS, HAS POINTED TO IN THINKING ABOUT WHAT ARE THE HARMS OF POLICING IN THIS PARTICULAR WAY, AND UNDER WHAT CONDITIONS ARE WE AS A COMMUNITY WILLING TO AUTHORIZE THOSE HARMS. RIGHT.
UM, AND, UH, AND THAT'S NOT A CONVERSATION THAT, UH, COMMUNITIES HAVE VERY OFTEN MAYBE EVEN REALLY UP TIL NOW, EVER IN POLICING, UH, WHICH I THINK IS ONE OF THE, IT'S ONE OF THE ODDITIES OF THE FIELD.
IT'S ONE OF THE COMPLICATING THINGS ABOUT THE JOB.
UM, AND SO I THINK, YOU KNOW, A BIG PICTURE WAY OF, OF FRAMING.
THIS IS REALLY GIVEN THE HARMS THAT WILL BE AS, AS, UH, AS MS YON SAID, SORT OF INDISCRIMINATELY, UH, BORN BY THE DEPLOYMENT OF THIS.
AND IT IS RELEVANT TO SAY, AND NOW GIVEN THE STATE OF THE PANDEMIC RIGHT IN AUSTIN, UM, ARE THERE ONE, ARE THERE ANY CONDITIONS UNDER WHICH WE THINK AS A COMMUNITY THAT THERE'S SUFFICIENT ADVANTAGES TO, TO BEAR THOSE HARMS? UM, MAYBE THE ANSWER IS NO, MAYBE THE ANSWER IS, UM, WELL, THERE ARE SOME, THERE ARE A FEW, BUT WE DON'T THINK THAT OPENING UP
[00:30:01]
A MAJOR ARTERY IS ONE OF THOSE BENEFITS THAT WOULD, UH, THAT WOULD SORT OF OUTWEIGH THE HARMS GENERATED.WERE ANOTHER WAY OF THINKING ABOUT THE QUESTION IS, UM, WHO DECIDES AND, UH, THROUGH WHAT PROCESS DOES ONE DECIDE WHEN THE BENEFITS ARE OUTWEIGHING THE HARM, UH, SERGEANT KREMLIN WALKED US THROUGH A DECISION MAKING PROCESS.
UM, AND, AND THAT'S, THAT'S INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT THINKING ABOUT A DIFFERENT DESIGN FOR THAT DECISION MAKING PROCESS IS ALSO SOMETHING THAT SHOULD BE ON THE TABLE.
RIGHT? YOU THINK ABOUT A PLACE LIKE LOUISVILLE, FOR EXAMPLE, WHICH HAS GONE TO, UM, CHIEF APPROVAL ONLY FOR THIS, RIGHT.
UM, MAYBE SOMETHING LIKE THAT IS A WAY OF SAYING THIS HAS TO BE SOMETHING THAT'S DONE ONLY WITH THE HIGHEST LEVEL OF DELIBERATION THAT IT WOULDN'T BE DONE BASED ON THE, UH, THE SAY, SO OF SOMEONE SORT OF IN THE HEAT OF THE MOMENT IN THE FIELD.
UM, BUT WE CAN SAY THAT WITH CERTAINTY, EVEN THOUGH WE CAN'T SAY WITH CERTAINTY THAT IT'S NEVER EVER GETS USED.
SO THIS IS NOT TO SAY THAT I THINK THE RIGHT ANSWER IS, UM, NOT A COMPLETE BAN ON, ONTO YOUR GAS.
BUT IT'S RATHER JUST TO SAY IN DEBATING THE QUESTION OF THE USE OF THIS TOOL, HAVING THE DEBATE IN A WAY THAT SAYS, WE NEED TO TAKE A TON OF THE HARMS AND THINK ABOUT WHAT BENEFITS WE'RE GETTING.
WE'RE CERTAINLY GETTING SOME, ARE THERE ENOUGH? ARE THERE ENOUGH EVER, AND ARE THERE ENOUGH IN THIS PARTICULAR INSTANCE? OKAY.
OFFICER VILLAREAL, DID YOU HAVE YOUR HAND UP? YES, SIR.
I'M GLAD MS. LAUREN BROUGHT THOSE, THOSE IDEAS UP BECAUSE I, I AGREE.
UM, I'VE, I'VE SPENT 10 AND A HALF YEARS OF, OF MY CAREER HERE, UM, IN A PATROL CAPACITY AND, AND IT'S ALWAYS, IT'S ALWAYS CONCERNED ME WHEN YOU HAVE, UM, RULES THAT ARE, YOU KNOW, YOU'RE ALWAYS GOING TO DO THIS, OR YOU CAN NEVER, NEVER DO THAT.
UM, BECAUSE, UH, KINDA LIKE MIKE, UH, ALLUDED TO EARLIER, LIKE THERE'S, THERE'S SO MANY DIFFERENT SCENARIOS THAT WE SEND OUR OFFICERS INTO EVERY DAY.
AND, AND IT'S, YOU KNOW, I THINK AFTER DOING A JOB ABOUT FIVE YEARS, I FELT REALLY, REALLY COMFORTABLE OF SAYING, OKAY, I'VE GOT THIS SET OF TOOLS AND I'M GOING TO SHOW UP TO A CALL WITH A BUNCH OF STRANGERS AND THEN TRY TO BEST USE MY SKILLS AND MY TOOLS TO GET THE SAFEST RESOLUTION FOR EVERYBODY.
AND SO, UM, I MISS MISS LAUREN, I COMPLETELY AGREE WITH YOU THAT, THAT, UH, AND I'M HAPPY THAT IF THE CONVERSATION DOESN'T HAPPEN TODAY, THAT IT HAPPENS ALL THE TIME TO SAY, YOU KNOW, WE KNOW THE RISKS AND WE KNOW, UM, MAYBE WE'RE REWARDS IS NOT THE RIGHT WORD, BUT WE, WE KNOW, UM, YOU KNOW, KIND OF, WE KNOW THE WHY THAT, THAT POLICING HAS GONE TO USE SOME OF THESE TOOLS.
AND THEN WHAT'S THAT BALANCE LOOK LIKE, WHAT, WHAT IS THAT? AND, AND THE BALANCE IN AUSTIN MIGHT BE DIFFERENT THAN I GUARANTEE YOU, THE BALANCE IN AUSTIN IS DIFFERENT THAN THE BALANCE IN HOUSTON OR THE BALANCE IN SAN ANTONIO OR IN, OR IN DALLAS.
WE JUST, YOU KNOW, I THINK ESPECIALLY AS, AS, AS A, AS A PLACE ASSOCIATION LEADER, UM, YOU KNOW, I WANT THE FOLKS THAT WE REPRESENT TO JUST TO KNOW, LIKE, WHAT'S, WHAT'S EXPECTED OF YOU VERY, VERY CLEAR, VERY CONCISE, UM, THAT WAY OUR FOLKS CAN GO OUT AND DO THE JOB AND DO IT TO THE HIGH LEVEL THAT I KNOW THAT OUR PEOPLE CAN DO IT, UM, SPECIFICALLY, UH, IN, IN REGARDS TO THE USE OF, OF CHEMICAL IRRITANTS OR CHEMICAL AGENTS.
UM, YOU KNOW, I THINK WHAT WHAT'S FRESH IN EVERYONE'S MIND BECAUSE, BECAUSE IT, IT PROBABLY HADN'T HAPPENED IN MANY, MANY YEARS, UM, THAT WE SAW THAT FIRST WEEKEND OF THE PROTESTS.
UM, I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT FOR FOLKS TO REMEMBER THAT THAT'S A IT'S, UM, IT'S ALMOST AN OUTLIER IN THE USE OF, UH, CS, UM, AND IT PROBABLY GETS FAR MORE USE, UM, IN BARRICADED SUBJECT SITUATIONS, UM, IN OPEN AIR BARRICADED SUBJECT SITUATIONS, RIGHT? SO BARRICADED SUBJECTS WHERE, YOU KNOW, WE HAVE SOMEONE TRULY BARRICADED INSIDE A STRUCTURE AND FOR WHATEVER REASON, UM, OUR OFFICERS ARE GONNA EVENTUALLY EITHER GO IN AND GET THAT PERSON, UM, OR WE'RE GONNA COAX THEM OUT OF, OUT OF THAT STRUCTURE.
UM, YOU KNOW, WE DEAL WITH SITUATIONS WHERE WE HAVE PEOPLE, UM, YOU KNOW, WE CALL THEM OPEN AIR BARRICADES WHERE PEOPLE ARE ARMED OR SAY THEY'RE ARMED OR OUT IN THE OPEN, BUT WE'RE GOING TO TREAT THEM LIKE THEY'RE BARRICADED BECAUSE WE DON'T WANNA, WE DON'T WANT TO FORCE A DEADLY FORCE SITUATION BY, BY PRESSING INTO TOO CLOSELY OR TOO QUICKLY.
[00:35:01]
AND YEAH.AND SO YOU ALMOST TREAT IT LIKE THAT.
UM, LIKE I SAID EARLIER, I WAS AN AWESOME NEGOTIATOR FOR, FOR SEVERAL YEARS ON OUR CRITICAL INCIDENT NEGOTIATION TEAM, UM, NEGOTIATED WITH A GUY THAT WAS CLAIMING TO BE ARMED, UM, ONE NIGHT AND, YOU KNOW, UM, LUCKILY HAD A, UH, I GUESS I CAN'T CALL IT A PEACEFUL RESOLUTION CAUSE, CAUSE HE ENDED UP GETTING SHOT, BUT HE LIVED, HE STARTED LIVE AND, YOU KNOW, I THINK IT WAS A, UH, A SITUATION WHERE YOUR DAD WAS DEALING WITH SOME VERY SERIOUS MENTAL ILLNESS ISSUES, BUT, UM, YOU KNOW, SITUATIONS LIKE THAT, WE HAVE PEOPLE THAT ARE, THAT ARE OUT IN THE OPEN THAT WE'RE GONNA, WE'RE GONNA, WE'RE GOING TO RESPONSIBLE.
I'M JUST GONNA LEAVE PEOPLE IN THIS CRISIS SITUATION THAT ARE, THAT ARE CLAIMING THAT THEY WANT TO HURT THEMSELVES OR HURT OTHER PEOPLE.
UM, WE'RE NOT JUST GOING LEAVE THEM.
WE DON'T HAVE THE ABILITY TO JUST LEAVE THEM OUT IN, WITHIN THE COMMUNITY, BUT AS WE APPROACH THOSE PEOPLE, WHAT IS IT, DO THOSE, DOES THE BENEFIT OF POTENTIALLY TAKING A PERSON INTO CUSTODY WITHOUT HAVING TO USE LETHAL LETHAL FORCE? UM, DOES THAT OUTWEIGH A POTENTIAL LONGTERM? UH, YOU KNOW, HEY, I KNOW THIS IS GOING TO BREAK DOWN YOUR WEEK HAS BEEN BRIGHT, YOU KNOW, AND, AND KINDA LIKE MISS LAUREN SAID THAT THAT MIGHT, WE MIGHT AS A, AS AN ORGANIZATION AND AS A COMMUNITY SAY, OKAY, WE WOULD RATHER BREAK DOWN YOUR MUCOUS MEMBRANE, THEN THERE'D BE FORCED INTO A DEADLY FORCE SITUATION.
SO, UM, I KNOW WE'RE KIND OF HYPER FOCUSED ON USING IT IN CROWD CONTROL SITUATIONS, BUT, BUT I JUST WANT EVERYONE TO RECOGNIZE THERE'S, YOU KNOW, THERE'S LOTS OF, LOTS OF OTHER, UM, SITUATIONS WHERE, UM, THE USE OF CHEMICAL IRRITANTS ARE USED FAR MORE FREQUENTLY THAN WHAT WE SAW ON THE HIGHWAY.
I THINK THAT'S A VERY GOOD POINT, UH, OFFICER, BECAUSE THE RESOLUTION, UM, DOES NOT MAKE THAT DISTINCTION, BUT IT IS, IT IS A VALUABLE DISTINCTION TO CONTEMPLATE.
UM, AGAIN, WE'RE NOT GOING TO RE WE'RE NOT GOING TO PULL BACK FROM ADOPTED COUNCIL RESOLUTIONS TODAY.
THAT'S NOT THE POINT OF THIS CONVERSATION, BUT THAT THESE CONVERSATIONS COULD BE COMPLICATED AND SHOWING THE PUBLIC THAT WE'RE EXPLORING THOSE COMPLICATIONS IS THE POINT.
SO, UM, ADDING, ADDING THAT PERSPECTIVE, UM, THE, UH, UH, CORPORAL JOHNSON OFFICER JACKSON, JUMP IN AT ANY TIME, UM, YOU KNOW, KNOW THAT, THAT CHAINED UP, I WILL CALL ON YOU IF YOU WANT TO ADD TO ANYTHING THAT, UH, SERGEANT OR, OR OFFICER DAD, UM, ANY, ANY LAST WORDS ON THIS BEFORE WE MOVE ON TO MORE USE OF FORCE TACTICS.
UM, SO IN THE NEXT SECTION ON THE RESOLUTION, IT TALKS ABOUT USE OF DEADLY FORCE AND IT DEFINES, UM, LIMITED TO SITUATIONS NECESSARY FOR SELF DEFENSE DEFENSE OF OTHERS AGAINST THE DEADLY THREAT OR THREAT A SERIOUS BODILY INJURIES AND NO OTHER REASONABLE ALTERNATIVES EXIST.
THAT SEEMS LIKE A VERY BROAD OPEN TO INTERPRETATION STATEMENT.
HOW, HOW, IF ANY OF THE OFFICERS WANT TO WEIGH IN, HOW DO YOU FEEL YOU'VE BEEN TRAINED ON USE OF FORCE THIS USE OF DEADLY FORCE MOMENTS IN YOUR CURRENT TRAINING CORPORATE? UM, I WOULD SAY THAT, UM, WE'RE ALL IN AGREEANCE, WHETHER YOU'RE A POLICE OFFICER OR NOT POLICE OFFICER, AND THIS IS WE STATE VERSUS CONNOR SPECIFICALLY OUTLINES, WHICH IS A SUPREME COURT CASE LAW THAT OUTLINES, UH, HOW THE DEADLY FORCES USED, UM, IN THAT SECTION THAT I WROTE HERE ABOUT ANYONE'S LAYING, UM, ON FOOT OR IN A VEHICLE THAT DOESN'T POSE A SIGNIFICANT RISK OF DEATH OR SERIOUS BODILY INJURY TO THE OFFICERS OR ANYONE ELSE.
UM, WE'RE ALL IN GRANTS WITH THAT.
UM, OUR, OUR USE OF FORCE POLICIES DICTATE HOW OUR FORCE IS USED AND GIVES US, UH, SITUATIONS ON WHEN IT'S USED AND HOW WE CAN USE THAT, THAT FORCE.
SO IT'S IMPORTANT TO RECOGNIZE THE AUSTIN POLICE DEPARTMENT, UH, DOES HAVE GUIDELINES IN PLACE FOR THAT.
AND I THINK WE'RE ALL IN AGREEMENT WITH THAT BEING THERE, UH, THAT IT SHOULD ONLY BE USED IN THOSE SPECIFIC SITUATIONS, OFFICER JACKSON.
UM, I THINK THAT THE ACADEMY ALSO DOES A REALLY GREAT JOB AT, UH, YOU KNOW, EDUCATING US AND SHOWING US, OBVIOUSLY WE ARE BEING TRAINED FOR WORST CASE SCENARIO.
SO THEY TRY TO PUT US THROUGH DIFFERENT SITUATIONS, UM, TO TRY TO UNDERSTAND WHAT WOULD HAPPEN OR WHAT KIND OF SITUATIONS WOULD DICTATE.
UM, OBVIOUSLY ON TOP OF THE EXPERIENCE, YOU WILL GET AS AN OFFICER, AS YOU ACTUALLY GO AND START WORKING THE STREETS.
I THINK THAT'S INTERESTING THE WAY
[00:40:01]
THAT YOU FRAMED THAT OFFICER ABOUT A WORST CASE SCENARIO, AND THERE'S A SEPARATE CONVERSATION HAPPENING AS CITIZEN REVIEW OF TRAINING MATERIALS AND THE ACADEMY PROCESS AND ALL THAT.SO WE DON'T NEED TO GO DOWN A FULL PATH OF KIND OF WHAT, WHAT THE TRAINING ACADEMY OPERATIONS AND THE MATERIALS LOOK LIKE CAUSE THAT'S HAPPENING SEPARATELY.
UM, BUT, BUT KIND OF THAT BALANCE BETWEEN TRAINED FOR WORST CASE SCENARIO, AT WHAT POINT IS, IS THE TRAINING MAKING A NOT WORST CASE SCENARIO LOOK LIKE A WORST CASE SCENARIO? UH, SOME CONCERNS INCLUDES THE, UH, THE EXPERIENCE OF THE OFFICERS RESPONDING TO THOSE CALLS BECAUSE YOU ARE GOING TO GET TO THOSE CALLS WHERE YOU, YOU, YOU THINK ABOUT WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN.
YOU, YOU KNOW, YOU'RE DRIVING AND YOU ONLY HAVE SECONDS TO MAKE A DECISION AS TO WHAT'S GOING TO OCCUR.
AND IT COULD BE AS SIMPLE AS, HEY, YOU KNOW, THE GUY'S GOING TO TAKE OFF RUNNING TO THE GUY'S GONNA PULL OUT A GUN.
AND THOSE ARE THE SITUATIONS THAT, YOU KNOW, YOU HAVE SECONDS TO SPLIT SECONDS TO DECIDE WHAT, WHAT KIND OF FORCE IS NECESSARY, IF ANY.
YEAH, I WISH WE HAD THE TIME AND THE POWER TO GET INTO GUN POLICY IN THIS COUNTRY, BUT WE'RE DEFINITELY NOT GETTING INTO THAT TODAY.
UM, ANY COMMENTS, ANY FURTHER COMMENTS ON THIS GENERAL AREA? I FEEL LIKE THERE'S A LOT THERE, BUT I DON'T KNOW WHERE TO HEAD.
UM, SO ONE, ONE THING I SHOULD MAKE CLEAR IS I HAVE, I HAVE NO INSIDE KNOWLEDGE OF WHAT HAPPENS IN THE TRAINING ACADEMY.
UM, ALL, ALL I CAN SEE, UM, LIKE ANYONE ELSE IN THE GENERAL PUBLIC IS, IS THE POLICY AND SOMETHING THAT I, I THINK I MIGHT BE HEARING, WHICH IS INTERESTING.
AND, UM, AND, AND, AND GOOD IF, IF I'M HEARING IT CORRECTLY, IS THAT REALLY ACTUALLY TRAINING GIVEN IN THE ACADEMY, IT MIGHT WELL BE CONSISTENT WITH SORT OF THE, THE WORDS OF THIS POLICY.
IN OTHER WORDS, ARE THE WORDS OF THE RESOLUTION.
IN OTHER WORDS, THAT, UM, YOU KNOW, THE, THE EXPERIENCE OF THE OFFICERS WHO JUST SPOKE IS THAT THEY REALLY ARE, YOU KNOW, IN, IN SORT OF SITUATIONALLY, UM, IN SORT OF LIVE, UH, YOU KNOW, IN LIVE TRAININGS, BEING TAUGHT TO AVOID, TO AVOID THE USE OF DEADLY FORCE AND TO EXPLORE REASONABLE ALTERNATIVES.
BUT DEADLY FORCE IS A, IS A LAST RESORT THAT BEING SAID.
UM, AND, AND SO IF THAT'S WHAT THE TRAINING IS, THAT'S IMPORTANT AND GREAT, AND SHOULD REMAIN THE TRAINING.
THAT BEING SAID, IT'S NOT WHAT THE TEXT OF THE CURRENT GENERAL ORDER IS BY ANY STRETCH OF THE IMAGINATION.
UM, IN OTHER WORDS, UM, IT'S TO SAY, TO, TO USE THE, THE TENNESSEE VERSUS GARNER STANDARD, RIGHT, AND TO USE DEADLY FORCE ONLY IF AN OFFICER REASONABLY PERCEIVES THAT DEADLY FORCE AGAINST THE OFFICER OR ANOTHER IS EMINENT, OR IF THE OFFICER REASONABLY PROCEEDS THAT THE INDIVIDUAL COMMITTED A CRIME OF VIOLENCE OR IS ABOUT TO COMMIT A CRIME OF VIOLENCE IS A MORE, UM, FORGIVING STANDARD BY DESIGN, RIGHT.
THEN WHAT IS PROPOSED IN THE COUNCIL RESOLUTION? AND WHEN I SAY BY DESIGN, THAT'S IMPORTANT, UM, I WOULD REALLY LOVE THAT TO SORT OF BEAT MY ACADEMIC DRUM HERE AND LEAVE THE COUNCIL AND OTHERS WITH THE, WITH THE BELIEF TO CONVINCE THEM OF, OF MY BELIEF THAT IT'S REALLY A MISTAKE OR POLICE POLICY ON USE OF FORCE TO CONTINUE TO SIMPLY PARROT THE SUPREME COURT STANDARD IN GARNER OR IN GRAHAM, WHICH IT DOES AND, AND, AND OTHER PLACES.
AND THAT'S BECAUSE WHEN THE SUPREME COURT SAID, HERE'S HOW WE'RE GOING TO REVIEW POLICE FORCE, THEY DID IT WITH CAUTIOUSNESS ABOUT WHETHER THEY COULD READ IT REALLY DICTATE THE TACTICS THAT ARE BEST USED BY POLICE IN THE SITUATIONS IN WHICH THEY FIND THEMSELVES POLICE DEPARTMENTS THEMSELVES ARE NOT UNLIKE THE SUPREME COURT POORLY POSITIONED TO BE GIVEN CLEARER DIRECTION ON, UM, TACTICS.
AND I THINK POLICE DEPARTMENTS, ALTHOUGH IN THE PAST HAVE TENDED LIKE APD TO SORT OF INCORPORATE SUPREME COURT CASE LAW INTO THEIR POLICIES AND IT A DAY INCREASINGLY YOU DO SEE DEPARTMENTS MOVING AWAY FROM THAT APPROACH AND, AND REQUIRING AS A MATTER OF POLICY THAT THE USE OF DEADLY FORCE, NOT JUST KIND OF, YOU KNOW, NOT FAIL, BUT ACTUALLY DO WHAT'S MORE OPTIMAL.
UM, WE LOOK AT CAMDEN FOR EXAMPLE, WHICH RECENTLY OVERHAULED ITS USE OF FORCE POLICIES AND WENT TO, UH, YOU KNOW, DEADLY FORCE AS LAST RESORT, ONLY A REQUIREMENT OF USE OF DEESCALATION WERE REASONABLY NECESSARY.
[00:45:01]
UM, UH, YOU LOOK AT CALIFORNIA, RIGHT? WHICH, UH, ACROSS THE STATE NOW IT'S, THE POLICE DEPARTMENTS ARE REVISING THEIR POLICIES IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE CHANGE IN CALIFORNIA LAW, WHICH AUTHORIZES, UM, UH, UH, DEADLY FORCE ONLY WHEN NECESSARY.SO I THINK THAT, UM, THIS IS A PLACE TO MOVE FROM POLICY BEING USED WHEN REASONABLE TO USE ONLY WHEN NECESSARY AND NO REASONABLE ALTERNATIVE.
IT IS A MOVE IT'S IMPORTANT THAT POLICY SAY IT, EVEN IF TRAINING IS GIVING THAT MESSAGE IN PART, BECAUSE POLICY IS A MEANS OF DISCIPLINING, UM, DEPARTURES FROM THAT TRAINING AND PRACTICE.
AND IF YOU DON'T HAVE A MEANS OF DISCIPLINING IT, THEN YOU'RE NOT GOING TO, YOU'RE NOT GOING TO GET COMPLIANCE AT THE END OF THE DAY.
YOU WILL WIN THE VAST MAJORITY OF, OF OFFICERS, BUT YOU WON'T CATCH A PROBLEM OFFICERS.
UM, I KNOW I'M GOING ON, BUT LET ME JUST SAY ONE LAST THING HERE.
AND THAT'S THAT, UM, JUST TO GO BACK TO TRAINING, RIGHT? IT'S I'M SORRY.
TWO POINTS, ONE ON POLICY, ONE ON TRAINING ONE, IS THAT IN THINKING ABOUT POLICY IT'S IMPORTANT, NOT ONLY TO BE WORRIED ABOUT THE CONTENT OF ANY PARTICULAR POLICY, BUT TO BE WORRIED ABOUT THE ENTIRE FRAMEWORK, RIGHT? SO IN TERMS OF QUESTIONS THAT ARE ON THE TABLE FOR IMPLEMENTING THE RESOLUTION, IN MY VIEW, IT WOULD BE A REAL SHAME.
IF WHAT HAPPENED WAS IN IMPLEMENTING THIS RESOLUTION, SOMEONE TOOK THIS LANGUAGE AND PLUMPED IT INTO THE GENERAL ORDERS AND SAID, THERE THERE'S THE POLICY RIGHT NEXT TO ALL THE OTHER GENERAL ORDERS THAT CONTINUE TO SORT OF GENERALLY PAIR IT THE GARNER STANDARD AND SAY THINGS THAT ARE ARGUABLY INTENTIONED WITH, WITH THIS POLICE NEED CLEAR POLICY.
UM, AS I, AS I THINK WE'VE ALREADY HEARD, AND THEN LASTLY, IT WOULD ALSO BE A MISTAKE IF, UH, THE POLICY WERE TO CHANGE AND ATTENTION TO TRAINING WASN'T CLOSELY PAID BECAUSE, UM, WORDS LIKE NECESSARY, RIGHT? UH, RURAL WORDS LIKE, UM, REASONABLE ALTERNATIVE ARE NOT, UM, DO NOT MEAN ONE THING, RIGHT? POLICE NEED TO BE TRAINED ON WHAT IS A REASONABLE ALTERNATIVE, RIGHT.
AND WHEN IS IT NECESSARY? UM, SO TRAINING REMAINS REALLY CRITIC THINKING OF MISS LAUREN.
AND AGAIN, I WANT TO THANK OUR FOUR OFFICERS FOR PARTICIPATING TODAY.
CAUSE I KNOW IT CAN'T BE EASY TO HAVE A CONVERSATION LIKE THIS.
AND AGAIN, JUST AS A REMINDER, WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT ACTIONS BEING TAKEN OR TRAINING YOU'VE BEEN GIVEN IS ABOUT THINKING ABOUT THE COMMUNITY'S CONVERSATION AND HOW WE WANT TO MOVE THE DEPARTMENT FORWARD.
AND I JUST, AGAIN, MY THANKS TO THE FOUR OF YOU FOR YOUR WILLINGNESS TO, TO ENGAGE SO OPENLY IN THIS CONVERSATION, UM, MS. PENTAGON, ONE THING THAT I'D LIKE TO ADD THAT THAT WAS TOUCHED ON BRIEFLY AND JUST AS WE KIND OF THINK ABOUT THESE ISSUES, UM, I KNOW WE'RE FOCUSED ON DEADLY FORCE OR NOT, BUT THINKING EVEN BROADER, UH, UH, USE OF FORCE, RIGHT? PART OF, I THINK WHAT WE REALLY NEED TO BE MINDFUL OF IS DEESCALATION.
RIGHT? AND WE'VE HEARD THIS A LOT RECENTLY, BUT WHAT SORT OF TRAINING ON DEESCALATION HAPPENS IS, IS EFFECTIVE.
AND I THINK THAT IT, YOU KNOW, IN EVERYTHING LIKE TURNS ON THE DETAILS, RIGHT? IF I LITIGATE A CASE, IT ALL TURNS ON THE FACTS OF WHAT HAPPENED.
THERE WAS IT REASONABLE, BUT WE'RE DEALING WITH LIKE THE CONSTITUTIONAL FLOOR WHEN WE ARE TALKING ABOUT, UH, GARDNER AND O'CONNOR RIGHT.
AND I THINK WHAT EVERYONE RIGHT NOW WITH THE DISCUSSION IS REALLY TURNING ON IS LIKE, LET'S, LET'S DISCUSS NOT JUST THE CONSTITUTIONAL FLOOR, WHICH MIGHT ELIMINATE LIABILITY FOR YOU.
IT ELIMINATES LIABILITY FOR YOU IF YOU ACHIEVE THAT FOR WE'RE TRYING TO, I THINK, FIND WAYS TO, TO DO BETTER.
SO THAT IT IS JUST, WE, WE HIT THE MINIMUM REQUIREMENT.
LET'S TRY AND SEE HOW WE CAN FIND A WAY THAT, THAT SITUATIONS, SOME, WHICH MIGHT BE SOME, THE CACO SOME WHICH MIGHT NOT BE RIGHT.
HOW DO WE, HOW DO WE GO ABOUT EVEN WHAT STEPS DO WE NEED TO TAKE AND WHAT DO WE NEED TO DO TO PREVENT THE USE OF FORCE IN THE FIRST INSTANCE, AND CERTAINLY TO PREVENTING THE USE OF DEADLY FORCE.
AND SO I JUST WANTED TO KIND OF UNPACK THOSE TWO POINTS A BIT ABOUT THE CONSTITUTION BEING THE FLOOR, UM, AND HOW IMPORTANT DEESCALATION IS IN TALKING ABOUT BEST PRACTICES FOR USE OF FORCE.
AND DEESCALATION IS MENTIONED IN THE RESOLUTION, UM, A COUPLE OF BULLET POINTS DOWN.
UM, LET'S MOVE ON A LITTLE BIT SINCE WE'RE COMING UP ON OUR HALFWAY MARK, UM, THE NEXT SECTION, THE TWO NEXT SECTIONS IN THE RESOLUTION, TALK ABOUT IMPACT MUSICIANS AND KIND OF QUOTE, LESS THAN LETHAL FORCE AS A, AS A, AS A TOOL, IT SEEMS MORE
[00:50:01]
SPECIFIC TO ACTUAL DEVICES.UM, WHAT ARE THE, WHAT ARE THE THOUGHTS ON, YOU KNOW, AND THIS ONE, UNLIKE THE TICKETS ITEM, IT BIFURCATES, IT SAYS USE OF IMPACT PROHIBITED WHEN EXERCISING FIRST AMENDMENT RIGHTS.
AND THEN IT GOES ON TO SAY THAT THE LESS THAN LETHAL, LIMITED TO INSTANCES WHERE VERY SIMILAR TO A DEADLY FORCE.
IF I COULD WEIGH IN HERE, LET'S DO THIS A LITTLE BIT.
SO OBVIOUSLY, UH, THE SITUATION THAT COMES UP IS, UM, IF PEOPLE ARE EXERCISING THEIR FIRST AMENDMENT RIGHTS, WHICH, WHICH THE SRT TEAM WAS FORMED TO PROTECT PEOPLE'S ABILITY TO DO THAT, UM, WHERE IT, WHERE IT GOES, UM, OR BECOMES AN ISSUE IS, IS WHEN IT'S NOT JUST THAT.
BUT THEN IT TURNS INTO SOME OTHER CRIMINAL ASPECTS OF, UH, ERAS SALTING SOMEBODY ELSE, UH, OR, OR CREATING, UM, DAMAGE TO PROPERTY.
SO, UH, AT THAT POINT, I THINK THAT DECISION, YOU KNOW, WE NEED TO COME TO AN UNDERSTANDING AS A COMMUNITY, UH, AS, AT WHAT POINT DOES THIS GET TO WHERE WE'RE, IT'S NO LONGER SOMEBODY JUST EXPRESSING THEIR FIRST AMENDMENT RIGHTS.
NOW SOMEBODY IS DESTROYING PROPERTY.
NOW SOMEBODY IS HARMING SOMEBODY ELSE.
AND WHAT DOES THAT LOOK LIKE? LIKE WHAT ARE THOSE THRESHOLDS? UM, SO OBVIOUSLY I THINK EVERYBODY ON THIS CALL, I WOULD HOPE EVERYBODY WOULD AGREE.
WE CAN'T ALLOW PEOPLE NO MATTER WHO THEY ARE TO, TO HARM OTHERS, RIGHT? YOU, YOU CAN'T ALLOW THIS PERSON TO GO SMACK THIS PERSON IN THE FACE CAN'T CAN'T HAPPEN.
UM, SO, SO HOW DO WE ADDRESS THAT AND PREVENT THAT, UH, THE LESS LETHAL MUNITIONS ARE AN OPTION.
THEY'RE NOT THE ONLY OPTION THAT'S AVAILABLE TO US.
UH, THE BEANBAG ROUNDS, UM, ARE, ARE, ARE GOOD.
THEY'RE USED ON PATROL QUITE A BIT.
THEY'VE BEEN INCREDIBLY EFFECTIVE ON PATROL, BUT THERE'S VARIOUS LEVELS OF THAT.
THERE'S THE, UH, PEOPLE WE'LL CALL THEM THE RUBBER BULLETS.
UH, BUT IT'S OUR 40 MILLIMETER GRENADE LAUNCHER, WHICH IS AN, AND ACTUALLY IT'S A PHONE, A PROJECTILE IT'S, IT'S NOT A, A BULLET, BUT, UH, OUR SWAT TEAM HAS A DIFFERENT ONE THAN WHAT WE USE AND SRT, UM, THEIRS IS MORE PRECISE.
IF YOU'RE FAMILIAR WITH BALLISTICS.
UM, IF I SHOOT SOMETHING OUT OF A SMOOTH MOWER, LIKE IN A SHOTGUN, UM, AS FAR AS PUTTING IT EXACTLY ON TARGET, WHERE I NEEDED TO BE PUT ON TARGET, IT'S MORE CHALLENGING THAN IF I WERE TO HAVE SOMETHING THAT RIFLED OUT, RIGHT.
IF YOU UNDERSTAND BALLISTICS, UM, SO GOING TO A RIFLED 40 MILLIMETER, UM, FOAM BULLET, LIKE WHAT WE HAVE IN SWAT WOULD PROBABLY BE A MUCH BETTER, UM, WEAPON SYSTEM FOR US TO HAVE MOVING FORWARD.
THE BEANBAG, UH, I'VE SEEN IT BE INCREDIBLY EFFECTIVE.
IT'S VERY EFFECTIVE ON, ON PATROL.
USUALLY WHEN YOU'RE DEALING WITH SOMEBODY WHO MAY BE IN A MENTAL CRISIS WHO BE ATTEMPTING TO HARM THEMSELVES OR OTHER, I'VE SEEN IT USED MULTIPLE TIMES WHERE PEOPLE WILL HAVE AN EDGE WEAPON, UM, AND EITHER BE ATTEMPTING TO HARM THEMSELVES OR ATTEMPTING TO HARM SOMEBODY ELSE.
UM, IT'S AN EFFECTIVE TOOL TO GIVE DISTANCE BETWEEN, UH, THE OFFICER AND OTHER CITIZENS AND THE PERSON WHO, WHO MAY BE TRYING TO HARM THEMSELVES, BUT IT IS ONLY EFFECTIVE IS ONCE IT IS DEPLOYED, YOU CAN SEND THE RESOURCES IN TO PLACE THAT PERSON INTO CUSTODY THEMSELVES ANYMORE.
AND SO THAT AD IS A PROPER WAY TO USE THAT DEVICE MOVING FORWARD.
UM, OBVIOUSLY IF YOU COULD GET A MUCH BETTER WEAPON THAT COULD BE RIFLED AND PUT ON TARGET, UH, THAT IS BETTER THAN SHOOTING SOMETHING OUT OF A SMOOTH BOARD, UH, MOVING FORWARD, BUT WE WOULD NEVER AND DEPLOY THAT, UH, AT PEOPLE WHO ARE JUST EXPRESSING THEIR FIRST AMENDMENT RIGHTS AND LESS INDIVIDUALS THAT ARE DOING THAT ARE ALSO ATTEMPTING TO TRY TO HARM OTHERS.
UM, AND, AND THEIR ACTION NEEDS TO BE STOPPED.
THAT WAS THE REASON THAT IT WAS DEPLOYED.
DOES THAT MAKE SENSE? AND I, AND I THINK THAT THE, THE RESOLUTION KIND OF MAKES THAT DISTINCTION WHERE FIRST AMENDMENT RIGHTS DOES NOT INCLUDE THE DESTRUCTION OR HARM TO OTHERS, RIGHT? AND SO THAT'S NOT WHAT'S IN THE FIRST AMENDMENT, BUT,
[00:55:01]
UM, IT, IT HAS THIS KIND OF SAME CHALLENGE ON THE, ON THE DENBY FORCE WHERE THE, KIND OF THE DEVIL'S IN THE DETAILS IN TERMS OF DEFINING IMMINENT THREAT AND SERIOUS BODILY HARM.AND, AND THIS VERY IMPORTANT DISTINCTION AS WE MOVE FORWARD THROUGH THIS WORK OF, WHEN ARE WE TALKING ABOUT A CROWD CONTROL MOMENT? AND THEN WHEN BE TALKING ABOUT AN INDIVIDUAL CALL, WHICH IT SEEMS, SEEMS TO HAVE VERY DIFFERENT PARAMETERS AROUND IT WHERE CERTAIN TACTICS OR APPROACHES ARE MORE OR LESS REASONABLE THAN A CROWD, I WOULD AGREE.
I THINK IF YOU'RE TRYING TO USE BEING BACKGROUNDS AS A WAY TO CONTROL A CROWD, I THINK THAT'S THE, THAT'S THE, THAT'S AN IMPROPER WEAPON SYSTEM FOR THAT.
IS IT AN EFFECTIVE WEAPON SYSTEM TO STOP A SPECIFIC INDIVIDUAL IN THAT CROWD DOING SOMETHING? YES.
BUT IF YOU CAN'T ALSO PUT THE RESOURCES OUT THERE, ONCE YOU HAVE STOPPED THAT PERSON FROM DOING THAT CRIMINAL ACT OR THAT, THAT HARM AND REMOVE THEM FROM THE FIGHT BY TAKING THEM INTO CUSTODY, IT'S NOT AN EFFECTIVE TOOL ANYMORE.
ANY OTHER INPUT FOLKS WANT TO PROVIDE ON THIS KIND OF QUOTE, LESS THAN LETHAL, UH, THIS LAUREN, THANKS.
SO MY, MY PERSPECTIVE ON THIS, AND IT'S SORT OF COMPLICATED ON THE ONE HAND, I, UM, I TAKE PART OF THE POINT AND PARTICULARLY THE, THE SECOND BULLET POINT THAT WE'RE FOCUSING ON HERE, SORT OF THE MOVING OF LESS THAN LETHAL INTO ESSENTIALLY TREATING THEM AS LETHAL FORCE.
RIGHT? IF YOU SORT OF LOOK AT THE PARALLEL WALL, I TAKE PART OF THE POINT OF THAT, BUT THE SPIRIT OF THAT IN PART TO BE, HEY, LET'S RECOGNIZE THAT, YOU KNOW, IT'S NOT REALLY JUST LIKE GETTING HIT BY A BEAN BAG, YOU KNOW, WHEN YOU'RE PLAYING CORN HOLE, LIKE IT HURTS, RIGHT.
AND CAN SERIOUSLY INJURE PEOPLE AND CAN EVEN UNDER CERTAIN CIRCUMSTANCES BE LETHAL UNDER CERTAIN CIRCUMSTANCES.
SO I, I AM ON BOARD WITH SORT OF A SPIRIT OF RECOGNIZING THAT THERE'S A RANGE OF TECHNOLOGIES THAT WE SORT OF CLASS FOR LEGAL PURPOSES, UM, UH, FOR POLICY PURPOSES, LESS AS LESS THAN LETHAL, BUT, BUT THEY'RE NOT STRICTLY SPEAKING.
THAT'S AN IMPORTANT THING TO RECOGNIZE, TO HAVE TAUGHT, TO HAVE, UM, UH, STATED IN POLICY.
ON THE OTHER HAND, I WORRY THAT THE SORT OF IMPETUS TO LIMIT THE USE OF THESE I'LL CALL THEM LESS THAN LETHAL WEAPONS MIGHT UNDO.
WHAT I THINK IS REALLY THE BIGGER PICTURE CONCERN, WHICH IS IN ALL CASES WE WANT FOR US TO BE AVOIDED.
IT'S LIKE ZERO FORCE, RIGHT? HOWEVER, IF THERE TO BE ANY FORCE, WE WANT THE LEAST COURSE THAT CAN BE USED.
AND WE CERTAINLY WANT, IN ALL INSTANCES TO AVOID A DEADLY FORCE, IF IT CAN'T POSSIBLY BE AVOIDED.
AND WHEN WE TALK ABOUT DEESCALATION, RIGHT, AT LEAST THE WAY THAT DEESCALATION IS TAUGHT, RIGHT, AND TRAINED ON DEESCALATION ASSUMES THAT THERE IS A RANGE OF FORCE TECHNIQUES THAT CAN BE DISTINGUISHED FROM EACH OTHER.
AND THAT CAN BE USED IF NECESSARY TO AVOID THE MORE SERIOUS ONE.
UM, AND WE ALSO KNOW THAT, BUT THE WAY IN WHICH NON-LETHAL FORCE IS, IS USED, RIGHT, ALL THE WAY DOWN THE CONTINUUM AFFECTS A SCENARIO AND HOW THAT SCENARIO MIGHT PROGRESS TO THE POSSIBLY TO THE POTENTIAL NEED TO USE DEADLY FORCE, THE PERCEIVED NEED TO USE IT USE DEADLY FORCE.
SO WHAT AM I SAYING HERE? A FEW THINGS, ONE WE CAN'T DIVORCE AS MS. PENA AND SAID, WE CAN'T DIVORCE SORT OF DEADLY FORCE FROM NON DEADLY FORCE IN THINKING ABOUT WHAT THE POLICY IS AND WHAT THE TRAINING IS.
CAUSE IT'S, IT'S INTERRELATED.
BUT SECONDLY, THE CAUTION I HAVE HERE IS, UM, TO TELL, TO TELL OFFICERS THEY SHOULD ALWAYS TREAT ALL OF THESE NON-LETHAL TECHNOLOGIES AS JUSTIFIED ONLY WHEN THEY GET TO THE POINT OF BEING ABLE TO USE LETHAL TECHNOLOGIES MIGHT UNDO THE ABILITY TO EFFECTIVELY DEESCALATE CERTAIN SITUATIONS.
IT MIGHT BE THE RIGHT THING TO USE A TASER, TO CREATE DISTANCE SET AND TIME SUCH THAT AN INDIVIDUAL CAN BE DISARMED RATHER THAN BE KILLED.
AND THEN DISARMED, IT'S NOT TO SAY THAT THESE AREN'T OVERUSED POTENTIALLY.
IT'S NOT TO SAY THAT THE POLICY COULDN'T BE BETTER.
IT DEFINITELY COULD, BUT, BUT THIS, AS,
[01:00:01]
AS WRITTEN, I THINK COULD ON DO WHAT I TAKE TO BE THE POINT OF, OF THE EXERCISE OFFICER JACKSON, THEN MISS HUGGER ALL THEN, UH, MR. VILLAREAL BRASS INDICATE THAT THIS IS A, COULD POTENTIALLY BE ONLY DOPE SITUATION, BUT IT SAYS THAT IT'S LESS THAN LIKELY TO, UM, SO POLICY DOES INDICATE THAT ON TOP OF OBVIOUSLY US HAVING TO BE AWARE OF WHAT, WHAT, UH, LESLIE THOUGHT DOES.UM, SO THOSE ARE ALREADY SITUATIONS OR INFORMATION THAT'S ALREADY ESTABLISHED, UM, BY THE DEPARTMENT TO THE OFFICER.
SO WE ARE AWARE OF THOSE, UM, UH, YOU KNOW, THOSE POTENTIALS, UH, SAME THING WITH TASER.
WE KNOW WHAT THOSE, YOU KNOW, THAT IT COULD CAUSE SERIOUS INJURY AS WELL, BUT IT'S ALSO LESS THAN LIKELY.
AND ALL THOSE ARE ESTABLISHED OBVIOUSLY ON, UH, IN THE, IN THE, IN POLICY.
BUT ON TOP OF THAT, THERE ARE DRILLED ON THAT.
THE TWO OF US AS WELL SAGAWA YEAH, SO THERE'S DEESCALATION AND THERE'S ESCALATION AVOIDANCE, AND ONE IS MUCH MORE EFFECTIVE THAN THE OTHER.
UM, AND THE CASE THAT, UM, I THINK OFFICER CRUM, RYAN, UH, BROUGHT UP IN TERMS OF SOMEONE HAVING A MENTAL HEALTH CRISIS AND WHERE THEY'RE PUTTING AN IMMINENT THREAT TO THEMSELVES, THAT SHOULD NOT BE A, LIKE WE CAN ACCOMPLISH ESCALATION OF RODENTS IN TERMS OF JUST HAVING A SEPARATE BODY OF MENTAL HEALTH OFFICERS THAT ARE GOING OUT WITHOUT WEAPONRY, ET CETERA, NOT EVEN HAVING LESS LETHAL, UH, BEAN BAGS OR ANYTHING ON THEM.
UM, AS FOR, I AGREE WITH THAT, WHAT MS. LAUREN SAID IN TERMS OF, UH, BEING BAGS OR CAN STILL BE LETHAL.
UM, AND ALSO I THINK WHAT I'M NOT HEARING IS ANY ACKNOWLEDGEMENT OF THE FACT THAT FOR, AND CORRECT ME IF I'M WRONG, CAUSE I'M OPEN TO LEARNING AND DEEPENING MY UNDERSTANDING OF, UH, VARIOUS AMMUNITIONS AND BALLISTICS STUFF.
BUT, UM, WHEN SOMEONE IS SHOT BY A BEANBAG GROUND, IT'S STILL TO THEM, THEIR BRAIN THINKS THAT THEY'D BEEN SHOT.
UM, THIS IS WHAT HAPPENED IN THE, IN THE KILLING OF MY GRANDMA'S.
UM, LIKE HE THOUGHT THAT HE HAD BEEN SHOT AND THAT'S WHAT PROMPTED HIM TO DRIVE AWAY.
UM, SO THAT CAN ALSO THEN LEAD TO, I JUST WANT TO REMIND EVERYBODY, WE'RE NOT HERE TO KIND OF COMMENT ON THINGS THAT HAVE OCCURRED IN THE PAST.
AND UNFORTUNATELY MR. RAMOS IS NOT WITH US TO SAY WHAT HE WAS THINKING OR FEELING AT THAT TIME.
AND SO I JUST WANT TO KEEP US ON THIS, ON THIS GOOD TRACK WE'VE BEEN ON LOOKING FORWARD.
THE FACTS ARE SAYING THAT HE WAS SHOT WITH, BY BEING BACKGROUND FIRST AND THEN HE DROVE AWAY, WHICH EVENTUALLY CAUSE THE LETHAL, UM, SHOT TO BE FIRED, WHICH EVENTUALLY, UM, AND IT IS LIFE.
SO THERE IS LIKE A CHAIN OF EVENTS THAT CAN TAKE PLACE ONCE A LESS LETHAL FORCE IS USED THAT THEN CAN CAUSE LETHAL FORCE TO USED.
AND WE'RE GOING TO CONTINUE HAVING THESE WORKSHOPS.
I THINK OUR NEXT ONE WILL CONTEMPLATE WHAT SOME OF THESE ALTERNATIVE SERVICES LOOK LIKE IN OTHER COMMUNITIES.
SO THERE'S A LOT OF KIND OF COMPLEXITY ABOUT HOW YOU ROLL THOSE OUT.
AND SO WE'RE GONNA HAVE ANOTHER TIME TO DIG INTO THAT, BUT I'M GLAD THAT YOU BROUGHT UP THAT AS, AS SEVERAL FOLKS HAVE OFFICER FOR THE REAL.
UM, SO BACK TO TWO TO THE FIRST BULLET POINT, UM, YOU KNOW, ABOUT USING IMPACT WAS ON, ON SOMEBODY WHO'S, UM, YOU KNOW, JUST EXERCISING THEIR FIRST AMENDMENT RIGHTS.
UM, I THINK IT'S, IT'S IMPORTANT FOR, FOR EVERYONE TO, TO KIND OF HAVE A GOOD UNDERSTANDING OF, OF, YOU KNOW, WHAT HAPPENS AFTER YOU USE FORCE.
UM, YOU KNOW, I, I WAS, UM, WHEN I WAS A ROOKIE, I WORKED EVENING SHIFT AND NIGHT SHIFT DOWN IN HENRY SECTOR.
UM, WE HAD THE RIVER TO BEN WHITE FROM CONGRESS AVENUE OUT TO DEL VALLEY.
AND AT THE TIME, UM, WE, WE WERE VERY, VERY, VERY BUSY AND, UM, UH, WORKED THE LAST MURDER OF, OF ONE CALENDAR YEAR, THE FIRST MURDER OF NEXT CALENDAR YEAR, ALL WITHIN 40 WORKING PERIOD, UM, HAVE WORKED TONS AND TONS OF TIMES OF, OF VIOLENT CRIMES AS A, AS A PATROL OFFICER IN, UM, YOU KNOW, WHEN, WHEN YOU'RE PUT IN THOSE SITUATIONS, YOU YOU'RE PUT INTO SITUATIONS WHERE, WHERE YOU, YOU HAVE TO USE FORCE.
IT'S A, IT'S A NATURE OF THE JOB, UNFORTUNATELY, AND SOMETIMES.
UM, AND SO I, I ONLY SAY THAT TO SAY THAT, YOU KNOW, UNFORTUNATELY AS A, AS A PATROL OFFICER, I'VE, I'VE DOCUMENTED MY USE OF FORCE MANY, MANY TIMES, AND I WANT YOU GUYS TO HAVE A GOOD UNDERSTANDING OF, OF WHAT HAPPENS ON THE BACKEND.
UM, WHEN THINGS CALM DOWN WHEN, WHEN EVERYONE'S, YOU KNOW, BACK TO BEING AS SAFE AS POSSIBLE, WHAT, WHAT HAPPENED.
[01:05:01]
ARE REQUIRED TO DOCUMENT THEIR FORCE, UM, AND, AND THAT GOES OFF FOR REVIEW.AND SO, YOU KNOW, UNDERSTANDING THAT IT'S GOING TO BE REVIEWED, IT'S GOING TO BE REVIEWED BY TWO DIFFERENT COMMANDERS.
UM, YOU KNOW, IT'S GOING TO BE REVIEWED AT, AT YOUR, AT YOUR FIRST LINE SUPERVISOR LEVEL, IT'S GOING TO BE REVIEWED AT THE LIEUTENANT LEVEL.
IT'S GONNA BE REVIEWED BY YOUR INITIAL COMMANDER.
IT'S GOING TO GO OFF FOR A PEER REVIEW.
SOME OF THESE, UH, ISSUES GO TO A PHOTO REVIEW BOARD TO REVIEW AT A HIGHER LEVEL TO SAY, OKAY, ARE WE SEEING ANY PATTERNS OR ARE WE SEEING OUR, OUR, OUR FOLKS ARE NOT REMEMBERING THIS ONE LITTLE NUGGET WITHIN POLICY? UM, SO, UM, SO SPECIFICALLY, RIGHT, LIKE IF SOMEONE WERE TO USE AN IMPACT MUNITION ON SOMEBODY SOLELY EXERCISING THEIR RIGHTS, WE HAVE A CHECKS AND BALANCES SYSTEM TO DEAL WITH THOSE PROBLEMS. UM, YOU KNOW, OUR POLICY TALKS ABOUT LIKE, YES, WE, WE USE THE OBJECTIVE REASONABLE STANDARD, BUT WE ALSO MAKE SURE THAT NO WAS, WAS THAT USE OF FORCE NECESSARY IN, IN THAT MOMENT.
SO NOT ONLY WAS IT REASONABLE, IT WASN'T NECESSARY.
SO, UM, SO I JUST WANT, I WANT TO KIND OF LAY THAT OUT THERE.
SO FOLKS UNDERSTAND, UM, THE PROCESS A LITTLE BIT.
UM, I, I VERY MUCH AGREE WITH WHAT MS. LAUREN SAID EARLIER IN REGARDS TO THAT SECOND BULLET POINT.
UM, IF, IF WE HAVE ALMOST MIRRORING LANGUAGE ON WHEN I CAN USE DEADLY FORCE OR WHEN I CAN USE LESS LETHAL FORCE, WE'RE GOING TO CREATE PROBLEMS. UM, SO SOME OF THOSE PROBLEMS WILL MANIFEST THEMSELVES IN INTO SITUATIONS WHERE, UM, OFFICERS GET HURT.
SOME OF THOSE PROBLEMS WILL MANIFEST TO WHERE CITIZENS GET HURT.
AND, AND I, YOU KNOW, I, I, I THINK THAT, I THINK THAT HAVING A CLEAR DISTINCTION, SO, SO OFFICERS CAN UNDERSTAND, YOU KNOW, WHEN IS IT APPROPRIATE? WHEN IS IT APPROPRIATE FOR ME TO GRAB YOU AND THROW YOU TO THE GROUND? WHEN'S IT PUNCH YOU? WHEN'S IT APPROPRIATE ME TO HIT YOU WITH A STICK OR SHOOT YOU WITH A TASER OR, OR TAKE MY TASER AND JUST DRIVE STUN YOU.
SO YOU HAVE JUST PAIN COMPLIANCE.
WHEN IS IT APPROPRIATE FOR ME TO ESCALATE TO DEADLY FORCE? UM, I THINK THERE'S A WHOLE NOTHER CONVERSATION THAT WE CAN HAVE TO SAY.
UM, ONE WORD WHEN TALKING ABOUT DEADLY FORCE, WHICH WEAPON SYSTEM IS THE RIGHT WEAPON SYSTEM TO TAKE INTO POTENTIAL DEADLY FORCE SITUATIONS.
UM, SO THERE'S, THERE'S A LOT THERE TO UNPACK.
UM, I, THE OTHER THING, AND IT'S, IT'S, IT'S TOO DEEP OF A CONVERSATION PROBABLY TO HAVE TODAY, BUT I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT THAT WE, AT SOME POINT THAT WE UNPACK THE, THE FORCE CONTINUUM THAT, THAT THE AUSTIN POLICE DEPARTMENT KIND OF OPERATES UNDER IS THE DRM, RIGHT? THE DYNAMIC RESPONSE RESISTANCE MODEL THAT, UM, YOU KNOW, FOR, FOR YEARS WE TALKED ABOUT LIKE A LADDER WHERE, YOU KNOW, YOUR OFFICER PRESENCE WAS YOUR FIRST KIND OF STEP IN THE LADDER, AND THEN YOU COULD USE VERBAL COMMANDS AND THEN YOU COULD USE, YOU KNOW, OPEN HAND, SOFT CONTROLS AND THEN OPEN HAND HARD CONTROLS.
AND, AND THERE WAS THIS IDEA AMONGST SOME PEOPLE THAT YOU HAD TO CLIMB THE WATER, YOU KNOW, I NEEDED, I NEEDED TO DO THIS.
AND WHAT WAS HAPPENING WAS WHEN YOU HAD OFFICERS THAT WOULD COME INTO A SITUATION THAT WOULD IMMEDIATELY GO TO THE APPROPRIATE LEVEL OF FORCE, SOME FOLKS WILL SAY, WAIT, TIME OUT, WE HAVE THIS LADDER.
WHY AREN'T YOU GOING UP THE LADDER? AND AT TIMES THERE'S JUST NOT ENOUGH TIME TO GO UP THE LADDER.
AND SO, YOU KNOW, WHEN OUR DEPARTMENT CHANGED THE DR OR M, UM, I THINK IT WAS A CHANGE FOR THE BEST, BECAUSE IT ALLOWS PEOPLE TO COME IN AT THE CORPORATE LEVEL.
IF, IF, IF COMING IN WITH COMING IN THREATENING TO TASTE THE BODY AND BEING WILLING TO USE A TASER TO DO, TO RESOLVE A SITUATION IS APPROPRIATE.
AND WE SHOULD ALLOW OUR OFFICERS TO COME IN AT THAT LEVEL, RECOGNIZE THAT, YES, WE WANT YOU TO DEESCALATE.
I WAS HAVING A CONVERSATION YESTERDAY AT MY FIVE YEAR OLD'S BIRTHDAY PARTY WITH SOME FRIENDS OF OURS.
AND, AND, AND I SAID, YOU KNOW, WE WERE TALKING ABOUT WORK AND I WAS TALKING ABOUT TALKING MY WAY OUT OF PROBLEMS. I'VE GOT A, I'VE GOT A DEGREE IN COMMUNICATIONS FROM UT.
AND, YOU KNOW, WHEN I WAS A HOSTAGE NEGOTIATOR, I LOVED THE CHALLENGE OF TRYING TO RESOLVE SITUATIONS WITH MY WORDS.
THAT'S WHY I WENT TO THE SCHOOL TO BEGIN WITH.
AND, YOU KNOW, THERE'S, THERE'S BEEN LOTS OF SITUATIONS IN MY CAREER, UM, WHERE I DIDN'T, YOU KNOW, UH, IT'S LIKE, YOU KNOW WHAT, I DON'T WANT TO GET PUNCHED IN THE MOUTH TODAY.
AND, AND IF I CAN TALK MY WAY OUT OF THIS, IF I CAN, IF I CAN TAKE A MINUTE AND GIVE MYSELF THE TIME AND DISTANCE WITH MY WORDS, THEN LET'S DO THAT.
YOU DON'T, THEY'RE NOT, NOT EVERYTHING NEEDS TO BE, UM, YOU KNOW, RUSHED
[01:10:01]
INTO.AND SO, UM, YOU KNOW, JUST UNDERSTANDING THAT, THAT THE, THE VAST MAJORITY OF YOUR OFFICERS, ONCE, ONCE THEY GET ON THE STREETS AND ONCE THEY'RE WITH AN FTO, AND ONCE THEY'RE LEARNING THE JOB, I THINK WE HAVE THE ABILITY TO, TO EXPLAIN TO PEOPLE, RIGHT, THAT YES, WE HAVE THESE OPTIONS.
AND SOMETIMES THE THREAT OF THAT OPTION IS ALL THAT YOU HAVE TO LET YOU HAVE TO DO.
UM, AND, AND WE CAN CONTINUE TO DEESCALATE.
I WAS, I WAS PART OF THE APA, UM, LEADERSHIP AT THE TIME THAT OUR DEESCALATION POLICY WAS, WAS FORMALLY ENACTED.
AND I REMEMBER HAVING A GROUP CONVERSATION WITH SOME ACTIVISTS AND, AND, AND I TOLD THEM, I SAID, DEESCALATION IS COPPING ONE OH ONE, THAT'S EVERY SINGLE CALL THAT YOU GO TO YOU.
IF YOU REMOTELY KNOW WHAT YOU'RE DOING, YOU SHOULD BE DEESCALATING FROM THE MOMENT THAT YOU ARRIVE UNTIL YOU LEAVE.
UM, I USED TO TELL ROOKIES ON OUR SHIFT WHEN I, WHEN I WORKED UP IN EDWARDS SECTOR, UM, CAUSE I HAD A PRETTY JUNIOR SHIFT.
I WAS A SENIOR GUY ON A, ON A JUNIOR SHIFT AND I WOULD TELL HIM GUYS, YOUR, YOUR NUMBER ONE GOAL WHEN YOU GET THERE IS TO SLOW EVERYTHING DOWN COMMENT, AND THEN, YOU KNOW, FIGURE OUT WHAT'S MY PROBLEM, WORK THROUGH MY PROBLEM AS SAFELY AS POSSIBLE.
SO, UM, I THINK IT'S, I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT FOR FOLKS TO, TO RECOGNIZE THAT THINGS ARE THINGS THAT HAPPEN, UM, REGULARLY AS A, AS A COURSE OF JUST WORKING THE JOB.
UM, THE LAST THING I'LL SAY, AND THEN I'LL GIVE IT BACK TO YOU.
JIMMY IS, IS, YOU KNOW, I, I HAVE ISSUE WITH, ESPECIALLY WITH EVERYTHING BEING LUMPED INTO THIS ONE BULLET POINT AND EVERYTHING BEING UP TO THIS ONE BULLET POINT AND IT BEING REALLY RESERVED FOR DEADLY FORCE SITUATIONS.
UM, YOU KNOW, THERE, THERE ARE, THERE ARE DEFINITE TIMES, UM, WHERE IT'S, UH, IN MY OPINION, IT'S APPROPRIATE TO USE THE TASER, UM, BECAUSE IT'S GOT A HELPING OFFICER TO LIKELY TAKE SOMEONE INTO CUSTODY, UH, PARTICULARLY IN SITUATIONS WHERE THEY MIGHT BE BY THEMSELVES.
UM, YOU KNOW, PEPPER SPRAY, I HATE PEPPER SPRAY WORKING DOWN ON SIXTH STREET, GAVE ME A HATE FOR PEPPER SPRAY THAT I DIDN'T THINK THAT I HAD POSSIBLE, UH, BECAUSE I'VE BEEN EXPOSED TO IT SO MANY TIMES.
AND, UH, I CAN COUNT ON ONE HAND THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE THAT I HAVE TRIED TO PEPPER SPRAY, SOME OF THEM VERY UNSUCCESSFULLY BECAUSE I USED IT SO LITTLE.
UM, AND SO, YOU KNOW, HAVING, BUT WITHOUT UNDERSTANDING HAVING THE OPTION TO USE IT IN CERTAIN SITUATIONS, I THINK IS VERY IMPORTANT.
AND, AND I'LL TELL YOU RIGHT NOW THAT IT'S, IT'S VERY TOUGH FOR ME TO EVEN THINK ABOUT A SITUATION THAT WOULD BE A DEADLY FORCE SITUATION WHERE I WOULD REMOTELY GO FOR PEPPER SPRAY.
UM, UM, AND THEN THE LAST LINE IN THAT BULLET OF HAVING ALL THE REASONABLE ALTERNATIVES BEING EXHAUSTED, IT GOES BACK TO THE DRM AND, AND, AND, YOU KNOW, I DON'T KNOW, REALISTICALLY, AND AGAIN, JIMMY, LIKE WE TALKED ABOUT THE OTHER DAY, I'M, I'M, I'M HAPPY THAT WE'RE HAVING THESE CONVERSATIONS, UM, BECAUSE I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT FOR, FOR YOU AND, AND YOUR, YOUR FELLOW COUNCIL MEMBERS TO, TO UNDERSTAND THAT.
I, I DON'T KNOW THAT THAT'S REASONABLE.
I DON'T KNOW THAT IT'S REASONABLE FOR US TO TELL AN OFFICER, YOU HAVE TO DO EVERYTHING ELSE BEFORE YOU DECIDE TO TAKE SOMEBODY.
UH, YOU HAVE TO DO EVERYTHING ELSE BEFORE YOU DECIDE TO USE A LESS LETHAL, LESS LETHAL REALM.
I THINK THAT WE CAN TALK TO MARY, YOU KNOW, SPECIFICALLY, UM, YOU KNOW, ROCKY EARLIER BROUGHT UP, UM, YOU KNOW, TALKING ABOUT, YOU KNOW, THESE MENTAL HEALTH CALLS, LIKE IN ROCK YET, I WROTE DOWN, YOU KNOW, DEESCALATION VERSUS ESCALATION AVOIDANCE, CAUSE THAT'S A PHRASE THAT I HAD NEVER HEARD BEFORE.
AND IT'S SOMETHING I WANT TO DIVE INTO.
UM, IN MY OPINION, THAT'S WHERE WE SHOULD BE SPENDING OUR TIME.
UM, TRYING TO UNDERSTAND, YOU KNOW, DO WE, DO WE NOT WANT TO, TO USE FORCE TO BE, NOT WANT TO RESPOND TO THESE CALLS? DO WE NOT WANT IT? LIKE, HOW DO WE UNPACK THAT? BUT, BUT SAYING, YOU KNOW, YOU HAVE TO DO EVERYTHING ELSE IN YOUR POWER BEFORE YOU USE THIS LESS LETHAL OPTION IS GONNA, MY FEAR IS THAT IT WILL PUSH OFFICERS TO NOT USE LESS LETHAL OPTIONS.
AND THE REASON THAT THOSE OPTIONS EXIST IS BECAUSE PEOPLE IN THE COMMUNITY WERE TIRED OF HAVING LOTS OF NEGATIVE OUTCOMES.
AND THEY WENT TO BUSINESS TO SAY, HOW CAN WE GIVE OFFICERS MORE TIME, MORE DISTANCE? AND THE ABILITY TO UTILIZE COVER BETTER TO, TO LOWER THE NUMBER OF NEGATIVE OUTCOMES.
[01:15:01]
BUILT ON US AS A COMMUNITY TO REGRESS TO WHERE I HAVE, YOU KNOW, I HAVE MY, MY, MY, MY PERSON I SHOW UP I'M, I'M, I'M AN AGENT OF THE GOVERNMENT, I'M OFFICER VILLAREAL.UM, AND THEN I HAVE MY WORDS AND THEN I HAVE NOTHING ELSE OTHER THAN DEADLY FORCE.
UH, THANK YOU, OFFICER ALL THAT, THAT DEFINITELY FELT LIKE SOME REAL TALK.
AND, AND I REALLY APPRECIATE YOU BEING DIRECT.
IT'S NOT ALWAYS EASY TO DO IN A FORUM THAT IS BEING BROADCAST.
UM, YOU KNOW, PART OF THIS CONVERSATION IS ALSO FOR THE PUBLIC, SO THAT IT'S IN ADDITION TO THIS CONVERSATION, THERE'S ALSO OBVIOUSLY WORK HAPPENING IN THE CITY MANAGER'S OFFICE AND WORKING GROUPS, CONVENING AND ALL THAT STUFF.
AND, AND, YOU KNOW, WE HAVE OUR OFFICE OF POLICE OVERSIGHT ON THIS CALL KIND OF TO, TO BE VISIBLE AND PRESENT TO THIS, TO THIS CONVERSATION.
UM, AND I THINK SOMETHING, YOU, YOU, YOU LAID OUT A LOT THAT THOMAS, THE ONE THING I DO WANT TO KIND OF, UM, NOTE THAT I THOUGHT WAS REALLY IMPORTANT IS, UM, THE, THE SYSTEMS OF OVERSIGHT AND DISCIPLINE THAT EXIST DO RELY UPON THE POLICY, MATCHING THE TRAINING, KIND OF TO MS. LAUREN'S POINT, BECAUSE IF THE POLICIES DON'T MATCH THE TRAINING, THEN YOU FIND FOLKS VIOLATING THE TRAINING, BUT NOT BEING ABLE TO BE DISCIPLINED BECAUSE OF THE POLICY.
AND SO YOU END UP IN THIS KIND OF LIKE TOUGH SPOT.
AND SO GETTING THESE THINGS ALIGNED IS DEFINITELY AN IMPORTANT PART OF THIS WORK.
I THINK MS. PENTAGON AND THEN CORPORAL JOHNSON HAD THEIR HANDS UP.
AND MY POINT WAS BROUGHT UP EARLIER IN THE CONVERSATION I HAD SAID, ALL RIGHT, COLONEL JOHNSON.
UM, COUPLE OF THINGS IS, UM, I KNOW WE'VE HAD THIS LONG DRAWN OUT CONVERSATION ABOUT THIS.
SO EXCUSE ME IF I FORGET SOME OF MY POINTS HERE, BUT I THINK, UH, ONE THING OUR DEPARTMENT HAS TO CONTINUE TO DO AND WHICH THEY DO A GREAT JOB AT, BUT WE HAVE TO CONTINUE TO DO GOING FORWARD IS RECOGNIZING THE LIMITATIONS WE HAVE WITH OUR LESLIE BILL OPTIONS.
WE DO RECOGNIZE THAT THOSE, UH, LESS LETHAL OPTIONS IF THEY'RE USED INCORRECTLY ARE NOT USED IN THEIR PROPER BAN MANNER CAN CAUSE SERIOUS BODILY INJURY CAN POTENTIALLY BE FATAL.
SO THE DEPARTMENT RECOGNIZES THAT AND WE, WE HAVE, FOR EXAMPLE, THE TASER, THERE'S A SPECIFIC DISTANCE THAT'S RECOMMENDED.
AND THEN ALSO A SPECIFIC PLACE THAT WE'RE SUPPOSED TO AIM THAT TASER, UH, TO USE IT EFFECTIVELY.
AND SAME THING GOES FOR THE LESS THAN LETHAL SHOTGUN.
THIS IS THE FIRST TIME I'VE SEEN IT USED IN A CROWD CONTROL TYPE SITUATION LIKE THIS.
UM, WHEN I SPEAK WITH SOME OF THE OFFICERS WHO HAVE BEEN AT APD FOR, UH, THAT WERE PROBABLY HERE BACK IN THE EARLY TWO THOUSANDS, UM, A LOT OF THEM, AND THIS IS THE FIRST TIME WE'VE SEEN PROTESTS TO THIS MAGNITUDE.
AND SO IT WAS LIMITED TO OPTIONS LIKE THE SHOCK MUST'VE THE SHOTGUN HAD BEEN USED IN OTHER SITUATIONS OUT ON PATROL.
SO I THINK THIS IS THE FIRST TIME THAT WE GET TO SEE, HEY, WE HAVE SOME LIMITATIONS WITH HOW IT'S BEING USED AS A CROWD CONTROL, SUCH A CROWD CONTROL SITUATION.
UH, THE OTHER THING I WANTED TO TOUCH ON WAS THE UNDERSTANDING DEESCALATION.
AND I KNOW THAT TERM GETS TOSSED AROUND A WHOLE LOT, BUT I THINK WE NEED TO RECOGNIZE THAT WE HAVE TO HAVE SOME TYPE OF WORKING UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT THE ESCALATION MEANS, BECAUSE I THINK IT MEANS SOMETHING DIFFERENT TO EVERY PERSON.
AND WHAT I MEAN BY THAT IS TAKE, FOR EXAMPLE, LET'S SAY AN OFFICER GOES TO A CALL AND THERE'S A MAN WITH A KNIFE AND THE OFFICER HAS NO TIME.
AND LET'S SAY HE HE'S TALKING WITH THE GUY HE'S COMMUNICATING.
AND HE REALIZES, HEY, WE HIT THE LIMITATION WITH, WITH SPEAKING, WE HAVE TO ACT, OR HE'S WANTING TO EITHER HURT SOMEONE OR HURT HIMSELF.
AND LET'S SAY, HE'S COMING TOWARDS THE OFFICER.
AND THE OFFICER DECIDES TO PUT HIS TASER.
AND HE'S ABLE TO DISARM THAT SUBJECT.
WELL, I COULD HAVE POTENTIALLY BEEN A DEADLY FORCE AND THE OFFICER WAS ABLE TO DEESCALATE THAT AND TURN THAT INTO A TEACHING POSITION WHERE THE OFFICER, THAT PERSON IS STILL ALIVE AND NO ONE'S INJURED AND THAT'S JUST A HYPOTHETICAL.
BUT TO US, THAT'S DEESCALATING THAT SITUATION WHERE IT COULD HAVE POTENTIALLY BEEN A DEADLY FORCE SITUATION.
SO I THINK WE HAVE TO REALIZE THAT BASED ON THE CALL AND BASED ON THE SITUATION, THE ESCALATION MIGHT BE SOMETHING A LITTLE DIFFERENT.
NOW, IF SAY THAT INDIVIDUAL WAS HAVING A MENTAL BREAKDOWN AND THE OFFICER SHOWS UP AND HE POINTS THE GUN AND THIS GUY'S ON ARM, TOTALLY DIFFERENT SITUATION THERE.
NOW WE CAN SAY, OKAY, DEESCALATION YEAR, WASN'T PULLING OUT THE GUN.
IN FACT, YOU MAY HAVE ESCALATED THE SITUATION GIVEN THE CIRCUMSTANCES.
SO I THINK THAT WE HAVE TO LOOK AT IT FROM THAT SCOPE AND UNDERSTANDING THAT THAT DEESCALATION IS NOT ALWAYS GOING TO BE SHOWING UP.
AND HEY, LET'S TALK TO THIS GUY.
LIKE IF WE HAVE AN ACTIVE SHOOTER SITUATION, IF OFFICERS ARE SHOWING UP AND THERE'S A ACTIVE SHOOTER INSIDE OF A HIGH SCHOOL,
[01:20:01]
A MIDDLE SCHOOL ALREADY EXPECTING THE OFFICERS TO GO IN THERE AND SAY, HEY, JUST TALK TO US WHILE HE'S FIRING AND PULLING THE TRIGGER, OR ARE WE EXPECTING THOSE OFFICERS TO GO IN THERE AND STOP THE THREAT.SO I THINK THAT WE HAVE TO KIND OF KEEP THAT IN MIND WHEN WE TALK ABOUT DEESCALATION, THAT WE HAVE TO LOOK AT WHAT SITUATION WE'RE IN.
AND I HATE SPEAKING IN GENERAL TERMS, BUT IT'S REALLY HARD TO KIND OF DEFINE SPECIFIC THINGS AND SAY, HEY, WE'RE GOING TO HAVE A POLICY IN PLACE FOR EVERY SINGLE THING.
AND THEN JUST TO TOUCH ON WHAT THE OFFICER VILLAREAL TALKED ABOUT AS FAR AS THE POLICIES AND PROCEDURE IN PLACE FOR OUR USE OF FORCE OR RESPONSE TO RESISTANCE INVESTIGATIONS, OR WHENEVER THOSE STUDENTS, WHENEVER OFFICER DOES USE FORCE HE'S, HE'S CORRECTED.
UM, PART OF MY JOB IS TO REVIEW THAT FORCE.
UM, AND SO AT MY LEVEL, I'M LOOKING AT ALL THE BODY CAM VIDEOS I'M INTERVIEWING THE OFFICERS, I'M INTERVIEWING WITNESSES, I'M INTERVIEWING THE SUSPECTS OR THE INDIVIDUALS THAT THE FORCE WAS APPLIED TOWARDS.
AND I'M MAKING SURE THAT THIS WAS ALL WITHIN COMPLIANCE.
SO THIS TAKES SEVERAL DAYS BECAUSE I HAVE TO REVIEW ALL THE BODY, ALL THE VIDEO AVAILABLE VIDEO AND EVIDENCE READ REPORTS, MAKE SURE THAT EVERYTHING LINES UP WITH WHAT HAPPENED AND WHAT WAS CONSISTENT WITH OUR POLICIES AND PROCEDURE.
AND THEN THAT GETS SENT TO THE LIEUTENANT, THE LIEUTENANT REVIEWS THAT, AND IT GETS SENT TO THE COMMANDER AND THEN IT GOES BACK AND IT GETS REVIEWED AGAIN.
SO THERE'S CHECKS AND BALANCES IN PLACE.
AND WHAT I'VE SEEN, UM, ARE WHAT ARE, WHAT I'VE SEEN OUR DEPARTMENT DO AT TIMES IS IF WE HAVE A SITUATION WHERE WE'RE LIKE, HEY OFFICER, WE WERE STARTING TO SEE A TREND WITH OFFICERS USING THIS POTENTIAL SITUATION TO USE FORCE.
AND WE FEEL LIKE IT'S NOT NECESSARY.
THE DEPARTMENT PUSHES OUT TRAINING, OR THEY SEND OUT EMAILS OR MEMOS AND SAYING, HEY, WE NEED TO CHANGE THIS, UH, EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATELY, OR WE TO STOP HAVING OFFICERS KIND OF MAKE THESE DECISIONS AND DO THESE THINGS THAT ARE CREATING THAT TYPE OF FORCE AND THOSE SITUATIONS.
SO THERE'S A LOT THAT GOES ON IN THE BACKEND, UH, DURING THOSE SITUATIONS.
UM, MR. WEBB, YOU HAVE TO THINK, I CAN SEE YOUR HAND IS UP.
HI, CAN YOU HEAR ME? YEAH, WE CAN HEAR YOU NOW.
THE BULLET POINT I WANT TO FOCUS ON IS ONE THAT SAYS GENERAL ORDERS REQUIRING OFFICERS TO INTERVENE TO STOP AND PROPER EXCESSIVE USE OF FORCE BY THE FELLOW OFFICERS SHOULD BE APPROPRIATELY ENFORCED.
UH, I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE IN THE COMMUNITY, UH, WOULD BE CONCERNED ABOUT THAT WORDING, WHERE IT SAYS SHOULD BE APPROPRIATELY, YOU KNOW, CAUSE FIRST, YOU KNOW, WE'RE THINKING, HOW ARE THEY DEFINING APPROPRIATELY? AND INSTEAD OF SHOULD, WHY NOT? WE'LL BE ABSOLUTELY, WE'LL BE, UH, ENFORCED BECAUSE FROM THE PERSPECTIVE OF THE COMMUNITY, UH, IT'S NOT A TRAINING, UH, ISSUE IS NOT A FUNDING, UH, UH, ISSUE.
THE ISSUE IS THAT PEOPLE ARE GETTING AWAY WITH VIOLATIONS AND NOT BEING, UH, PUNISHED.
UM, OFFICER JOHNSON BROUGHT UP THE, THE POINT THAT HE HAS TO REVIEW, YOU KNOW, UH, THE CAM FOOTAGE, UH, WE HAVE INSTANCES WHERE CAM QUARTERS OFF IT'S PURPOSELY TURNED OFF, SO THERE'S NO VISUALS TO, TO REVIEW.
SO MY, I WOULD LIKE TO HEAR FROM THE OFFICERS, UH, YOU KNOW, THEIR RESPONSE TO MY CONCERNS ABOUT THIS, THIS PARTICULAR BULLET POINT, CORPORAL JOHNSON.
I THINK WHAT YOU'RE STARTING TO SEE NOW A LOT MORE, WHAT I'VE NOTICED IS THE DEPARTMENT IS STARTING TO HAVE A LOT BIGGER OF A, UH, I GUESS FOR LACK OF A BETTER TERM, A HARD STANCE ON BY THE CAMERAS NOT BEING ON DURING THOSE, THOSE SITUATIONS.
UM, WHEN WE FIRST GOT THERE AND IT WAS ONE OF THE, IT'S A NEW TOOL, SO EVERYONE'S TRYING TO GET USED TO, WELL, I NEED TO TURN THIS ON OR MAKING SURE THAT WHEN, WHENEVER WE OPEN OUR PATROL CAR DOOR, THAT CAMERA'S ON, BUT NOT TO GET DEEP IN THE WEEDS, WHENEVER THOSE CAMERAS ARE OFF, IT DIDN'T, IT CORPORATELY TURNED OFF BY THE OFFICER ON THAT CAMERA.
AND AS FAR AS HOW MUCH THE BATTERY PERCENTAGE WAS WHEN IT WAS LAST DOCK, WHEN IT WAS LAST TURNED ON, IF IT WAS RECORDING OR NOT.
SO THEY COULD DEFINITELY DIVE INTO THAT AND MAKE AND DETERMINED IT, THIS THING WAS ACCIDENTALLY TURNED OFF OR WAS IT KNOCKED OFF OR DID THE OFFICER JUST FELL TO TURN IT ON? AND I THINK THAT THE CONSEQUENCES NOW IS ALMOST LIKE THERE'S A ZERO TOLERANCE JUST BASED ON EVERYTHING THAT WE'RE SEEING NATIONALLY AND EVERYTHING THAT WE'RE WE'RE DEALING WITH.
WE WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT WE ARE STILL HOLDING OURSELVES ACCOUNTABLE IN THOSE SITUATIONS.
AND WE HAVE POLICIES IN PLACE WHEN THOSE CAMERAS ARE NOT TURNED ON WHEN THAT STUFF HAPPENS.
AND TO YOUR FIRST POINT ABOUT OFFICERS HAVING TO INTERVENE OR INTERVENE.
WHENEVER WE SEE, AND ALSO USING EXCESSIVE FORCE, ONE OF THE MOST INTERESTING THINGS I THOUGHT I WENT THROUGH IN THE POLICE ACADEMY.
[01:25:01]
THAT THEY KIND OF TELL YOU BEFOREHAND, BUT WE HAD THIS ONE SCENARIO WHERE WE, UH, CAUSE WE DO A LOT OF THOSE, UM, WHAT WE CALL ROLE PLAY.AND WE HAD A SCENARIO WHERE WE HAD TO GO INTO A ROOM AND IT SAYS, HEY, YOU'RE RESPONDING AS A BACKUP OFFICER, UH, FOR ANOTHER OFFICER WHO'S OUT ON THE SUBJECT.
WELL, THE DOOR IS CLOSED AND THE MOMENT YOU OPENED THE DOOR, YOU SEE THE OFFICER ON TOP OF AN INDIVIDUAL.
AND THAT INDIVIDUAL IS OBVIOUSLY DISPLAYING SIGNS THAT HE IS GIVING UP.
HE'S NOT FINDING THE OFFICERS WILLING TO COOPERATE, BUT THE OFFICER WAS TOLD BECAUSE IT'S ROLEPLAY CONTINUE TO USE EXCESSIVE FORCE.
AND IT'S DESIGNED TO SEE WHAT THE OFFICER'S GOING TO DO OFF.
SEE, I WENT IN THERE AND I DON'T THINK IT HAD ANYTHING TO DO WITH ME HAVING PRIOR LAW ENFORCEMENT EXPERIENCE.
BUT AS SOON AS I OBSERVED THAT, I MAINLY WENT OVER THERE AND GRABBED THE OFFICER AND SEPARATED IT FROM THE INDIVIDUAL AND SAY, YOU KNOW, F IS ENOUGH.
AND THEN THEY STOPPED PLAYING IN THE, OKAY, WHAT DID YOU SEE? WHAT WAS YOUR THOUGHT PROCESS? WHAT ARE YOUR NEXT STEPS? OBVIOUSLY YOU REPORT THIS, YOU REPORT THE OFFICER AND YOU RECOGNIZE THE SELF SHOOT IS USING MORE FORCE THAN ABOUT WHAT'S NECESSARY.
UM, AND THAT'S SOMETHING THAT I WOULD WANT TO SAY THAT THE AUDIT DEPARTMENT IS CONTINUOUSLY HAVING OUR CADETS GO THROUGH AS A WELL PLATE OPTION.
NOW, UH, WORST CASE SCENARIO, WE HAVE SITUATIONS STILL TO THIS DAY WHERE OFFICERS ARE ENGAGED IN THOSE SITUATIONS AND WHETHER IT WAS A PURPOSEFUL, UH, EXCESSIVE FORCE OR IF IT WAS SOMETHING THAT THE OFFICER, A WITNESS OFFICER, WASN'T SURE IT WAS PURPOSEFUL.
AND AGAIN, THAT'S WHERE IT COMES BACK TO THE SUPERVISORS AND THE COMMAND STAFF, LOOKING AT THE, ALL THE INFORMATION THEY, AND DURING THEIR INVESTIGATION, THEY'RE DETERMINED WHETHER THAT WAS APPROPRIATE OR NOT.
AND THEN CERTAINLY TAKING THE SPLIT ACTION.
IF IT ISN'T SERGEANT COMBINED, DID YOU HAVE YOUR HAND UP? I DID.
UM, AND, UH, AND, UH, CORPORAL TOUCHED ON IT, WHICH WAS THE SCENARIO.
UM, I WENT THROUGH THE ACADEMY IN 2001.
UM, ACTUALLY I GRADUATED A MONTH TO THE DAY BEFORE NINE 11 HAPPENED, UH, WAS THE DAY THAT I GRADUATED FROM THE AUSTIN POLICE ACADEMY.
AND THAT SCENARIO, UM, HAD BEEN IN THE CURRICULUM EVEN GOING BACK THAT FAR.
UH, IN ADDITION TO THAT, OUR POLICY SAYS, UM, TWO PARTS, UH, ANY, ANY CRIMINAL ACT THAT IS DONE BY AN OFFICER IS INVESTIGATED BY OUR, OUR SPECIAL INVESTIGATION UNIT OR SIU UNIT.
UM, AND THEN ANY VIOLATION OF POLICY IS INVESTIGATED BY OUR INTERNAL AFFAIRS.
OUR POLICY READS THAT SHOULD AN OFFICER AT ANY POINT, KNOW THAT AN OFFICER HAS COMMITTED A CRIMINAL ACT AND FAILS TO REPORT THAT IMMEDIATELY TO SIU.
THAT OFFICER IS SUBJECT TO BEING DISCIPLINED UP TO AND INCLUDING TERMINATION.
IF AN OFFICER WITNESSES, A POLICY VIOLATION COMMITTED BY ANOTHER INDIVIDUAL AND THEY TO FAIL TO REPORT THAT TO THEIR CHAIN OF COMMAND OR TO INTERNAL AFFAIRS, THEY ARE SUBJECT TO BEING DISCIPLINED UP TO AND INCLUDING TERMINATION DEPENDING UPON WHAT THE CIRCUMSTANCES WERE.
SO, UM, YOU KNOW, MARCUS HAD TALKED ABOUT THE FACT THAT THESE VIDEOS ARE RECORDED ALL THE TIME, RAN IT.
WHEN WE FIRST CAME OUT WITH THESE BODY WORN CAMERAS, THEY WERE A NEW TOOL.
WE DIDN'T ALWAYS, UH, WE HAD TO FIGURE OUT HOW THEY WORK.
UM, WE NOW HAVE THEM WHERE IT IS IT, I I'M UNAWARE OF A SITUATION WHERE MULTIPLE OFFICERS WILL GO OUT TO A SCENE AND THERE NOT BE A VIDEO OF IT AT SOME POINT.
AND AS A SUPERVISOR, WHEN I WAS ON PATROL, I HAVE A SUPERVISOR NOW OF AN INVESTIGATIVE BUREAU, BUT I REVIEW MY OFFICER'S BODY WORN CAMERA.
AND IF THEY FAIL TO DO WHAT THEY'RE SUPPOSED TO DO AS, AS VIOLATING IN A VIOLATION OF POLICY OR VIOLATION OF LAW, THEN I AM COMPELLED TO, TO, UH, BRING FORWARD AN INTERNAL AFFAIRS INVESTIGATION AND, OR AN SIU INVESTIGATION.
UM, AND THAT'S SOMETHING THAT'S VERY, VERY STRICT.
SO I WANTED Y'ALL TO KNOW THAT THERE'S THESE CHECKS AND BALANCES.
I AM NOT SAYING THAT THERE'S NOT EVER GOING TO BE A HUMAN ERROR.
AND I AM NOT SAYING THAT WE CANNOT IMPROVE.
THERE'S ALWAYS WAYS THAT WE CAN BE BETTER, BUT I WANTED TO PUT THIS OUT FOR CONTEXT WITH EVERYBODY THAT THERE ARE THESE SYSTEMS IN PLACE.
THOMAS HAD TALKED ABOUT IT BEFORE MARCUS JUST TALKED ABOUT IT HERE A LITTLE BIT, UM, A SECOND AGO, THERE IS THESE SYSTEMS THAT ARE IN PLACE, UM, TO GUARANTEE IT'S TO DO THE VERY BEST WE CAN TO MAKE SURE THAT EVERYTHING IS COVERED.
WE CAN ALWAYS BE BETTER AT LEARNING HOW TO DEESCALATE.
WE CAN ALWAYS BE BETTER AT COMMUNICATING.
UM, THERE'S NO DOUBT ABOUT THAT, BUT, BUT THERE ARE SOME SYSTEMS, SIR, THAT, UH, UH, MR. WEBB THAT ARE CURRENTLY IN PLACE AND WE ARE COMPELLED
[01:30:01]
BY POLICY.SHOULD WE FEEL THAT SOMEBODY HAS USED EXCESSIVE FORCE THAT WE MUST INTERVENE? THAT'S ALREADY ESTABLISHED WITHIN OUR GENERAL ORDERS.
UM, WE ARE IN THE LAST, ROUGHLY 20 MINUTES, UM, AND I THINK THE USE OF FORCE SECTION IS PROBABLY THE DENSEST PART, BUT I DO WANT TO MAKE SURE WE LEECH TO AT LEAST TOUCH BRIEFLY ON THE OTHER PARTS OF THE RESOLUTION.
UM, THE, THE NUMBER THREE IS CHOKEHOLD USE, WHICH I UNDERSTAND IS ALREADY PROHIBITED BY DEPARTMENT POLICY.
UM, AND SO THAT KIND OF FALLS INTO THE IMPLEMENTATION QUESTION THAT WE'RE KIND OF CIRCLING AROUND ON ALL THESE ITEMS. YOU KNOW, WHAT HAPPENS IF AN OFFICER VIOLATES THE POLICY, IF IT'S ALREADY THE POLICY, UM, THE MILITARY EQUIPMENT ITEM, UM, THIS IS A FAIRLY LONG SECTION THAT TRIES TO SPEAK TO THE USE OF MILITARY EQUIPMENT.
UM, MR. ROB, I KNOW YOU'VE GOT THE MILITARY BACKGROUND.
I'M WONDERING IF YOU HAVE ANY INSIGHT ON THIS? NOT YET.
ANYBODY ELSE WANT TO JUMP IN ON THIS? SORRY.
SO I THINK ONE OF, UH, WITH RESPECT TO MILITARY EQUIPMENT, UM, I GUESS IF THERE'S MORE THAN ONE, ONE IS JUST THE AMOUNT OF MONEY THAT, THAT, UH, MUNICIPALITIES GET FROM THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT, RIGHT IN GRANTS.
WE DID A STUDY AND I WAS WELL CHECKING THE DATE.
UM, THAT AUSTIN WAS GIVEN BY THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT FOR THESE, UH, MORE MILLET.
IT CAN EITHER BE TO COMPENSATE OFFICERS FOR OVERTIME PAY OR FOR ACTUAL WEAPON REWRITE.
AND THE AMOUNT WAS, WAS PRETTY STAGGERED.
I THINK IT WAS 2.2 MILLION OR TWO YEARS, WHICH WHEN WE THINK ABOUT WHAT THE ROLE OF POLICE SHOULD BE, THIS INFLUX OF FUNDS FOR THESE MUCH MORE AGGRESSIVE, NOT ONLY IN, IN WHAT THEY DO, BUT EVEN IN LIKE THE SIGNALS THAT THEY SEND TO THE COMMUNITY.
I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT TO KEEP THESE THINGS IN MIND, AS WE DISCUSS, LIKE, WHAT IS THE ROLE OF POLICE? ARE THEY COMBATING THE CITIES THAT THEY ARE MEANT TO PROTECT THEM SERVES? ARE THEY GUARDIANS? AND THIS MILITARISTIC, I THINK, IS PART OF THAT, THAT MILITARIZATION, THAT TURNING THE GUARDIANS INTO WARRIORS THAT I THINK EVERYONE HAS, HAS A DESIRE TO KIND OF SCALE BACK.
SO I DO THINK IT'S IMPORTANT THAT, THAT THE USE OF MILITARY GRADE WEAPONS BE.
I LIKE I WOULD SAY THAT I DON'T KNOW WHAT SORT OF USE LIKE A TINKER CAR FOR EXAMPLE, WOULD HAVE IN THE CITY OF AUSTIN, WHETHER ANY OF THEM WOULD EVER BE APPROPRIATE FOR USE IN A CIVILIAN, IN A, IN A MUNICIPALITY, RIGHT.
WHEN WE'RE TALKING ABOUT OFFICERS MEANT TO PROTECT AND SERVE THE COMMUNITY VERSUS MR. WEBB, WHO'S BEEN IN THE MILITARY, WHO HAS, WHOSE MISSION IS RIGHT TO COMBAT.
UM, SO I THINK IT'S A VERY IMPORTANT AREA TO FOCUS ON.
AND I THINK HOW, AND WHEN, IF AT ALL IT SHOULD EVER BE USED, I WOULD THINK THAT THAT SORT OF FUNDING SHOULD JUST BE ELIMINATED.
BUT I THINK THAT'S SOMETHING THAT'S VERY IMPORTANT TO DISCUSS ABOUT HOW WE THEN TRANSFORM OUR POLICE DEPARTMENT TO AGAIN, TO BE MORE OF A, TO PROTECT AND SERVE, TO BE THE GUARDIANS.
AND I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT TO NOTE THAT THAT PARTICULAR PROVISION OF THE RESOLUTION TALKS ABOUT REDUCING TO THE GREATEST EXTENT POSSIBLE AND FUTURE CONTRACTS REQUIRING SPECIFIC NOTICE TO THE COUNCIL BEFORE THEY'RE APPROVED.
THAT'S A LITTLE DIFFERENT THAN THE OTHER PROVISIONS, CORPORAL JOHNSON.
UM, SO I'M KIND OF IN A BRIDGE, UH, WITH YOU, UH, THE LESS THINGS THAT WE HAVE TO CARRY AND THE LESS THINGS WE HAVE TO HAVE, HAVE TO CREATE THAT KIND OF A MILITARY MINDSET, UM, OR MILITARY MINDSET, UH, AND OUT IN THE COMMUNITY.
UM, THE BETTER, BECAUSE IT MAKES US MORE APPROACHABLE.
UH, I'LL GIVE YOU A LITTLE BIT ABOUT MY CHILDHOOD GROWING UP.
UM, I DIDN'T HAVE A PRISTINE CHILDHOOD OR GREW UP IN THE NICEST AREAS OF TOWN.
UM, I GREW UP IN SOME PRETTY BAD AREAS AND, UM, THERE WERE PEOPLES AT TIMES THAT HAD, THAT WERE IN MY NEIGHBORHOOD THAT HAD BETTER GUNS AND THE POLICE DID.
UM, AND JUST KNOWING MY CHILDHOOD, MY UPBRINGING IN THE AREAS THAT I GREW UP IN, IN FLORIDA.
[01:35:01]
YOU WOULD ALMOST THINK THAT OFFICERS ARE SHOWING UP THE CALLS ARE SHOWING UP THERE IN THE COMMUNITY.THEY WERE OUTGUNNED IN A SENSE, UM, TAKING IT A STEP FURTHER, UM, BEFORE I BECAME A POLICE OFFICER AND EVEN WHILE I WAS IN COLLEGE, UM, WE WATCHED A FEW THINGS.
THERE WAS A BANK ROBBERY THAT OCCURRED IN LA.
THERE WAS, UH, A SITUATION AT EVEN COLUMBINE.
WE DISCUSSED COLUMBINE AT LENGTH WITH, UH, THE TYPE OF FIREPOWER THAT WAS AVAILABLE TO THE INDIVIDUALS IN THAT SITUATION AND HOW IT WAS USED AND HOW THE OFFICERS, THE POLICE RESPONSE WAS AND HOW, IF THE RESPONSE WAS DIFFERENT, THEY COULD HAVE SAVED MORE LIVES CAUSE YEARS AGO, MAYBE MORE THAN TWO DECADES AGO, THE RULE WAS RULES OF ENGAGEMENT WERE, UM, TO WAIT FOR SWAT WHEN YOU HAD SITUATIONS LIKE THAT.
UM, AND I, AND I GUESS I'M REFERRING TO MILITARY CHERRY TYPE EQUIPMENT LIKE RIFLES, OR, UM, UH, MAYBE THE BEST, SOME OF THE HEAVY CARRIER VESTS THAT WE UTILIZE.
UM, AND, UM, EVEN, UH, MAYBE SOME OF THE ARMORED VEHICLES, I KNOW THAT THE UNIVERSITY OF TEXAS HAS A, AN ARMORED VEHICLE THAT THEY UTILIZE THAT IT'S CALLED AN MRI.
UM, BUT WHEN THEY DIDN'T HAVE THOSE TOOLS, AND I REMEMBER THE, UH, LA BANK ROBBERY BACK IN THE LATE NINETIES, UH, THOSE OFFICERS WERE OUTGUNNED.
ALL OF THEM HAD PISTOLS AND SHOTGUNS.
THE GUYS THAT WERE SHOOTING AT THEM HAD AK 47 AND THOUSANDS OF ROUNDS, UH, FAST FORWARD INTO TODAY'S REALM WHERE WE'VE SEEN, UM, POLICE SHOOTING ARE NOT POLICE, HE'S NOT POLICE SHOOTINGS, BUT, UM, SHOOTINGS THAT ACTIVE SHOOTER TYPE SITUATIONS.
I WAS A POLICE OFFICER AT THE UNIVERSITY OF TEXAS WHEN COLTON TOOLEY SHOWED UP AT THE, UH, AIRCAST NIGGA LIBRARY.
AND I RESPONDED TO THAT SITUATION.
SO, UH, SEEING THAT IF THE, IF THE UNIVERSITY DID NOT HAVE THOSE TOOLS NECESSARY TO TRY TO MAKE SURE THAT WE HAD THE OPPORTUNITY TO STOP THAT SITUATION, UM, W WE'RE PUTTING OURSELVES IN DIRE SITUATIONS NOW, UH, THAT APARTMENT HAS RULES IN PLACE.
LIKE OBVIOUSLY OFFICERS ARE NOT GOING TO SHOW UP TO A FAMILY DISTURBANCE, UM, OR SHOW UP TO, UM, A SIMPLE THEFT CALL OR SOMETHING OF THAT NATURE WITH A RIFLE SLUNG AND FULL MILITARY GEAR ON.
UM, OBVIOUSLY THAT'S A PROBLEM AND THAT'S NOT THE IMAGE THAT WE WANT TO PORTRAY OUT TO THE PUBLIC IN THOSE SITUATIONS, BUT A LOT OF THAT EQUIPMENT IS UTILIZED FOR SITUATIONS WHERE WE HAVE TO PROTECT OURSELVES IN ORDER TO PROTECT THE PUBLIC.
AND JUST RECENTLY WE HAD THE, UH, THE AUSTIN BOMBER HERE.
UM, I'M NOT SURE IF THE WHOLE, ALL OF THE LOGISTICS AND WHAT, UH, MILITARY GRADE EQUIPMENT DO YOU WANT TO USE, MAYBE SOME OUTS, UH, CAN, UH, SPEAK TO THAT KNOWLEDGE.
UH, BUT I'M PRETTY SURE WITHOUT ALL OF THOSE RESOURCES, UH, THAT SITUATIONS LIKE THAT WOULD BECOME MUCH MORE DIFFICULT FOR US TO ADD.
CAUSE THAT'S AN INTERESTING POINT AND KIND OF THE, YOU KNOW, KIND OF WITH ALL OF THE THINGS WE'RE DIGGING INTO, DEVIL'S IN THE DETAILS AND YOU END UP TALKING ABOUT A ONE THING.
AND IF YOU'RE NOT REALLY CAREFUL ABOUT HOW YOU, THAT IT SOUNDS LIKE WE'RE TALKING ABOUT IT BEING USED ALL THE TIME VERSUS THE TYPES OF INCIDENCES THAT IN AUSTIN.
AND THEN HOW DO YOU MANAGE WHO, WHO WHAT'S THE CHAIN OF COMMAND OR OUT THE USE OF THOSE THINGS, BUT THAT'S ALL THE LEVEL OF DETAIL THAT THIS CONVERSATION IS HELPING FRAME BOTH FOR THE PUBLIC AND FOR THE MANAGERS.
WE DO THE WORK WOULD YOU EVER HANDLE? UM, I JUST WANTED TO POINT TO SOME DATA.
SO IN 2018, PRINCETON CAME OUT WITH A STUDY FROM THE DEPARTMENT OF POLITICS THAT SHOWED THAT MODERNIZATION, UM, OF POLICE VERSUS FAILS TO ENHANCE BOTH POLICE SAFETY AND PUBLIC SAFETY, AND IT FAILS TO REDUCE CRIME, BUT IT DOES NEGATIVELY IMPACT, UM, THE PUBLIC'S, UH, PERCEPTION OF POLICE AND POLICE REPUTATION IN THE COMMUNITY.
UM, ALSO IT FOUND THAT THERE WAS NO EVIDENCE THAT OBTAINING OR DEPLOYING A SWAT TEAM REDUCES LOCAL CRIME RATES, OR THAT IT LOWERS THE RATES IN WHICH OFFICERS ARE KILLED OR ASSAULTED INTERESTING DATA TO DIG INTO OFFICER JACKSON.
SO WHEN YOU ARE MEETING A SWAT TEAM, THE PURPOSE IS NOT THERE TO PREVENT CRIME, THE CRIMES ALREADY HAPPENING.
SO THAT THAT REPORT COULD IN THEORY BE BIASED BECAUSE WHEN YOU HAVE SWAT YOU'RE, YOU'RE THERE SWATS THERE TO RESPOND TO A CALL THAT'S ALREADY BEEN IN PLACE.
THEY'RE NOT THERE AT NO POINT TO DETER CRIME FROM HAPPENING INTERESTING POINT, AS WE DO THIS WORK, MOVING FORWARD ABOUT WHAT PARTS OF OUR, OUR BUDGET WE THINK WILL REDUCE CRIME RATE VERSUS WHAT PARTS OF THE BUDGET RESPOND TO CRIME THAT'S OCCURRING.
AND THOSE ARE VERY DIFFERENT QUESTIONS AND DIFFERENT TACTICS AND DIFFERENT SYSTEMS ARE GOING TO HAVE TO BE IN PLACE.
THERE'S A LOT OF REALLY INTERESTING STUFF TO DIG INTO OFFICER RIO.
UM, SO I I'LL, I'LL START BY SAYING I'M REALLY HAPPY TO SEE THAT, YOU KNOW, WHAT YOU, WHAT YOU POINTED TO EARLIER THAT THIS, THIS KIND OF SUBSECTION FOR TALKING ABOUT MILITARY EQUIPMENT, UM, DOESN'T OUTLAW IT DOESN'T PROHIBIT IT, IT SAYS Y'ALL THE COUNCIL
[01:40:01]
WANT TO BE MADE AWARE OF THESE, OF THESE PURCHASES.UM, YOU KNOW, I, I TALKED TO SOME OF OUR SWAT, UM, ONE OF OUR MORE SENIOR SWAT SNIPERS EARLIER TODAY, UM, TO, TO PICK THEIR MIND, UH, ABOUT, UM, SPECIFICALLY MILITARY EQUIPMENT.
AND, YOU KNOW, IT'S INTERESTING TO MARK, I WOULD SAY THE VAST MAJORITY OF, OF THE MILITARY EQUIPMENT THAT WE HAVE AT THE POLICE DEPARTMENT, UM, IS STUFF THAT THE CITY HAS PURCHASED.
UM, THE, THE VAST MAJORITY OF THE STUFF THAT WE'VE GOTTEN FROM THE DMR PRO IS, IS, YOU KNOW, I KNOW WE GOT A BUNCH OF LIKE OPTICS AND, AND, YOU KNOW, IT'S, IT'S A DIFFERENCE OF, UM, HEY, COUNCIL MEMBER, FINE.
AGAIN, I WANT YOU TO BE OKAY WITH US SPENDING A THOUSAND DOLLARS ON OPTICS.
SO, SO WHEN OUR OFFICERS DO YOU HAVE TO USE DEADLY FORCE THAT WILL HAVE THAT WE'RE BEING, UM, AS EFFICIENT AS POSSIBLE AND VERSUS, HEY, WE HAVE, WE HAVE THESE SURPLUS OPTICS THAT ARE POTENTIALLY GOING TO COME FROM, FROM THE MILITARY TO SAVE THE CITY SOME MONEY.
UM, UH, MS. ON YOU, YOU MADE A COMMENT ABOUT, UM, ABOUT OVERTIME DOLLARS AND, AND, AND I'M AWARE OF, YOU KNOW, ESPECIALLY LIKE WITHIN OUR ORGANIZED CRIME DIVISION, SOME OF OUR FOLKS ARE, UM, ARE ABLE TO SPEND SOME, SOME OVERTIME, UH, OR WE'RE ABLE TO SPEND OVERTIME DOLLARS THAT ARE GIVEN TO US FROM THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.
BUT I, I GUESS, I, I DON'T, I DON'T FIND THE LINK BETWEEN THIS, UM, THIS PART OF, OF, OF COUNCIL, OF THIS COUNCIL RESOLUTION AND THEN SPENDING ON THOSE OVERTIME BLOCKS.
MAYBE THAT'S A DIFFERENT CONVERSATION FOR US TO HAVE, BUT, UM, YOU KNOW, I I'M, I'M, I'M ALL FOR YOU GUYS WANTING TO DIVE DEEPER INTO, IF WE'RE GOING TO HAVE THESE THINGS WHO'S PAYING FOR THEM, ARE WE GETTING THEM FOR FREE? ARE WE GOING TO PAY FOR THEM OURSELVES? AND THEN, UM, YOU KNOW, JUST TO FRAME THE CONVERSATION, UM, UH, I DO THINK THAT THERE'S A TIME WHERE THE IMAGE THAT WE WANT, UM, IS AN AGGRESSIVE IMAGE, RIGHT? I, I, I JUST, LIKE MARCO SAID, I DON'T WANT OUR GUYS SHOWING UP TO FAMOUS VIOLENCE CALLS.
UM, WHEN THE RIFLES SUNG ON HER CHEST, ONE OF THE WORST CALLS THAT I'VE RESPONDED TO IN MY 14 ANGELES POLICE OFFICERS AND SEXUAL ASSAULT OF A CHILD, UH, WHERE I SAT DOWN IN SOMEONE'S LIVING ROOM AND LISTENED TO A GRANDMOTHER, GIVE ME THE OUTCRY OF HER GRANDSON TALKING ABOUT BEING SEXUALLY ASSAULTED.
LIKE I RECOGNIZE THAT THE FATHER IN ME RECOGNIZES THAT IN THAT MOMENT, I NEED TO BE AS SOFT AND AS TENDER FOR THAT FAMILY AS I CAN BE.
UM, SO YEAH, YOU KNOW, YOU, I WANT OUR PEOPLE TO BE DRESSED APPROPRIATELY.
I WANT OUR PEOPLE TO HAVE THE APPROPRIATE STANCE, BUT I ALSO RECOGNIZE THAT THERE ARE BAD PEOPLE IN THIS WORLD.
OUR BEAR CAT, RIGHT, ARE OUR ARMORED VEHICLE THAT ARE, THAT OUR SWAT OFFICERS USE HAS BEEN SHOT TWICE.
YOU KNOW, SO AT LEAST ON TWO OCCASIONS, WE HAVE SOMEBODY WITHIN OUR COMMUNITY.
THAT'S WILLING TO USE DEADLY FORCE TO ACTIVELY TARGET OUR POLICE OFFICERS.
AND, AND I WILL, I WILL MAINTAIN THAT, THAT THERE, THERE ARE MOMENTS WITHIN OUR VERY, VERY SAFE CITY, UM, THAT WE DO NEED AN AGGRESSIVE IMAGE THAT WE DO NEED THESE AGGRESSIVE TOOLS.
SO PEOPLE UNDERSTAND THAT WE TAKE CRIME SERIOUSLY, AND THAT WE ARE GOING TO INVEST IN THE SAFETY OF OUR POLICE OFFICERS.
AND I THINK, UM, YOU KNOW, AGAIN, IT'S, IT'S THE CHALLENGE FOR US MOVING FORWARD IN THE CONVERSATION IS NOT, NOT ASSUMING EVERY EXAMPLE OR QUESTION IS THE, EVERY CALL IS THAT THING.
AND WHEN WE START TO DIG INTO IN THESE FUTURE WORKSHOPS, YOU KNOW, DIG INTO WHAT THESE NINE ONE, ONE CALLS ARE AND HOW DO THEY BREAK DOWN AT DIFFERENT TYPES OF CALLS, THAT'LL HELP US BETTER REFINE KIND OF BUDGET DECISIONS AND SERVICE DELIVERY THAT CAN MEET THE NEED TO THE TYPE OF CALL.
AND, UM, AND AGAIN, I, YOU KNOW, IT'S ALWAYS THESE CONVERSATIONS ALWAYS A CHALLENGE BECAUSE THE LANGUAGE WE USE IS SO EASILY MISINTERPRETED, YOU KNOW, WHEN YOU'RE A POLITICIAN, YOU'RE KIND OF TRAINED IN HOW TO, HOW TO SAVE THINGS IN A WAY THAT MOST, MOST PEOPLE CAN INTO.
WELL, I DON'T KNOW THERE ARE POLITICIANS NOW THAT DON'T SEEM TO CARE ABOUT THAT, BUT AT LEAST THE ONES IN AUSTIN SEEM TO CARE ABOUT TRYING TO SAY THINGS THAT PEOPLE CAN UNDERSTAND.
UM, AND THAT'S, THAT'S ALWAYS A CHALLENGE, UH, MOVING FORWARD.
AND THE BUDGET QUESTION, UM, I KNOW IT'S COME UP, IT'S COME UP A COUPLE OF TIMES.
UM, CERTAINLY THE COUNCIL HAS DUG INTO OVERTIME, UH, IN ALL OF OUR PUBLIC SAFETY DEPARTMENTS.
AND THERE'LL BE A TIME IN THE FUTURE TO DIG INTO THAT AGAIN, AS WE GET INTO KIND OF THESE CREATIVE AND ALTERNATIVE SOLUTIONS, DEPENDING ON, DID YOU WANT TO ADD SOMETHING?
[01:45:03]
YES.ONE THING TO ADD, AND JUST A POINT TO CLARIFY THE OVERTIME BUDGET.
I, THE REASON I EVEN BROKE IT OUT WAS JUST THE, THE TWO POINT $2 MILLION NUMBER THAT I GAVE TO YOU.
I JUST WANT IT TO BE CLEAR THAT IT MAY NOT BE THAT ALL THAT AMOUNT WENT TO SPENDING ON MILITARY GRADE WEAPONS, RIGHT.
THAT WAS THE POINT OF BREAKING IT OUT.
UM, AND I, ONE THING THAT I DO WANT TO RAISE IN THE SHORT AMOUNT OF TIME THAT WE HAVE IS HOW YOU SEE THIS CONNECTION BETWEEN THIS MILITARIZATION OF POLICE, BUT ALSO THE YOUTH, WHICH HAS NO IN THIS RESOLUTION FOR HIBBETT, RIGHT? NO KNOCK WARRANTS IN TERMS OF LIKE, HOW ARE WE USING OUR SWAT TEAM, WHICH WOULD BE DEPLOYED IN MILITARY GEAR IN THAT STUDY THAT WE DID 79% OF THE INCIDENTS THAT WE STUDIED AND FOLLOWED THE USE OF SWAT TEAMS TO SEARCH A PERSON'S HOME AND OF THOSE 60% OF THE CASES WERE SEARCHING FOR DRUGS.
SO I THINK THAT DATA JUST RAISES THE QUESTION OF IS THAT HOW WE WANT TO BE USING OUR MILITARY GRADE WEAPONRY AND SHOW A FORCE.
I OF COURSE, WOULD SAY NO, BUT I THINK IT'S AN IMPORTANT POINT TO RAISE.
LIKE, HOW ARE WE DEPLOYING IT RIGHT NOW, OFTENTIMES, AND ACROSS THE COUNTRY, I'M NOT SAYING IT'S ONLY AN AUSTIN, RIGHT? IT'S USED TO SEARCH HOMES, IS THAT WHERE WE SHOULD BE FOCUSING? AND, YOU KNOW, IT'S NOT GOING TO BE EASY IN THIS CONVERSATION TO DELINEATE WHEN A NATIONAL STUDY IS DESCRIBING A POLICE TACTIC THAT WE DON'T DO IN AUSTIN, BUT MORE GENERALLY THAT THERE'S A NATIONAL DATA POINT THAT SAYS X.
AND IN SOME CASES WE DON'T DO THAT HERE.
IN SOME CASES, MAYBE IT'S HAPPENED ON A RARE OCCASION, HARD TO GET INTO THAT LEVEL OF DETAIL IN THIS CONVERSATION THIS MORNING.
UM, SAY THAT AGAIN, A BIGGER FRAMING, PARTLY BECAUSE WE'RE CLOSE TO THE END.
WE MIGHT NOT GET TO EVERYTHING.
AND WHAT I HAVE TO SAY IS KIND OF CROSS CUTTING.
I THINK THAT, UM, YOU KNOW, GO BACK TO THE BIG PICTURE QUESTION I STARTED WITH THE REALLY ESSENTIAL QUESTION IS WHAT DO WE WANT POLICE TO BE DOING? UM, WHAT ARE THE HARMS THAT WE SEE THAT ARE CREATED WHEN THEY'RE DOING THAT? RIGHT? AND, AND, AND CAN WE BEAR THEM? AND I THINK THAT, YOU KNOW, BEYOND THE LABEL OF MILITARIZATION, THERE ARE IMPORTANT QUESTIONS TO ASK ALONG THOSE DIMENSIONS, RIGHT? ARE, ARE, DO WE WANT POLICE TO BE DOING THIS FUNCTION? UM, IF WE DO, WHAT DO THEY REALLY NEED TO BE DOING IT? RIGHT.
AND, AND HOW IMPORTANT IS THAT FUNCTION SUCH THAT WE CAN BEAR THE HARMS, BUT THERE'S A, THERE'S A SORT OF FLIP SIDE ASPECT TO THIS TOO.
I THINK IT WOULD BE A MISTAKE TO FOCUS SO MUCH ON, YOU KNOW, EQUIPMENT ISSUES WERE VERY SPECIFIC TACTIC ISSUES AND SORT OF MISS THE, UM, THE SORT OF BROADER QUESTIONS ABOUT HOW SHOULD POLICE INTERACT WITH THE COMMUNITY.
HOW SHOULD THEY THINK ABOUT WHEN FORCE IS NECESSARY AND WHAT LEVEL IT SHOULD BE? UM, BECAUSE THE, THE, THE RISK IS CREATING SORT OF A WHACK-A-MOLE PROBLEM, RIGHT? UM, W IF, IF, IF ONE SEES, YOU KNOW, HARM IN THE RESULTS OF THE WAY IN WHICH WE THINK OF SWAT TEAM SHOWS UP TO A PARTICULAR HOME, RIGHT.
AND IF WE TAKE CARE OF THAT HARM BY SAYING NO MORE MILITARIZED EQUIPMENT, WELL, YOU KNOW, LIKE IT'S EASY ENOUGH TO GET OTHER STUFF, YOU KNOW, AND IT'S EASY ENOUGH FOR THE ENCOUNTER TO BE EQUALLY DAMAGING, RIGHT? WITHOUT IT TANK OUTSIDE, YOU JUST HAVE LIKE CARS, BUT EVERYONE'S KIND OF BRUSHING IN THE SAME WAY, RIGHT? IF THAT'S, IF THAT'S WHAT WE THINK IS HAPPENING, I'M NOT SAYING THAT SWAT TEAMS ARE RUSHING IN AND BAD WAYS.
BUT WHAT I'M SAYING IS, IF WE THINK THAT THERE ARE WAYS IN WHICH POLICING CAN BE IMPROVED TACTICALLY, AND IN WHICH WE THINK THAT WE CAN BETTER OPTIMIZE KIND OF THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE INDIVIDUALS WHO ARE BEING POLICED AND THE POLICE, UM, FOCUSING TOO MUCH ON EQUIPMENT, AS OPPOSED TO THOSE OTHER THINGS, REALLY RISKS, UM, MISSING, BUT THE ESSENTIAL KIND OF SOLUTIONS TO THOSE PROBLEMS. THANK YOU, MISS LONDON.
I THINK THAT'S A GOOD PLACE FOR US TO KIND OF OFFER SOME WRAP UP OPPORTUNITIES FOR, FOR OUR PANELISTS.
THERE ARE A COUPLE OF ITEMS IN THE RESOLUTION WE DIDN'T GET TO WITH A SPECIFIC CONVERSATION, NO KNOCK WARRANTS, FACIAL RECOGNITION, AND ACOUSTIC DEVICES.
AND THERE'S PROBABLY A LONGER CONVERSATION TO HAVE ON THE KNOWN KNOCK WARRANTS.
BUT I THINK FACIAL RECOGNITION AND ACOUSTIC HAS BEEN RELATIVELY FLUSHED OUT AS INAPPROPRIATE.
AND THERE DOESN'T SEEM TO BE A LOT OF DISAGREEMENT, UH, ON THOSE, ON THOSE.
BUT I WANT TO OFFER TO ANY OF OUR PANELISTS, AN OPPORTUNITY TO TAKE A MINUTE OR TWO AND JUST PROVIDE SOME WRAP UP COMMENTS ON THIS ONE.
I THOUGHT YOU DID A GREAT JOB PROVIDING YOUR WRAP UP COMMENTS ON, I'M GONNA CONSIDER THEM YOUR WRAP UP COMMENTS IF THAT'S OKAY.
[01:50:03]
OFFICER JACKSON, UM, JUST REAL QUICK, UM, JUST COMING FROM A GIRL FROM THE, FROM THE HOOD, I GREW UP IN A REALLY ROUGH ENVIRONMENT, WHAT DRUGS COMES VIOLENCE.AND THAT'S A FACT NOT ONLY AS AN OFFICER, DO I KNOW THIS, BUT I KNOW THIS AS A PERSON THAT GREW UP IN VIOLENCE AND GANG BANG AND BEING SHOT AT BEING A, BEING PUT A GUN AT ME BECAUSE I WAS IN THE WRONG NEIGHBORHOOD WITH THE WRONG COLORS.
AND, YOU KNOW, IN ORDER TO BECOME SOMETHING MORE PRODUCTIVE IN SOCIETY, IT'S NOT TO BASH THE POLICE OR THINK THAT POLICE IS WORSE IS TO RECRUIT THE COMMUNITY, MAKE THEM BECOME BECAUSE WHAT BETTER WAY OF BECOMING AN OFFICER AND BEING PROUD OF WHERE YOU'RE FROM THEN BEING REPRESENTING YOUR COMMUNITY, IF THAT'S WHERE IT NEEDS TO START RECRUITING WITHIN THE IT, WITHIN THE COMMUNITY, SHOWING THESE KIDS THAT THERE IS POTENTIAL, THAT THERE IS SOMETHING THAT THEY CAN DO WITH THEIR LIVES.
AND WE'D ALSO LIKE TO PROVIDE SOME SIMPLE COMMENTS, SERGEANT COMRADE.
SO MS. LAUREN, I, I, I WANTED TO KIND OF PIGGYBACK OFF OF WHAT YOU HAD SAID.
I AGREE WITH YOU A HUNDRED PERCENT AS THE, THE OLD DOG HERE.
THE GUY WHO'S BEEN FOR 33 PLUS YEARS, UM, DOING THIS JOB AND, AND STARTING OUT IN MY CAREER WHERE I HAD WHAT WE AFFECTIONATELY CALLED WAS A WHEEL GUN, UM, WHICH IS AN OLD, UH, REVOLVER.
I STARTED MY CAREER WITH THAT UNTIL NOW.
JUST TO KIND OF GIVE YOU A FRAME OF REFERENCE.
UM, I, I AGREE A HUNDRED PERCENT THAT WE NEED TO EXPAND THIS CONVERSATION TO, TO LOOK AT WHAT IS IT THAT THE COMMUNITY HERE IN AUSTIN EXPECTS OUT OF THEIR LAW ENFORCEMENT? UM, FORTUNATELY, UNFORTUNATELY, WHATEVER THE CASE MAY BE, LAW ENFORCEMENT HAS KIND OF BECOME THE JUNK DRAWER, UM, FOR EVERYTHING THAT A LOT OF PEOPLE DON'T WANT TO HAVE TO DEAL WITH IN SOCIETY.
UM, AND THEY'VE ASKED US TO BE THE ONES TO TRY TO FIX IT.
AND, AND THERE'S MANY THINGS THAT WE'RE REALLY, REALLY GOOD AT.
I WON'T BE THE FIRST ONE TO TELL YOU, THERE ARE THINGS WE ARE NOT GOOD AT, AND WE COULD BE BETTER, BUT IF WE CAN, WE CAN REALLY FOCUS ON EXACTLY WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT IN THAT.
WHERE DO YOU WANT US TO PUT OUR ATTENTION WHERE EXACTLY SHOULD THAT LIE? AND THEN LET'S BE THE VERY BEST THAT WE CAN BE AT THAT IS THAT, UM, WORKING IN INTIMATE PARTNER VIOLENCE OR HOMICIDE OR CRIMES AGAINST PERSONS OR ROBBERIES, WHATEVER, UH, GIVE US THOSE GUIDELINES AND LET US, LET US DO THE JOB THAT WE KNOW THAT WE CAN DO INCREDIBLY WELL.
UM, OBVIOUSLY IN A TWO HOUR SESSION, WE CAN'T TALK ABOUT EVERYTHING.
WE CAN'T EVEN BEGIN TO SCRATCH THE SURFACE ON DOC WARRANTS OR THE SWAT TEAM SHOWING UP OR WHICHEVER THE CASE MAY BE AND HOW THAT LOOKS OR HOW THAT PRESENTS, YOU KNOW, UM, AND, AND ANNA SAID, SAID IT GREAT, YOU KNOW, IN REGARDS TO, UH, SHE, SHE IS AN INDIVIDUAL, SHE IS A, A DAUGHTER OF THIS COMMUNITY.
I MEAN, THIS IS HOW SHE CAME TO BE.
UM, AND SHE IS A POWERFUL VOICE.
WE NEED TO LISTEN TO THOSE VOICES, BUT WE REALLY NEED TO GET, AND HAVE SOME HONEST CONVERSATIONS ABOUT WHAT ARE WE DOING MOVING FORWARD IN OUR COMMUNITY AND WHAT IS THAT GOING TO LOOK LIKE? UM, AND, AND I THINK WE CAN COME TOGETHER.
WE'RE CO WE'RE SMART ENOUGH AND WE'RE GIFTED AND WE'RE TALENTED ENOUGH, UM, THAT WE CAN GIVE YOU THE TYPE OF POLICE FORCE, UM, THAT, THAT ALL OF US WILL CONTINUE TO BE INCREDIBLY PROUD OF.
UH, THIS IS A PROFESSION I HAVE DEDICATED MY ENTIRE LIFE TO, I ABSOLUTELY LOVE THIS PROFESSION, BUT I'VE SEEN THE GOOD THAT THIS PROFESSION CAN DO.
I'M NOT SAYING IT DOESN'T HAVE FAULTS, AND I'M NOT SAYING IT CAN'T BE BETTER.
UM, BUT THE COLLABORATIVELY HAVING CONVERSATIONS LIKE THIS, WHERE YOU'RE TALKING TO THE PEOPLE THAT DO THE JOB EVERY SINGLE DAY, UM, NOT NECESSARILY THE PEOPLE WITH ALL THE STARS AND BARS ON, UM, THAT'S, THAT'S WHERE I THINK YOU'RE REALLY GOING TO START MAKING THE PROGRESS IT'S NECESSARY, UH, TO GIVE THE COMMUNITY WHAT, WHAT THEY, THEY, THEY EXPECT AND FRANKLY WHAT THEY DESERVE, UM, AND THEIR POLICE FORCE.
AND, AND, UH, SO THANK YOU FOR COMING ALONG THOSE LINES WITH, WITH WHAT YOU HAD TO SAY.
UH, THIS IS A MUCH MORE EXPANSIVE CONVERSATION WE NEED TO HAVE OVER A PERIOD OF TIME.
THANK YOU, SERGEANT CORPORAL JOHNSON.
I JUST WANTED TO PIGGYBACK OFF WELL, THAT'S OUR CURRENT MINDSET.
UM, I THINK AT THE END OF THE DAY, WE, I REALIZED, AND I'M GLAD THAT WE ALL COME HERE
[01:55:01]
COLLECTIVELY WITH OPEN MINDS, BUT, UH, WE HAVE TO REMEMBER THAT WE SERVE AT THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE IN THIS COMMUNITY AND WE HAVE TO BE MINDFUL OF OUR IMPACT, BUT ALSO WE WANT TO HEAR FROM OUR COMMUNITY, WE WANT THEM TO DIVE INTO WHAT WE'RE DOING AND SAY, HEY, CAN WE DO THIS A DIFFERENT WAY? OR IS THIS A GOOD TACTIC OR IS THERE A BETTER WAY TO DO THIS? UM, BECAUSE THAT ALLOWS US TO EXPAND OUR RESOURCES AND FIND BETTER WAYS TO, TO GROW AS A, AS A POLICE DEPARTMENT.UM, I'LL SAY THAT DURING MY TIME HERE, UH, MATURITY IS WHAT'S HELPED ME GROW INTO THE PERSON THAT THE OFFICER THAT I AM, I'M JUST DOING THIS JOB AND UNDERSTANDING THERE'S MUCH MORE TO JUST PUTTING CUFFS ON SOMEONE THERE'S MUCH MORE TO, UM, UM, GOING OUT THERE AND STOPPING A VEHICLE, INTERACTING WITH PEOPLE, CONNECTING WITH THEM, GETTING THEM TO UNDERSTAND AND UNDERSTANDING WHERE THEY'RE COMING FROM.
THOSE ARE ALL IMPORTANT PIECES.
AND WE HAVE TO BE MINDFUL THAT WE HAVE TO MOVE FORWARD, NOT ONLY JUST AS A DEPARTMENT AND ONLY AS A COMMUNITY, BUT AS A COLLECTIVE TO CONTINUE TO AFFECT SOME TYPE OF CHANGE.
AND HE CORPORAL ANY OTHER COMMENTS OFFICER, I KNOW WE'RE OUT OF TIME.
I JUST WANT TO THANK YOU JIMMY AGAIN FOR INCLUDING US IN THE CONVERSATION.
UM, YOU KNOW, IT MEANS A LOT, UH, TO ME AS THE APA TO, UH, TO BE A PART OF THESE CONVERSATIONS AND, AND, UM, I ESPECIALLY WANT TO THANK THE, UH, THE FOUR PANELISTS FROM THE COMMUNITY.
UM, I KNOW SOMETIMES, UM, PEOPLE SHY AWAY FROM THESE CONVERSATIONS, CAUSE LIKE YOU'VE SAID EARLIER, THEY'RE DIFFICULT TO HAVE AT TIMES.
AND, AND UM, YOU KNOW, I, I CONSISTENTLY TELL FOLKS THAT, YOU KNOW, THE, THE BETTER THAT I CAN UNDERSTAND, UM, WHERE SOMEONE ELSE IS COMING FROM AND THE BETTER THAT THEY CAN UNDERSTAND WHERE WE'RE, WHERE I'M COMING FROM, THE CLOSER TO MEETING EACH OTHER, WE CAN GET AS A COMMUNITY.
SO, UM, JUST ON BEHALF OF THE APA, I THANK YOU FOR, FOR INCLUDING US AND GOLF, SIR.
ANY OTHER FINAL COMMENTS ANY OF THE COMMITTEE MEMBERS WISH TO MAKE ANY COMMENTS OR PRETEND I SEE YOU'VE GOT YOUR CAMERA? UM, NO, I REALLY APPRECIATE THE VERY HONEST CONVERSATION THAT WE'RE HAVING.
AND, UM, I THINK IT'S JUST THE BEGINNING, UH, VERY, VERY INTERESTED IN EVERYTHING THAT EVERYBODY SAID HERE WITH ALL THE PERSPECTIVES AND THIS IS GOING TO BE SO, SO IMPORTANT.
AND, YOU KNOW, I'LL GIVE MY PERSPECTIVE IN THAT.
UM, WHAT, WHAT I HAVE HEARD IS WE DO NEED TO RETHINK HOW WE RESPOND AND, UM, I DON'T THINK THAT IS NEGATIVE FOR ANYONE.
UM, IT'S BEEN AN INCREDIBLY TOUGH POSITION FOR ME AND I'VE SAID BEFORE, UM, CAUSE I COME FROM PUBLIC SAFETY.
YOU, UH, MR. PROMO, AND YOU SAID THAT YOU WERE IN THE POLICE ACADEMY AND NINE 11.
I WAS IN THE FIRE ACADEMY, NINE 11.
SO YOU MAY HAVE RUN UP THE TOWER A COUPLE OF TIMES WITH, UM, WITH EACH OTHER.
UM, AND SO I THINK, I DON'T KNOW HOW WE'RE GETTING THERE AS THIS COMMITTEE.
IT'S AN IMPORTANT FIRST STEP, UM, FOR OFFICER JACKSON, UH, I 100% AGREE WITH YOU, BUT I THINK FOR, FOR, FROM MY PERSPECTIVE, WE HAVE, WE HAVE USED THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM TO SOLVE, TO SOLVE DRUG USE PROBLEMS AND TO SOLVE VIOLENCE THAT HAPPENS IN NEIGHBORHOODS BECAUSE OF THAT.
AND FOR ME, THIS IS RETHINKING HOW WE, HOW WE ALLOCATE LIMITED RESOURCES TO, TO, TO MAYBE SOLVE THOSE OTHER PROBLEMS. SO WE'RE NOT SENDING POLICE OFFICERS IN THERE.
SO WE'RE GETTING TO THOSE ISSUES AND THOSE ARE, THOSE ARE GOING TO BE TOUGH, TOUGH THINGS TO GET TO, YOU KNOW, DRUG USE AND, AND HO WHY WE GET TO DRUG USE, YOU KNOW, UM, UH, FAMILIES THAT HAVE FAMILIES THAT ARE IN PRISON, YOU KNOW, CHILDREN BEING RAISED BY THEIR GRANDPARENTS OR SINGLE MOMS AND THE DIFFICULTIES THAT, THAT, THAT LATINO AND AFRICAN AMERICAN COMMUNITY SPACE.
AND SO, YOU KNOW, THAT'S WHAT, THAT'S, IT'S THIS BIG, BROAD ISSUE WE'RE TRYING TO SOLVE HERE AND, AND, AND YOUR PERSPECTIVES ARE SO, SO IMPORTANT BECAUSE I REALLY FEEL LIKE WE COULD SIT DOWN WITH OUR POLICE OFFICERS AND PROBABLY YOU COULD TELL US LIKE SO MANY CALLS THAT YOU DON'T THINK YOU EVEN SHOULD HAVE BEEN CALLED TO.
AND I KNOW THAT I FELT THAT SOMETIMES AS A FIREFIGHTER, LIKE WHY IS SOMEONE TRAINED WITH MY TRAINING IN THIS SITUATION RIGHT NOW? UM, YOU MENTIONED, UH, OFFICER BURIAL, THE TALKING TO A GRANDMOTHER ABOUT HER GRANDSON BEING SEXUALLY, SEXUALLY ASSAULTED.
IS THAT THE, IS THAT WHAT THE TRAINING THAT OUR POLICE OFFICERS IT IS THAT THE TYPE OF POSITION WE SHOULD BE SENDING TO THOSE KINDS OF THINGS.
LIKE I LOVE WHAT, UM, MS. LAUREN SAID IS THAT IT NEEDS TO, IT'S A BROAD CONVERSATION OF HOW WE DECIDE
[02:00:01]
WHAT OUR RESPONSES AND, AND I THINK THAT THAT'S THE DIFFICULT DISHES DECISION.YOU KNOW, THERE'S ALWAYS GOING TO BE BAD THINGS THAT HAPPEN, AND WE NEED TO KNOW HOW TO RESPOND TO THOSE APPROPRIATELY.
BUT FOR ME, IT'S LIKE, RIGHT-SIZING, I'LL JUST SAY LAST REALLY QUICKLY.
UM, WE HAVE DONE THIS BEFORE WE HIT, WE HAVE CHANGED HOW WE RESPOND TO THINGS BEFORE.
UH, WE CREATED A CODE COMPLIANCE DEPARTMENT, THAT'S LAW ENFORCEMENT, BECAUSE WE THOUGHT WE DON'T NEED TO SEND POLICE OFFICERS BECAUSE A NEIGHBOR'S MAD ABOUT MY NEIGHBOR'S FENCE BEING TOO CLOSE OR NEIGHBORS MAD ABOUT.
I DIDN'T GET A PERMIT FOR MY ROOF.
WE CREATED A DIFFERENT, UM, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE THAT GET PARKING TICKETS, WE'VE CREATED A DIFFERENT, YOU KNOW, LAW ENFORCEMENT FOR THAT.
UH, WE, WE, IT'S MY UNDERSTANDING THAT OUR LAW ENFORCEMENT USED TO DO THE, UM, LIKE STRAY DOGS A LONG TIME AGO, BUT THAT APD USED TO DO THAT KIND OF RESPONSE.
NOW, YOU DON'T DO THAT ANYMORE.
SO LIKE THIS, FOR ME, THIS ISN'T LIKE SOME OUT OF THE BLUE THING THAT WE HAD NEVER DONE BEFORE WE HAVE DONE THIS BEFORE WE HAVE, WE HAVE RECREATED OUR RESPONSE AND RIGHT-SIZED OUR RESPONSE.
AND, AND I THINK WE'RE JUST WORKING OFF THAT AGAIN, YOU KNOW, LIKE EMS USED TO SEND TWO PARAMEDICS TO EVERY CALL.
NOW IT'S NOT ALWAYS TWO PARAMEDICS.
WE'VE, YOU KNOW, WHEN IT COMES TO WHAT THE RESPONSE IS, WHAT THE SITUATION IS, WHAT OUR, WHAT OUR, YOU KNOW, FISCAL SITUATION IS.
AND I, AND I'M CONFIDENT THAT WE CAN, WE CAN DO IT AGAIN.
AND I'M GRATEFUL FOR THESE VERY HONEST CONVERSATIONS.
THEY GIVE ME A PER TIME IF THERE ARE NO OTHER COMMENTS AND I'LL JUST CLOSE BY THINKING ALL OF OUR PANELISTS, UH, MS.
THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR ENGAGING IN A CHALLENGING CONVERSATION.
ONE THAT IS BROADCAST TO OUR COMMUNITY ON TELEVISION AND LIVE STREAM THAT IS NOT EASY TO DO, UH, CAUSE WE'LL HAVE A MADISON.
DID YOU WANT TO ADD ANYTHING? IT'S TURNED ON THE CAMERA? I'M ECHOING THE SENTIMENT OF THE GRATITUDE FOR THE CONVERSATION, BUT I JUST THINK IT WOULD PROBABLY BE A GOOD LOOK AS WE CLOSE.
THANK YOU, COUNCIL MEMBER, AND FOR THE MEMBERS OF THE PUBLIC WHO ARE WATCHING THIS, YOU KNOW, AS I STARTED THIS CONVERSATION, WE WERE NOT GOING TO ANSWER DIFFICULT QUESTIONS TODAY.
THOSE QUESTIONS ARE GOING TO CONTINUE TO BE WORKED OUT.
THERE ARE A LOT OF QUESTIONS ABOUT HOW WE'RE GOING TO, TO, TO MOVE THIS COMMUNITY INTO A PLACE WHERE BOTH OUR, OUR, OUR FIRST RESPONDERS OF ALL KINDS ARE MEETING THE NEED OF THE COMMUNITY, WHERE THE COMMUNITY IS, AND THAT THE TACTICS ARE REFLECTING THE WELL OF THE PUBLIC AS, AS CORPORAL JOHNSON.
SO ELOQUENTLY SAID, UM, I AM EXCITED TO CONTINUE THIS WORK AS CHAIR OF THE PUBLIC SAFETY COMMITTEE.
I COMMIT TO YOU, AND I KNOW MY COLLEAGUES AGREE.
WE WILL CONTINUE TO HAVE THESE CHALLENGING CONVERSATIONS IN PUBLIC.
WE WILL CONTINUE TO INVITE, UH, OFFICERS AND, AND THE FOLKS WHO ARE ACTUALLY DOING THE WORK TO THE CONVERSATION IN ADDITION TO COMMUNITY EXPERTS.
THANK YOU EVERYBODY FOR SPENDING YOUR TIME WITH US TODAY.
AND, UH, WITH THAT AT 4:09 PM.
I ADJOURN THIS MEETING OF THE PUBLIC SAFETY COMMITTEE.